Your headcanons

Jazzi

certified cringe, 7 days a week
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The Paper Mario book in Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam does not host the actual universe of the Paper Mario series, it’s just a crappy fanfiction.
My thoughts exactly! Since the book only seemed to be referencing Sticker Star I headcanon the first three Paper Marios actually happened in the main canon and the book was probably made by Peach with her Wish powers.

So Mr. L is from main canon I don't make the rules.
 

Koopa con Carne

Don’t call me Bushwick.
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I don't object to post-Sticker Star games happening in the same "canon" as the original three. It's just Mario & Luigi's paper stuff that I discount because the game parades itself as a crossover with a partner RPG series while making zero effort to properly homage that series. There's no recognition of it beyond the usual Mario cast showing up in their paper designs.
 

Mcmadness

The idiot who puts things in the wrong board.
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The usual Mario cast in their paper designs isn't exactly a small amount of characters you know.

Unless you actually expect a mid budget video game series to actually manage to have all those old characters and the copies of the main ones actually appear and do something important beyond just showing up and being like "hey we exist, we won't do anything at all but we exist" and have a cohesive narrative that isn't a complete mess.
 

Koopa con Carne

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what you say is exactly what the developers claimed in an interview on Miiverse: they wanted to work with more established characters so they have a lighter workload in a relatively short timeframe. (I have the memory of a gas particle and misremember what I read previously, please excuse this display of wrong factuality.)

that said, it's no secret the game doesn't actually pay homage to Paper Mario other than Sticker Star and the paper characters don't seem to do anything from that series gameplay wise, just generic paper moves.

IDK i'm basing this one on reviews. i haven't played the game lol
 
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Mcmadness

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It wasn't so they'd have a lighter workload, it was because when they tried to do that it became a convoluted mess, the opposite of what a simple rpg series should be.

Plus the game never once claimed it was trying to pay homage to the Paper Mario series at large, it was a game about the bros teaming up with Paper Mario, as in the guy Paper Mario, I have no idea why people assume this would have brought back a bunch of old characters when said old characters don't even reappear in their original series beyond the occasional cameo.
 

Shmaluigi

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If it wasn't trying to pay homage to the Paper Mario series then what was the point of making it? The only paper characters with any story relevance are Mario, Peach, Bowser, Junior, and Kamek, and none of them even have a role that's not just exactly what their M&L counterpart does in the story. (Yeah, they're the same characters with the same personalities, but is that really the best you can do with them?) Other than that, Luigi appears in a cameo and there's enemies and generic Toads. The M&L series hasn't had a problem with a decently sized cast before, but all we get for this crossover is a bare bones story of "Bowser kidnapped Peach, again!" and a few of the characters have a duplicate hanging around with them.
 

Mcmadness

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To make a game with a third character and to use as many gameplay ideas they could come up with with said third character.

Thats how the whole game originally started.

Plus M&L stories were always barebones, heroes teaming up to defeat a team up of their arch enemies is a fairly basic 101 cross over scenario.
 

Koopa con Carne

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Them focusing on gameplay doesn't excuse a lack of creativity in the character department. The devs of Super Mario Odyssey have gone on record saying they put a lot of focus on worldbuilding to complement the gameplay, and the end result, as many of us can attest, was a lovely experience. These two elements are not mutually exclusive, especially when proper worldbuilding has proved time and again to benefit Mario games significantly.

I'm sure Paper Jam is a fun game with Nintendo's seal of quality and all that jazz, but, as with Sticker Star, some people would have liked a more derivative type of worldbuilding than what's present in your usual Mario spin-off.

And that's okay.

I personally think SPM's overarching character design is egregious but I'll always support more daring, unique ventures like this one over the decision to recycle countless, nameless, boring Toad NPCs that at most differ through a hat.
 
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Shmaluigi

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There's a difference between "bare bones" and "bare minimum". Creating the most basic Mario story that's already been done time and time again, only now some of the characters have a copy of themselves hanging out with them and playing the exact same role in the story, is bare minimum. Say what you want about M&L's plots but at least they've tried to be interesting (an evil witch wants to awaken a magic artifact, aliens invade the Mushroom Kingdom and also there's time travel, some weirdo takes over the kingdom and it's up to Bowser of all people to save the day, something something evil dream man). Sure, they're not always the most groundbreaking stories, but they're not doing the most trite things possible.

Also, "it's never been that great anyway" is a terrible defense for anything, honestly. If there's something that can be improved, then improve it. Don't use that as an excuse to let it wallow in poor quality, and absolutely do not make it even worse!
 

Koopa con Carne

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wait they have??? thats so cool i love worldbuilding
From the Super Mario Odyssey article on Mario Wiki (citations available on the original website):

Super Mario Odyssey's theme is highly focused on "surprises" and "travel," and the developers incorporated many of their travel experiences around the world.[18] For instance, elements of the Sand Kingdom were derived from Kenta Motokura's experiences during a trip to Mexico, and the Luncheon Kingdom's food aesthetics was inspired by Italy and other European countries.[22]

The developers recognized that when people travel to foreign countries, something that really has an impact is the different currencies. Therefore, they wanted to have Mario collect and use different regional coins in each kingdom. Since the player travels outside the Mushroom Kingdom, the diverse art style between all the different kingdoms aimed to recreate the feelings of surprise and discovery when visiting foreign lands. It was also noted that a lot of time was spent in getting the right balance between familiar Mario concepts and completely new ones.
We all know how terrible the game turned out will all this totally complementary attention to detail....................

Now, granted. This stuff took off as a need to contain the core mechanic of capturing enemies in a sandbox environment, and only further developed through a sort of domino effect. I agree gameplay is definitely something that should be championed first and foremost in a Nintendo game. However, worldbuilding, while not necessary in Mario games, makes the difference between the serviceable, if somewhat bland and disappointing (New Super Mario Bros.) and the excellent.
 
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Mcmadness

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There's a difference between "bare bones" and "bare minimum". Creating the most basic Mario story that's already been done time and time again, only now some of the characters have a copy of themselves hanging out with them and playing the exact same role in the story, is bare minimum. Say what you want about M&L's plots but at least they've tried to be interesting (an evil witch wants to awaken a magic artifact, aliens invade the Mushroom Kingdom and also there's time travel, some weirdo takes over the kingdom and it's up to Bowser of all people to save the day, something something evil dream man). Sure, they're not always the most groundbreaking stories, but they're not doing the most trite things possible.

Also, "it's never been that great anyway" is a terrible defense for anything, honestly. If there's something that can be improved, then improve it. Don't use that as an excuse to let it wallow in poor quality, and absolutely do not make it even worse!
Ah yes, the ol "because the other ones were different from the usual stuff, that meant they had more effort in them" despite them still being extremely basic scenarios that have no more depth to them then the usual kidnapping scenario.

Look, the Mario & Luigi game plots have never been worth a crap for the stories in of themselves, what made them entertaining was the personalities of those involved and when it came to that Paper Jam has no less effort put into it than any other Mario & Luigi game. It just didn't have any new faces attached to them.

Also another thing that amuses me is that people always get so hung up on the "kidnapping peach" part of the plot when Paper Jam was ironically one of the few Mario & Luigi games where Peach is rescued only 3 quarters into the game with the real emphasis being put on recovering the book the paper people come from and stopping the Bowsers from conquering the world with their new souped up flying fortress.

Side note, not sure why Odyssey is being brought up when the M&L series has never had that level of "world building" and again is a mid budget light hearted rpg series compared to Odyssey being a large budget console game.
 

Koopa con Carne

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Odyssey was brought up to illustrate that good worldbuilding can enrich a game.

Mario & Luigi games may not be at the same scale as Odyssey, but from what I've seen the series still has a lot going for it in that area. Yes, new faces, new characters help make a game more fresh.

Look, you shouldn't feel cornered for liking more vanilla stuff in Mario. It's perfectly fine to. But don't deflect arguments that have never been made just to justify that your vision is "more right". I never said Odyssey is on the same level as M&L.
 
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Mcmadness

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I just find the notion of a Mario based crossover rpg actually making use of the primary characters of the franchise as "bad" ridiculous.

Like if you told me the game has too many mini games, the locals are kinda boring or that the game just wasn't fun then I'd get it but what characters it uses? Nah I don't see it, especially since more often then not the best characters in the M&L games were the long timers.
 

Ultra Violet

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AlphaDream was in a declining state at that time so idk I wouldn't be surprised if the declining budget was the reason Paper Jam's universe felt bare-bones and cookie-cuttery at points.
 

Striker Mario

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I'd like to have an immerisve Mario game with a big cohesive world to explore, that being said. I only realize this after having played Breath of the Wild but as the plumber. Odyssey is nowhere near that scale but it provided a taste of the open nature of it? No other Mario games really do this. I'm not expecting it, as it's not Mario's style, but it'll be cool!
 

zelen !!

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speculative biology nonsense incoming
i was talking about this on the mario wiki discord but, a few days ago, i somehow came up with this thing of piantas trees being... not real trees at all and they cant do plant things at all. this species name is a lie. basically its some structure that mainly serves for thermoregulation, as they evolved in a hot climate (i.. guess because they apparently did primarily live on mountains as the superstar baseball bio implies). so the leaves is their skin and they have muscles. for the leaves. yeah enjoy that
i think it just evolved to mimic trees for whatever reason. better disguise?
why does the tree have different colorations, and potentially has a flower, depending on the gender i Do Not Know. i guess it was just a combination of sexual selection, disguising with different trees for different niches, and "idk it just happened that way i guess". i also have no explanation for the tree spinning it just. Does, Inexplicably, which is funny i think

and yet despite all this stuff i still havent figured out just what kind of vertebrate (i decided to headcanon them as vertebrates to make this easier on myself) they are
 

J-Yoshi64

Always remembering Walkazo
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I imagine it helps shield from the sun.
 
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