Far-Fetched Suggestions for the next SSB Game...

Koops

King of cowards.
But it wasn't explicitly stated...

In other words, you're being the pessimistic one...

Even though it's realistic that there won't be any non-3rd party, it doesn't rule them out completely... but yeah of course with your mindset of "Sakurai mistreats Kirby" you are going to have all that pessimism.
 

Doctor Healmore

Shine Sprite
Poll Committee
Look, the most reasonable and likely possibility is that the DLC is all third party. This whole mindset of "oh, they didn't explicitly say it, they only remotely implied it, so something else is still technically possible" is overly optimistic and you're just setting yourself up for disappointment.
 

Marie

If you find any good Marie fanart, send it here!
I think the door is still open for non-3rd party DLC characters; after all, we got Corrin in Smash 4 (even if that was mostly for marketing). If you're thinking of that quote from Reggie, I thought that people were misinterpreting the quote to mean only 3rd-party characters were coming, though I don't remember the quote exactly so I can't say for sure.

Also, I think you're reading into Sakurai's actions (or lack of actions) too much. People often try to get into Sakurai's mind and figure out his motivations, but there's really no way to tell what he's thinking unless he says it outright. I doubt he's specifically against Bandanna Dee; there's loads of characters that seem like great choices but still don't get in. You do have a point about Kirby representation being limited to only a few games though, as it seems like an inordinate amount of Kirby's representation comes from Kirby Superstar.
 

Wittgenstein

TLW-728 Supercomputer Prototype
They pretty much said it would be new to Smash in the same way Joker is, so I'm fully expecting them to all be from currently-unrepresented and probably third party franchises for that big mainstream media boom. But for those of us who wanted characters already in Nintendo's realm that's just pretty much a nail in the coffin. But there's always next game.
 

winstein

Justice is not limited, it is a universal quality
DLC is very likely third-party because we have to remember they are selling them separately rather than being part of a package. Famous third party characters being playable is a huge selling point, as they tend to be unexpected yet exciting picks. Even back in Smash 4, Corrin is practically the outlier because he's neither a veteran nor a third-party character, and even then, he/she's from Fire Emblem, which was and still is enjoying a revitalised popularity plus his/her game was released not long. If there were a first party character it would certainly be a very unexpected one especially if it's not an Assist Trophy promotion.

Not counting Minecraft since it's now a Microsoft-owned IP, the choice of an indie character is going to be interesting assuming one is in the cards (and I hope so if Nintendo chooses the characters). Assuming that characters that already has spirits won't get playable status, that rules out Shovel Knight and Shantae. I am personally wishing that one of the DLC packs is basically indie representation as a whole, since they like to crossover each other. So you have Spirits of characters like Rusty (Steamworld), Cadence (Crypt of the Necrodancer), the player character from Golf Story, Hue (Runbow) and Curly (Cave Story). In lieu of this, choosing the playable character would be a very difficult pick, but I vote for Commander Video on account that he is the first indie character to appear on Smash, not to mention how unlike most indies, he debuted on a Nintendo system first.

LeftyGreenMario said:
Which series doesn't Sakurai mistreat??? :eek:
I imagine they are series that don't get a lot of games, due to how they proportionally have less to mistreat so have a smaller chance to do so. Take Ice Climber, which I felt got treated royally despite only starring in one game (or two if you think the VS version is a separate game), and yes, those two weren't in Smash 4 but all in all they are very well-treated. Then there's Kid Icarus which got playable representation in Brawl and went on to have a game by Sakurai, and his vision of Kid Icarus has undeniably became the default view of the series.

Thank you for reading.
 

Mcmadness

The idiot who puts things in the wrong board.
Dream Stone Spirit said:
Well, he's basically vetoed with how Sakurai's been blowing him off like this. Kirby is very poorly represented in the Smash universe, with Sakurai's three games getting heavy representation while other Kirby games are treated like they don't exist. Bandana Dee, being the fourth playable character in the Kirby franchise, and being the perfect fourth rep for the franchise, has been completely blown off because he didn't debut in one of Sakurai's three magic games. He's already been essentially deconfirmed for Ultimate with the DLC being all third-party and such. And he's not getting in any future Smash games as long as Sakurai's against him like this. His only hope is if Smash gets a new director, and while Sakurai's a great director and the series just wouldn't be the same without him, the Kirby series is just so mistreated in Smash, and it irritates me.
Yeah the Kirby series is really mistreated the way it......how?
 

Doctor Healmore

Shine Sprite
Poll Committee
Mcmadness said:
Dream Stone Spirit said:
Well, he's basically vetoed with how Sakurai's been blowing him off like this. Kirby is very poorly represented in the Smash universe, with Sakurai's three games getting heavy representation while other Kirby games are treated like they don't exist. Bandana Dee, being the fourth playable character in the Kirby franchise, and being the perfect fourth rep for the franchise, has been completely blown off because he didn't debut in one of Sakurai's three magic games. He's already been essentially deconfirmed for Ultimate with the DLC being all third-party and such. And he's not getting in any future Smash games as long as Sakurai's against him like this. His only hope is if Smash gets a new director, and while Sakurai's a great director and the series just wouldn't be the same without him, the Kirby series is just so mistreated in Smash, and it irritates me.
Yeah the Kirby series is really mistreated the way it......how?
I know you might be thinking that Kirby has a bit too much presence in Smash, as do many others, but that's really only partly true. It's actually only three Kirby games in particular: Dream Land, Adventure, and Super Star. Fittingly, those three are the ones that Sakurai himself directed, alongside Nightmare in Dream Land (remake of Adventure) and Air Ride (Kirby racing spinoff). But if it was directed by someone else? Like Shimomura's Dark Matter Trilogy or Kumazaki's modern games? They're out of luck. If it's not one of Sakurai's games, it gets nothing other than a couple spirits or music tracks; no fighters or stages or anything. Those are all from Sakurai's Magic Three. Consider the newest Kirby game, Star Allies. You would think it would get a lot more Smash representation, being the newest, but no...it gets a single spirit and a single music track. That's it. And Planet Robobot before it? Two spirits and two music tracks. Still not much.

My point is that currently, while Smash is under Sakurai, Bandana Waddle Dee, a perfectly deserving character as a fighter, is getting the same treatment as some super obscure Kirby villain from a Japan-only game. Why? Because Sakurai had no part in the modern Kirby games, and seemingly doesn't care about them for that reason. He clearly cares about Super Star, and he pays a little attention to Dream Land and Adventure, but everything else gets the silent treatment. Including Bandana Dee.

Yeah, sorry for the text wall and the long rant, but what can I say?
 

Mcmadness

The idiot who puts things in the wrong board.
Yeah, thats why it has all that music from games he had nothing to do with. Or that Kirby's FS is based off a game he had nothing to do with.

I'm going to need proof that Sakurai is actively holding back Kirby games he had nothing to do with beyond baseless assumptions.
 

Doctor Healmore

Shine Sprite
Poll Committee
Mcmadness said:
Yeah, thats why it has all that music from games he had nothing to do with. Or that Kirby's FS is based off a game he had nothing to do with.

I'm going to need proof that Sakurai is actively holding back Kirby games he had nothing to do with beyond baseless assumptions.
Those two examples you mentioned are it. You make it sound like there's more. But there isn't. What, your backup plan is Dedede's FS? Well, there's absolutely nothing beyond that.

Also, I already brought up the music. Return to Dream Land actually has a decent amount of music, at least. But everything else? Triple Deluxe gets three. Planet Robobot gets two. And Star Allies gets only one. Even Rainbow Curse, which has the objectively best soundtrack of any game to exist on the face of this planet, gets a whopping ZERO tracks! Compare that to the ten tracks that Dream Land gets. The four that Adventure gets. Or the eight that Super Star gets. If that's not terribly unbalanced and a very poor representation of the series as a whole, then I don't know what is.
 

Mcmadness

The idiot who puts things in the wrong board.
Yeah and some series barely get even that many from ANY games.

Kirby's gotten plenty of shit, the only thing he hasn't gotten is a new character since Brawl.
 

winstein

Justice is not limited, it is a universal quality
Dream Stone Spirit said:
Mcmadness said:
Yeah, thats why it has all that music from games he had nothing to do with. Or that Kirby's FS is based off a game he had nothing to do with.

I'm going to need proof that Sakurai is actively holding back Kirby games he had nothing to do with beyond baseless assumptions.
Those two examples you mentioned are it. You make it sound like there's more. But there isn't. What, your backup plan is Dedede's FS? Well, there's absolutely nothing beyond that.

Also, I already brought up the music. Return to Dream Land actually has a decent amount of music, at least. But everything else? Triple Deluxe gets three. Planet Robobot gets two. And Star Allies gets only one. Even Rainbow Curse, which has the objectively best soundtrack of any game to exist on the face of this planet, gets a whopping ZERO tracks! Compare that to the ten tracks that Dream Land gets. The four that Adventure gets. Or the eight that Super Star gets. If that's not terribly unbalanced and a very poor representation of the series as a whole, then I don't know what is.
Tell me about it: I know how you feel about Kirby's unbalanced representation. To elaborate: Mario Party hardly got represented in Smash. It never had a stage, only 3 songs that covers 2 recent games, hardly any representation in Stickers/Spirits (only 1 original character until a special event with 3 from Super Mario Party) and generally not mentioned in descriptions. In general the older Mario Party games tend to be ignored yet Mario Kart's old and new games are represented.

I felt that Mario Party more than deserve proper representation mainly because it's an indispensable spin-off series for Nintendo for not only consistently selling well, but also for being a unique type of party game that is still being made (Smash tends to include unique parts of Nintendo history in a significant way).

Thank you for reading.
 

Dr. Eggman

I am the enemy, I will succeed
winstein said:
(only 1 original character until a special event with 3 from Super Mario Party)
Even then, the Golden Mushroom is supposed to represent Mario Kart more then Mario Party, meaning we really only got two new Mario Party spirits in that event.
 

Dr. Mario

Mushroom Kingdom's OG Woo Meister
winstein, that question I posed was actually a rhetorical lead-up, as I was under impression Kirby was treated fairly well and reasonably.

I have to disagree on the "mistreatment" argument. See, I was making the case for Mario being mistreated too, even though you guys say, "but Mario has tons of playable characters, tons of stages, 3 hours+ worth of music, tons of spirits", but then I point to gaps in the coverage in the Mario spinoffs, the Mushroomy Kingdom stage being a nuclear wasteland, the voice direction for practically all Mario characters being shit, the boring Mario Finale, the Negative Zone (yeah that was a thing), Mario treated like a literal punching bag in move demonstrations. I was still dissatisfied with what I got because what I got wasn't perfect.

Honestly, in the end though, I just want Mario characters to have a better voice and a working Final Smash (which was working in 4 but terrible in Smash Ultimate).

The same thing probably applies to Kirby as well. I think in Kirby's case, Sakurai was being really choosy with what he had and what he thought best represented Kirby. I think the lack of spinoffs (beyond Air Ride and Mario Kart) isn't really a Kirby problem, it's a recurring problem throughout Smash Bros., and I don't think I can actively blame Sakurai for it as more as I can blame the self-limiting nature of crossovers. It's a shame Mario doesn't get a single track from Mario Strikers and barely anything from the other Mario sports or Mario vs Donkey Kong, but I think we'll be complaining all day about rather minor grievances and will be constantly setting up ourselves for disappointments.

And people were complaining about Metroid having only two characters for the majority of Smash's lifespan, and Metroid repeatedly gets lava stages.

And people were complaining about DK's mistreatment as King K Rool was also absent for the same amount of time, and DK always gets Jungle Stages and 20 bajillion "remixes" of the DK Jungle theme. And DK and Diddy sound like shit. I think that one may be one of the more legitimate ones, especially King K Rool's absence, but there are some elements of "ahh, it's not perfect, so they're being mistreated".

And people were complaining about Fire Emblem having tons of sword fighters and they had a generic shit stage being Castle Siege, and how there's no variety in the Fire Emblem characters, even though others counter that Fire Emblem is overrepresented and deserves hate by jealous fans of DK and Metroid or something.

And people were probably complaining about the Gee Wun reps and want more gen variety. I myself find the music selection to be pretty weak, just a lot of battle songs (yeah it's a fighting game but Persona shows that such tracks don't have to be so homogeneous), but again, it's not like Pokemon is known for having amazing soundtrack.

I guess this just comes when series start getting big and get more playable characters. With small series, you are just happy you got anything at all. No one is complaining about the lack of Ice Climber playable characters or the lack of Mother playable characters. Or at least, not as loudly as fans from the bigger series.

Oh well, just mod the game. People are working on it, and once SaltyNX is out and that patching nonsense is history, you can add all your favorite tracks in the game. It's still a crying shame that Nintendo hates this sort of thing when people seek fine solutions for problems they have with a game.
 

Mcmadness

The idiot who puts things in the wrong board.
LeftyGreenMario said:
it's not like Pokemon is known for having amazing soundtrack.
Uh, yeah it is. I mean shit look up pokemon music on youtube and they generally have like, gajillions of views.
 

Dr. Mario

Mushroom Kingdom's OG Woo Meister
Oh wow, I guess I'll have to keep that in mind when it comes to unpopular opinions on Pokemon then. I recall not being at all impressed with Pokemon Let's Go's soundtrack, and I still stand by that all the battle themes start sounding homogeneous gen after gen. I'm sure the reason I like the older tracks is from nostalgia. The reason I guess people like the battle themes is that they get to hear those tons of times during a playthrough and music is that thing where if you hear it enough times, you start liking it more.
 

Koops

King of cowards.
That's the way you recognize a good or bad song.

Listen to it continuously. If you're not easily bored, it's good.

Like I don't know how much times I have listened to FE Attack!, yet even with how much I heard the original version and the remix, I still think it is the best Smash remix.
 

Dr. Eggman

I am the enemy, I will succeed
Pokemon can have good music at times, but it's definitely not a series that has a soundtrack that I'll keep on coming back to.
 

Mcmadness

The idiot who puts things in the wrong board.
LeftyGreenMario said:
Oh wow, I guess I'll have to keep that in mind when it comes to unpopular opinions on Pokemon then. I recall not being at all impressed with Pokemon Let's Go's soundtrack, and I still stand by that all the battle themes start sounding homogeneous gen after gen. I'm sure the reason I like the older tracks is from nostalgia. The reason I guess people like the battle themes is that they get to hear those tons of times during a playthrough and music is that thing where if you hear it enough times, you start liking it more.
That's because you're mostly going by the smash bros renditions which homogenize then a bit.

For example have a listen to this.

 

Dr. Mario

Mushroom Kingdom's OG Woo Meister
a furry said:
That's the way you recognize a good or bad song.

Listen to it continuously. If you're not easily bored, it's good.

Like I don't know how much times I have listened to FE Attack!, yet even with how much I heard the original version and the remix, I still think it is the best Smash remix.
I like or dislike songs after a first few minutes of listening, and I do sometimes want to give songs a fair chance by listening through, but yes, sometimes songs start getting repetitive to listen to and gets worse when tracks start sounding the same. I actually play Smash Bros. For long periods of time. Most songs do start homogenizing actually; they just can't be sustained on loop for 17 minutes straight. And a lot of smash Bros songs aren't super fun to listen to stripped from their video game context.

I do like some songs mind you, like the "remix" DK level song from Ultimate. I think the new Persona "remix" isn't horrible or didn't make me denounce as inferior to the original immediately (unlike Snake eater or Steven's theme), but that thing is freaking sped up from the original. Just stop, composers, please stop speeding up tracks. And also, Smash developers, stop fucking calling your new tracks "remixes", you're making people learn the completely wrong terminology and making you developers look like you know nothing about music.

Guzma's track is great, I just needs vocals imo, that's what I feel is missing. But it's a good break from the typical wild Pokémon battle. Notable characters are allowed leeway in more unique songs, which I feel helps a whole lot when standing out. So that's probably why battle songs feel the same until they throw a curve ball song. Which again, this works best in the context of the game. Smash Bros probably just doesn't do a good job with the songs.

But again, can we have more hip hop tracks in Smash? Mass Destruction is a great start, but I like more.
 

Dr. Eggman

I am the enemy, I will succeed
If you check the details of a "Remix" by pressing X or checking the notes underneath the song while playing it in the Sound Test, it says 'Arranger' or 'Arrangement Supervisor' before the arrangers name, proving they know that the songs are actually arrangements but refuse to use the correct term.
 
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