Paper Mario series Discussion

[Moldomré]

This can be used for any possible new Paper Mario game announcements, general discussion about the Paper Mario series, and any thoughts or ideas for a new game that you might have.

So go ahead, talk it up!

 

[Paper Mario]

I love the series.

Of course, when I say "the series" I refer to the first 3. Sadly I don't think we'll be getting anything like those anytime soon. My dream game is one that evolves TTYD's system the way TTYD evolved PM's, and has a story on the level of SPM. Unfortunately Tanabe would rather make whatever is the most papery and crafty at the expense of RPG elements and a developed world that defined the earlier games.

 

[Koopa con Carne]

I'd rather them take elements from both... err, forms. A new game should first of all have the battle system of the original two games (the "battle system" in the third one felt unfitting for the RPG genre, and the one from the latter games is... ugh... completely unnatural and absurd even for in-universe standards).

BUT, I'd go for as much papery and crafty stuff as Color Splash had. Make everything work like it belongs in a stopmotion animation.

I can't say definitely what I want in the story since I haven't played all Paper Mario games, and so cannot make a definitive comparison. From what I make out, the one on the GC felt like it took inspiration from Jules Verne's and Agatha Christie's novels. I think this direction would be good enough for the series, as I'm not one for edgy complicated anime plots.

 

[Koops]

It's anice series, and while the last games ain't perfect, Color Splash beats TTYD in some aspects. I don't know which of the two is best really, since I need to actually play them to judge, but in the end, it does get more hate than it should.

Whatever the case, however, I am interested in seeing what the next game will do.

 

[Ray Trace]

I think the first one is much better than Thousand-Year Door. I didn't like the stage and audience mechanics in Thousand-Year Door, the roulette and random effects were annoying enough to influence my opinion of the game. I also didn't like how every action required some command, especially for Tattle. While I do appreciate how partners have their own health, but I vastly prefer the simplicity and straightforwardness of the original.

I also think the original game had far more satisfying and better sound design, with also having better music. The best case in point is the Zap Tap badge. In the original, it gave a satisfying sound effect whenever enemies get hit by it while in Thousand-Year Door, it's nothing more than a small tap.

 

[Freddie Freaker]

Unfortunately Tanabe would rather make whatever is the most papery and crafty at the expense of RPG elements and a developed world that defined the earlier games.

Wasn't it Miyamoto that made the requests for a majority of the stuff people hate to happen, and Tanabe just told the Paper Mario team to do them?

 

[Ray Trace]

I think what Miyamoto said was to use only Mario's world and not make it a Thousand-Year clone. I think what Tanabe did was apply that suggestion far too extreme, though. Nowhere did Miyamoto suggest that Mario's world would be as cookie-cutter with its worlds as possible, nor did he say to omit all friendly NPCs ever made barring Toads.

People like to exaggerate Miyamoto's hand in making Sticker Star suck. And it's not only just the world-building that sucked. I doubt Miyamoto said to make the gameplay as unsatisfying as possible.

 

[Koops]

Level design is actually a pretty strong aspect in both Sticker and Color Splash though, one of TTYD weak points tbh.

Most of the "rooms" in TTYD are just straight paths with enemies sprinkled on top. Well, outside the Chapter dungeons, but you get what I mean.

 

[Mcmadness]

the first 2 make good entry points for the genre.

 

[Moldomré]

Color Splash improved upon Sticker Star greatly, and I honestly like Color Splash more than the original Paper Mario. However, TTYD can never be topped; unless of course, they make a new game in the same being as TTYD with graphics the same as Color Splash, as Super Radio pointed out. I'd say that if they ever abandon the Card/Sticker system that they'll make more money from that game than from CS and SS combined!

 

[Ray Trace]

You know what I don't like about the partner system from the games? The party members are little more than walking, talking tools who become irrelevant outside of the chapter they are introduced in. Thousand-Year Door barely patched it with them spouting some one-liners every now and then. Wouldn't it be great if they developed the characters further, hell, making them interact with other party members more? I'd like to see Goombario's attitude towards Kooper become explored more than a few lines of Tattle dialogue, for example.

 

[Teedgee]

You know, because of the fact that Paper Mario Switch might be coming next year, maybe it will be special, because Paper Mario will be 20 years old at that time. Maybe it will be a throwback at all the previous paper marios (except sticker star).

 

[Mcmadness]

I wouldn't hold your breath for anything special.

 

[Koops]

You know what I don't like about the partner system from the games? The party members are little more than walking, talking tools who become irrelevant outside of the chapter they are introduced in. Thousand-Year Door barely patched it with them spouting some one-liners every now and then. Wouldn't it be great if they developed the characters further, hell, making them interact with other party members more? I'd like to see Goombario's attitude towards Kooper become explored more than a few lines of Tattle dialogue, for example.

Yeah. That.

Or honestly sticking with one partner allows for that one partner to be developped in many ways, whereas with multiple partners, each one of them has to have something special.

 

[Moldomré]

You know what I don't like about the partner system from the games? The party members are little more than walking, talking tools who become irrelevant outside of the chapter they are introduced in. Thousand-Year Door barely patched it with them spouting some one-liners every now and then. Wouldn't it be great if they developed the characters further, hell, making them interact with other party members more? I'd like to see Goombario's attitude towards Kooper become explored more than a few lines of Tattle dialogue, for example.

I'd definitely want some partner expansion. Maybe instead of having your partners captured a la TTYD, just have Mario himself captured for a chapter. That way they can expand upon each partner's personality by having them interact with each other.

Something I'd like in the imminent Paper Mario anniversary game (see Miles Tails Prower) is four different main characters, as in SPM. Maybe they go Lego Marvel Superheroes 2 by having each character and a couple partners go by themselves to find one of the *whatever they are that you have to collect*.

 

[Czario]

I've only played Super Paper Mario. It was a good but flawed game imo, which is similar to my opinion on Super Mario Sunshine. SPM had a lot ideas that I really liked (such as the Underwhere, the destruction of the Sammer Kingdom, and having a darker tone overall), but it also had a lot of bad level design and some ideas that were poorly executed (such as the Overthere and the item system). As far as gameplay goes, it was a fun puzzle-based platformer with some RPG elements when the levels were designed well. When they weren't designed well, it got tedious, confusing, and frustrating. So yeah, a good game that could be better.

As far as other Paper Mario games, I want to play TTYD sometime when I get a chance to pick it up, and I might play the original at some point as well. The most recent two I'm not so interested in because of their poor reception.

 

[Moldomré]

As far as other Paper Mario games, I want to play TTYD sometime when I get a chance to pick it up, and I might play the original at some point as well. The most recent two I'm not so interested in because of their poor reception.

You've absolutely, 100%, MUST get TTYD. You haven't lived a complete life without it.

As for the recent two, form your own opinion. Although no one said that they were amazing, they are actually pretty good. If you're big on (slightly) dense storyline and witty dialogue, go for Color Splash. If you want Bowser and Luigi to never say a word, go for Sticker Star. However, if you don't like games that inadvertently discourage you from entering battles, forget about either. Simply a matter of taste and, once the game is completed, opinion.

 

[Dr. Peach]

I have to say that The Thousand Year Door and Super Paper Mario were the two of the best Paper Mario games. They were like masterpieces. They're like the Rondo of Blood and Symphony of the Night of the Paper Mario series for a weird analogy out of my head. They are among the best Mario RPGs of all time. It's a shame Sticker Star transformed and fucked the entire Paper Mario series. Either ways, I hope Nintendo makes the next Paper Mario game awesome or if they go back to its roots by making a remake of the first Paper Mario and remaster TTYD. That would be a great way of restoring Paper Mario to its former glory. Or maybe give us another SOTN style Paper Mario, that is in the style of Super Paper Mario. Either way works fine.

 

[Paper Mario]

I have 0 confidence in anything more than what Tanabe hinted at (another "Super Mario family"-only borefest) until I see evidence of clear changes in direction since that interview. I really hope that happens, since many have pointed out that a lot of other series that had been going off the rails or being not as well received have delivered more of what their fans want in the Switch era. But IDK, I still feel like Tanabe is going to be the one dev to keep being stubborn if he returns. I really wish Ryota Kawade could come back to the series. If anyone could bring it back to how it used to be, it would be him.

Actually the fact that they went out of their way to imply that Paper Mario characters aren't part of the Mario family, is what really felt like a stab in the heart. There's just so many great characters that are now in limbo, exclusive to a series that won't use them, I can't support that direction no matter how much they keep improving the 'new' formula. It may eventually become something good, but that doesn't make it Paper Mario, and it may as well be a new IP at this point.

 

[Dr. Peach]

I have 0 confidence in anything more than what Tanabe hinted at (another "Super Mario family"-only borefest) until I see evidence of clear changes in direction since that interview. I really hope that happens, since many have pointed out that a lot of other series that had been going off the rails or being not as well received have delivered more of what their fans want in the Switch era. But IDK, I still feel like Tanabe is going to be the one dev to keep being stubborn if he returns. I really wish Ryota Kawade could come back to the series. If anyone could bring it back to how it used to be, it would be him.

Actually the fact that they went out of their way to imply that Paper Mario characters aren't part of the Mario family, is what really felt like a stab in the heart. There's just so many great characters that are now in limbo, exclusive to a series that won't use them, I can't support that direction no matter how much they keep improving the 'new' formula. It may eventually become something good, but that doesn't make it Paper Mario, and it may as well be a new IP at this point.

Well, I am hopeful too. I just hope Nintendo listens to all of us in that we want a great Paper Mario game, not a mediocre/half decent game like Color Splash or a total shitbomb like Sticker Star. Nintendo really needs to get its act together and have a better team to deliver a good Paper Mario game. It needs to bring Paper Mario back to its roots while expanding greatly upon it just as what Odyssey did to 3D Mario by also expanding and re-inventing it after the direction it had went after Galaxy (which was a groundbreaking pinnacle in the series) by becoming more linear and adding elements of 2D Mario into the mix.

 

[winstein]

I love how the Hammer works in Colour Splash, where instead of just being more powerful and non-contact than the Jump, it has additional splash damage. That means the enemies behind the target will be able to take damage with enough impact, giving it an additional advantage. This is an unpopular opinion, but I always felt like Jump is far superior than Hammer because there exists Charge, and the increase in Jump's power is practically greater than Hammer since it hits multiple times, and there's the fact that Jump can target in the older games. Also, a Badge can be used to protect backfiring damage such as Spike Shield, making Hammer even less essential in battles. With this change, I can see myself using Hammer as an alternative since there is a more practical purpose with hammering stuff in battle (defeating multiple enemies more easily).

Although the vocal Paper Mario fan have their distaste on the newer Paper Mario games, preferring to just have newer entries continue from the first three games and ignoring the newer two, I hope that they incorporate the great stuff that they did with the newer entries instead of abandoning them, because there are some new things that are quite great:
- Things. If you don't know what a Thing is, it's basically a powerful item based on real life things that allows the player to progress and have significant advantages, such as using a table fan to create wind. Every "Thing" is very amusing and their animation sequence don't last long, but they produce great effects. I think that they could work similar to the Crystal Stars and Star Spirits from past games (think of it like Summons from Final Fantasy games) where the player can use them for a battle advantage, but are not tied to the plot so the player can use any Thing they want when they found them. It's just that I found the things have quite a personality that they should be the way for powerful attacks.
- Keep/improve the paper aesthetic: One thing that Colour Splash managed to do very well is that they made every level felt like they can be touched, since everything is either made of paper or real-life objects. It makes the world very nice to look at, and provides a strong case of what a HD Paper Mario game should look. It's amazing to see this aesthetic evolve starting from Thousand Year Door, actually.
- Varied level design and theme in every level: The level-based approach used in the two newer Paper Mario games is something that makes a level memorable, and it's nice to see that the developers are quite creative in level designs. Colour Splash went out of the way to make each level be based on something different, so as an example, in the orange levels, you have a valley, a temple, a garage, a restaurant and a train. Not that the earlier Paper Mario games are lacking in them, but I suppose the variety is very much appreciated.
- World Map for location traversal: It can be nice to travel from one spot to another to enjoy the scenery, but that can get tedious if done repeatedly. Having a world map is a good way to make the journey between one spot to another less cumbersome.
- Enemy quips: In Colour Splash, enemies sometimes make comments while you are taking your turn, which is a very nice touch and I hope carries over. Just for fun, maybe have a command where one can force the enemy to make their comments.
- Enemy recruitment: The idea that you can choose a certain enemy to be your ally is great, but Colour Splash didn't go all out with this idea since they can only be used for one regular battle. I hope that like Pokemon, Paper Mario can collect most enemies and choose his partner.
- Concept Art Gallery: Colour Splash did something that no Paper Mario has done - they showed us how certain characters were designed before they were finalised, which is a very nice treat since Mario games don't usually have pre-release concept art.
- Better communication in localisation: Something I have admired about the latest Paper Mario is how the localisation team is in touch with the developers, based on USGamer's interview with Risa Tabata: "it's very difficult to translate jokes, so rather than having the localization team just translate Japanese jokes, we worked very closely to make sure that the English writers actually came up with jokes that work in English, jokes that would be funny in this market. And I think the creativity of the localization team is on display". This is not related to why fans didn't like the modern Paper Mario (after all, we've got the Yakuza to Mafia change in Thousand Year Door, which I am sure is delightful), but I just thought that the more freeway communication is better for this series.

Thank you for reading.

 

[Mcmadness]

I have 0 confidence in anything more than what Tanabe hinted at (another "Super Mario family"-only borefest) until I see evidence of clear changes in direction since that interview. I really hope that happens, since many have pointed out that a lot of other series that had been going off the rails or being not as well received have delivered more of what their fans want in the Switch era. But IDK, I still feel like Tanabe is going to be the one dev to keep being stubborn if he returns. I really wish Ryota Kawade could come back to the series. If anyone could bring it back to how it used to be, it would be him.

Actually the fact that they went out of their way to imply that Paper Mario characters aren't part of the Mario family, is what really felt like a stab in the heart. There's just so many great characters that are now in limbo, exclusive to a series that won't use them, I can't support that direction no matter how much they keep improving the 'new' formula. It may eventually become something good, but that doesn't make it Paper Mario, and it may as well be a new IP at this point.

Well it's not like they were getting used even back then. Beyond cameos all PM characters were one and dones.

 

[Moldomré]

I love how the Hammer works in Colour Splash, where instead of just being more powerful and non-contact than the Jump, it has additional splash damage. That means the enemies behind the target will be able to take damage with enough impact, giving it an additional advantage. This is an unpopular opinion, but I always felt like Jump is far superior than Hammer because there exists Charge, and the increase in Jump's power is practically greater than Hammer since it hits multiple times, and there's the fact that Jump can target in the older games. Also, a Badge can be used to protect backfiring damage such as Spike Shield, making Hammer even less essential in battles. With this change, I can see myself using Hammer as an alternative since there is a more practical purpose with hammering stuff in battle (defeating multiple enemies more easily).

Although the vocal Paper Mario fan have their distaste on the newer Paper Mario games, preferring to just have newer entries continue from the first three games and ignoring the newer two, I hope that they incorporate the great stuff that they did with the newer entries instead of abandoning them, because there are some new things that are quite great:
- Things. If you don't know what a Thing is, it's basically a powerful item based on real life things that allows the player to progress and have significant advantages, such as using a table fan to create wind. Every "Thing" is very amusing and their animation sequence don't last long, but they produce great effects. I think that they could work similar to the Crystal Stars and Star Spirits from past games (think of it like Summons from Final Fantasy games) where the player can use them for a battle advantage, but are not tied to the plot so the player can use any Thing they want when they found them. It's just that I found the things have quite a personality that they should be the way for powerful attacks.
- Keep/improve the paper aesthetic: One thing that Colour Splash managed to do very well is that they made every level felt like they can be touched, since everything is either made of paper or real-life objects. It makes the world very nice to look at, and provides a strong case of what a HD Paper Mario game should look. It's amazing to see this aesthetic evolve starting from Thousand Year Door, actually.
- Varied level design and theme in every level: The level-based approach used in the two newer Paper Mario games is something that makes a level memorable, and it's nice to see that the developers are quite creative in level designs. Colour Splash went out of the way to make each level be based on something different, so as an example, in the orange levels, you have a valley, a temple, a garage, a restaurant and a train. Not that the earlier Paper Mario games are lacking in them, but I suppose the variety is very much appreciated.
- World Map for location traversal: It can be nice to travel from one spot to another to enjoy the scenery, but that can get tedious if done repeatedly. Having a world map is a good way to make the journey between one spot to another less cumbersome.
- Enemy quips: In Colour Splash, enemies sometimes make comments while you are taking your turn, which is a very nice touch and I hope carries over. Just for fun, maybe have a command where one can force the enemy to make their comments.
- Enemy recruitment: The idea that you can choose a certain enemy to be your ally is great, but Colour Splash didn't go all out with this idea since they can only be used for one regular battle. I hope that like Pokemon, Paper Mario can collect most enemies and choose his partner.
- Concept Art Gallery: Colour Splash did something that no Paper Mario has done - they showed us how certain characters were designed before they were finalised, which is a very nice treat since Mario games don't usually have pre-release concept art.
- Better communication in localisation: Something I have admired about the latest Paper Mario is how the localisation team is in touch with the developers, based on USGamer's interview with Risa Tabata: "it's very difficult to translate jokes, so rather than having the localization team just translate Japanese jokes, we worked very closely to make sure that the English writers actually came up with jokes that work in English, jokes that would be funny in this market. And I think the creativity of the localization team is on display". This is not related to why fans didn't like the modern Paper Mario (after all, we've got the Yakuza to Mafia change in Thousand Year Door, which I am sure is delightful), but I just thought that the more freeway communication is better for this series.

Thank you for reading.

1. You're from Europe! You used "colour"!

2. Man, your points are solid. I do not disagree with a World Map, which surprises myself! I definitely do not disagree with Level Design, Paper Aesthetic, and your view on Things. One thing I want to keep from Color Splash is the ability to hammer at an angle, rather left, right, down, and up. Enemy quips and recruitment I don't really like that much. I'd rather have the classic partner system.

 

[winstein]

1. You're from Europe! You used "colour"!

2. Man, your points are solid. I do not disagree with a World Map, which surprises myself! I definitely do not disagree with Level Design, Paper Aesthetic, and your view on Things. One thing I want to keep from Color Splash is the ability to hammer at an angle, rather left, right, down, and up. Enemy quips and recruitment I don't really like that much. I'd rather have the classic partner system.

Actually I am a Malaysian, a Commonwealth country, so we use British English as a standard. Although most people on the internet tend to use US English, I stick to the British spelling because I choose to, even though the title is not like that (even in Europe, it's officially called "Color Splash").

I don't mind the classic partner system, but I just like the idea that I can have any enemy as my partner. For example, Dry Bones could make a cool partner for throwing bones, fire resistance and their occasional reassembly, which would probably be unsuitable as a classic partner since they can revive on their own (though they aren't out of place for how Paper Mario 64's partner system works).

Thank you for reading.

 

[Ray Trace]

- Enemy recruitment: The idea that you can choose a certain enemy to be your ally is great, but Colour Splash didn't go all out with this idea since they can only be used for one regular battle. I hope that like Pokemon, Paper Mario can collect most enemies and choose his partner.

I thought of Shin Megami Tensei instead.

Well if Paper Mario wants to be better, should take cues from JRPG games like it, huh.