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Project M is more elaborate than other mods, but I still don't call it a separate game. In the end, it's still a mod. But you know, mods can become entirely different games, see Dota and Dota 2.
Super Smash Bros. for Wii U & 3DS Discussion
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Mods sometimes steal from the spotlight though, and they may make pirating easier, but a game with mod support is nearly always a plus. I think mods increase sales of a game in general though.
Glitchy Bowser Jr.
"Stuff it, sponge brain!"
Project M is pretty fun since it makes it easy to add whatever the hell I want to the game. I don't consider it seperate, in the end, you're still using a Brawl disc.
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It's bugging me that people consider Project M a separate game. I think in the end, it's still just a really elaborate Barlw Mod despite how popular it is.
That being said, I rather the modders focus their development efforts into Project M before they start doing anything to Smush, but I do look forward seeing Smush get modded in the future.
That being said, I rather the modders focus their development efforts into Project M before they start doing anything to Smush, but I do look forward seeing Smush get modded in the future.
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- Ray Trace
It's not a separate game in the single slightest. You're required to own a copy of Super Smash Bros. Brawl in order for it to work, and since its framework is utterly dependent on Brawl, calling it its own separate game is like calling the different game mode mods in Gmod their own separate game. Or Newer Super Mario Bros. a separate game. They're not.
Dota and others may started out as mods, but they're certainly their own dependent game that doesn't require a copy of the original game they're based off of to run properly.
At most, it's its own entity since it does give out significant gameplay/aesthetic changes, but people need to stop lumping Project M as its own separate Smash title alongside the other Smash Bros. games. Otherwise, I may as well say Newer Super Mario Bros. Wii is the best New Super Mario Bros. game.
Dota and others may started out as mods, but they're certainly their own dependent game that doesn't require a copy of the original game they're based off of to run properly.
At most, it's its own entity since it does give out significant gameplay/aesthetic changes, but people need to stop lumping Project M as its own separate Smash title alongside the other Smash Bros. games. Otherwise, I may as well say Newer Super Mario Bros. Wii is the best New Super Mario Bros. game.
Crypt Raider
9 more seasons
Games are defined by their set of rules, not their platform. You cannot reasonably say custom NSMB levels or Brawl stages are as merited as Project M's entire rework of how the game is played. Furthermore, Project M has an absolutely massive following for a mod and a much larger competitive scene than Brawl. It has a lot of merit to be compared to other Smash titles in this regard. Dota as a Warcraft 3 mod was almost as popular as the core game and was treated as its own entity at conventions and tournaments, for the exact same reason, which is why it was entirely reasonable to port it to a modern game engine with literally no changes in characters, the map, or gameplay.
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Elaborate "set of rules".
Also, this an appeal to popularity. Just because it's super popular doesn't make it its own game per se. It's treated as separate because it's an entire package of mods that changes most of the framework of the original game aimed toward establishing a presence in competitive play. Dota eventually became its own thing, separately sold from Warcraft, but back then, it's considered a mod and not a separate game.
Newer Super Mario Bros. is not "just a custom bunch of New Super Mario Bros. levels". It has an entire new soundtrack (which doesn't even use the original .brsar of New Super Mario Bros.; it uses .er files, essentially .brstms in a similar framework to the .brstm framework in Super Smash Bros. Brawl), new enemies and powerups (which aren't mere reskins of existing ones), an overhauled world map, new tilesets, a new title screen, a drastically different boss fight, and several other things. It's arguably elaborate as Project M, since both are drastic changes but with the basic game foundation intact.
Also, this an appeal to popularity. Just because it's super popular doesn't make it its own game per se. It's treated as separate because it's an entire package of mods that changes most of the framework of the original game aimed toward establishing a presence in competitive play. Dota eventually became its own thing, separately sold from Warcraft, but back then, it's considered a mod and not a separate game.
Newer Super Mario Bros. is not "just a custom bunch of New Super Mario Bros. levels". It has an entire new soundtrack (which doesn't even use the original .brsar of New Super Mario Bros.; it uses .er files, essentially .brstms in a similar framework to the .brstm framework in Super Smash Bros. Brawl), new enemies and powerups (which aren't mere reskins of existing ones), an overhauled world map, new tilesets, a new title screen, a drastically different boss fight, and several other things. It's arguably elaborate as Project M, since both are drastic changes but with the basic game foundation intact.
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I'd argue that Newer Super Mario Bros. Wii is a rework of New Super Mario Bros. Wii as much as Project M is to Super Smash Bros. Brawl, since it contains a completely different world map, a completely new power-up (the hammer suit), new music files that don't replace pre-existing NSMBW music, different title screen, different HUD, etc. With ASM hacks, you can literally change how any game is played in any way you want. For example, there's a New Super Mario Bros. Wii ASM mod that plays similarly to Mari0, a Portal inspiration, where Mario can shoot portals from a portal gun similar. I don't think scale should count to compare Project M to official games, as it just so happened to be highly popular.
And really, as long as its dependent on an official copy of Brawl to fully function, it really cannot count as its separate entity, but an offshoot of Brawl. It will never not depend on Brawl, because if it does, then that's where it's illegal.
Project M is probably one of the best mods out there, if not, THE best of Brawl mods. The only way you can compare it is to other mods, like Brawl -, Brawl +, Balanced Brawl, or whatever, and it clearly outshines all of them. But to compare it to official games, that's where the line gets more muddled.
And really, as long as its dependent on an official copy of Brawl to fully function, it really cannot count as its separate entity, but an offshoot of Brawl. It will never not depend on Brawl, because if it does, then that's where it's illegal.
Project M is probably one of the best mods out there, if not, THE best of Brawl mods. The only way you can compare it is to other mods, like Brawl -, Brawl +, Balanced Brawl, or whatever, and it clearly outshines all of them. But to compare it to official games, that's where the line gets more muddled.
Crypt Raider
9 more seasons
The rules of which you follow to play/compete? This should be obvious.Dr. Mario said:
I'm not suggesting Project M wouldn't be it's own game if it wasn't popular, I'm saying the rework it does to the core game is significant to call it it's own game, even if it runs off of Brawl. It has merit to be compared to the other major titles because of it's popularity.Dr. Mario said:
Project M isn't just new characters and stages, I'm arguing the core gameplay is what separates it, and unique stages coming with the main mod means its part of the main mod. The mod is notable and worth comparing as separate from Brawl because of the popularity, not because it's suddenly a standalone game because of the vast playerbase. But we clearly have very different opinions of what makes a game a game, so I'm going to stop discussing this.
Sorry to add my two cents, but just because a mod edit was re-worked so much that the framework and tons of other things are different doesn't make it it's own separate thing. No matter how great - or bad - a mod may be, it still is not part of the series. Nintendo didn't make it, or acknowledged it as part of the franchise. So when talking about the Smash Bros. series, it's going to be lumped with Brawl because it's fan-made. It's non-canonical to the series. However, that does not mean that it's not just as significant or important as the actual game, or that it doesn't have its own merits. It just means that it's not a real Smash Bros. game.
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Yeah.Lapis Lazuli said:
Smash Bros. probably doesn't even have a canon, but I see your point. Even if Nintendo acknowledges the existence of this game by attempting some copyright takedown (while blatantly violating Lewis Galoob Toys, Inc. v. Nintendo of America) or even saying "Hey, we endorse this product", it's still a mod.
Then it has the same rules as any Super Smash Bros. game? What does this have to do with its being a mod or not?Groden said:
I never argued that it's "just new characters and stages". But in the end it's still a mod by altering the core game's engine and requiring this game to even function.Groden said:
Again, you're making a classic case of an appeal to popularity. Just because it's popular doesn't suddenly make it different from other mod packages such as Brawl- and Newer Super Mario Bros.. So I see your argument as flawed, despite your different viewpoint on it.
I disagree. A mod is like swapping out engine parts or adding some or removing some. Why do you not think Newer Super Mario Bros. and Garry's Mod gamemodes and the New Super Mario Bros. version of Mari0 are separate games?Groden said:
GalacticPetey
Donkey Kong
The reason it's considered a separate game is that it has a massive following, bigger competitive scene than some real Smash games, entirely reworked physics, and a whole different group of fans than its base game.
Crypt Raider
9 more seasons
Being a unique game and being a mod aren't standalone. But I'm glad at least Petey gets it.
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I've said this for the millionth time that this is an appeal to popularity, at least a slight variation of it. The reason that this argument is flawed is that it has no bearing on the definition of a mod or a game and it focuses on its popularity. "Reworked physics" is the only argument that is kind of valid, but these physics is the same engine but with some variables changed and some framework being altered to accompany, say, the new stamina modes. That's the reason I don't consider it its own game. What hammers the nail in the coffin is that it's entirely dependent on Super Smash Bros. Brawl to function.GalacticPetey said:
GalacticPetey said:
Separate fan-made game? Yeah, sure. But as soon as it gets compared to the other Smash games, it's just a mod.
@LGM: By canon, I just meant about which characters/items/stages were added/removed to the series and all that jazz, since Project M has all kinds of things that aren't in the series that they added/removed.
GalacticPetey
Donkey Kong
Tournaments run it as a separate event and under a different name. It's its own game.
Stargazing
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The only reason why they run it under that is because it's really popular and people will get upset if it isn't listed. I also do have a feeling that the tournaments you're talking about aren't run by Nintendo.GalacticPetey said:
It needs Brawl to run. At this point in time, without a Brawl disk, you can't play (not counting emulators and other stuff that's probably illegal). I will classify Project M as its own game when Nintendo actually wants it to exist. Removing Miiverse posts that even contain "PM" doesn't give me a sign that Nintendo wants it. I will also classify it as its own game when it is given its own disk where it is not dependent on another game to run.
Sure, framework, characters, new items, and everything is nice and snazzy, but at the end of the day, it is just a Brawl mod.
This has probably already been said, but I just want to throw it out there. I'll leave now.
Stargazing
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Oh, I didn't actually know that.Baby Luigi said:
GalacticPetey said:
Oh yes, the almighty tournaments. I'm sure that having a modded game played there makes it completely official, even though it's still dependent on having a Brawl disc in it. I am so sorry that I even underestimated the merits of Project M and that if it appears in a tournament that it automatically makes it a game. Nope, has nothing to do with it just being a popular modded game that it's a lot easier to label it by itself than having to draw out things to people that already know about it.
GalacticPetey
Donkey Kong
Tournaments have more power and sway in the community than a few bitter people on a message board. They're treating it as its own game.
