Unpopular opinions about the Mario series

ChristmasDinner

The Red-Nosed Dayzee
Okay I think a better comparison is that someone that grew up on Panda Express proclaims that Chinese food is great because of Panda Express, but doesn't realize that the authentic stuff absolutely floors it. But you don't want to try authentic because it doesn't have as much beef compared to veggies, has unfamiliar ingredients like offal (beef tendon, pork feet, chicken paw), tung ho, sichaun peppercorn, lotus, duck meat, fermented bean curd, steamed eggplant rather than broccoli and red pepper.
If they don't want to they don't have to

You're entitled and you won't harm anyone, but it's been stated that the opinions you form work only within a very narrow scope and you're going to find those that disagree with you. Those opinions are built on a more thorough bed of experience, and you need to accept it rather than reinforce your opinions.
But in the specific opinion I'm presenting in this thread this is not relevant for said reasons.

I've said this several times before but I am not arguing that Super Paper Mario has the most deep plot I've ever seen in anything, just in Mario games imo.
Tbh there is a difference between a subjective opinion and an objective one; the former case is completely my own choice to make, in the latter I can still make comparisons within Mario games, but not outside of them barring the very limited range that I have played. E.g. to say "Super Mario Galaxy has the most refined controls of all Wii games" would not be a justified argument from me because I haven't played close to all Wii games, but to say "SMG controls > DKCR controls" is justified (given further reasoning) as I have played them both.
 

Jolly DönerMax

Super Smashed Brother
Didn't say they have to. No one is forcing them. They're entitled to express an opinion but that opinion is also entitled to be challenged. That's what makes debates fun! Even unpopular opinions should be challenged, however. It's just that this thread gives it a bit of a safe disclaimer so people aren't as quick to judge, but it doesn't mean your opinions are immune to being contested.

There are no "objective" opinions. Everything is subjective and relative, colored by personal experience and biases. Saying a game runs with 60 fps with 1024x512 textures and has 60 levels is objective. Saying it runs smoothly with nice textures and has a great amount of levels would be subjective. Even comparison would be subjective here unless you're comparing raw numbers like one game has a higher texture resolution than the other. Knowing that difference will help you form your opinions while also being more tolerant of others. That being said, some opinions are more grounded than others and you still need to support your opinions with reasoning and evidence.
 

ChristmasDinner

The Red-Nosed Dayzee
See my comment under "John's semi-professional opinions."

The extent to which I like any game is influenced by personal biases, but objective judgements are attempts to step away from that bias as much as possible and consider the dev's choices and the properties of the game that make it fulfilling from a rational and less biased perspective. Whilst a human being such as myself could never achieve a perfectly objective judgement, as we cannot help being at least slightly biased, I do not view trying as either impossible or insensible.
 
I think my comments in my fav character list explain my opinions enough do they not? And the fact that this game has an existent story is more than can be said for a lot of Mario games.
No, they don't. It doesn't constitute a deep story.

First of all, WHY is Dimentio a psychotic jester to begin with? It was never explained. He's just power hungry just for the sake of it. He's pretty much a guy who's like "lol I'm the main villain now". Compare this to his direct inspiration, Kefka. Now, I haven't played Final Fantasy 6, but after reading the synopsis for him in his Wikipedia article, he experimented with Magitek, which made him powerful, but the imperfect process corrupted him over time. When he got more powerful, the more nihilistic he got, the bigger his motivations got over the course of the game. THAT is a dynamic character whose motivations gradually evolved over the course of the game. THAT is a far deeper character than Dimentio. You can see how Kefka evolves throughout the game, and how he became corrupted. By comparison, Dimentio is a discount variant of him that pretty much copies his psychotic bits and left out everything else about him that made him compelling.

As for the Tribe of Darkness, it was created because of a random evil Pixl or the Pixl Queen for no reason that was evil for literally no reason other than the exposition dump needed to explain all of this shit or that they read an evil book and....oh my god it's so fucking stupid. All of this serves as boring exposition, and it sucks. Why the fuck is there even an evil book to begin with. Who cursed it? Who decided to write it? Why wasn't it burnt Fahrenheit style? Why are there wars fought over a fucking book? How were the wars like? What were the countries like?

Do you see where I'm getting at? I'm only scratching the surface here. The story isn't deep. Neither are the characters. I've read your piece about Count Bleck on your site. He's literally just a heartbroken destroyer. He's evil but he has a motivation behind it. That's...congrats you have a basic foundation on how to write a compelling villain. He has two traits going for him: loving Timpani, and not giving a crap anymore because of her. His entire character arc is literally only about Timpani. He doesn't have any other interests or goals in life. He doesn't have any other family or friends. What is his personality outside of being tied to a girl's loss?

I said, it's completely fine to like its story. Many people do like it, more power to them. Many people felt emotional about the plight of Count Bleck. What I don't think is fine is to say something it's not. It's not a deep story, and its characters are basic foundations, but that's really all they are.
 

ChristmasDinner

The Red-Nosed Dayzee
Well my life is quite busy right now but I'll have to write a rather long response to that.

I found one by FTG here which I more or less agree with: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fqc7kenkVSAuqSJRrWLVCIBSQOQe34RGzqKDwHpbJlQ/edit

Again I think it ultimately needs to be decided what the purpose of our discussion is but I get that you're trying to argue that Super Paper Mario's plot isn't deep (i.e. having a lot of content, being thought-provoking, having emotion, invoking philosophical thought.) And I'm saying that sure, FF6 is probably deeper, but I had never so much of heard of Kefka until reading your comment this evening, so Dimentio truly felt a lot more mysterious when I first encountered him as a child. This kind of plot being in a Mario game gives it a unique charm that has touched my heart as well as no doubt tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of others that have played SPM and loved it for its story. I'm not saying it's deep by movie standards, book standards, or wider RPG standards: I'm saying it's deep by Mario standards and that's why I love it so much.
 
Last edited:
My unpopular opinion is that I'm not tired of it. I enjoy long-winded discussion like this. Just as long as it doesn't devolve into personal attacks, in my unpopular opinion I think it's fine.

I was about to explain why I think prophecy plots suck ass but maybe I should just hold it off and talk about how everyone should play Sonic Adventure 2, but with Mario in it.

20191108205050_1.jpg


Or play GTA V, but with Baby Luigi conducting a heist on a bank.
 

Hibiki Tachibana

Gekisou Gungnir
Forum Moderator
Chat Operator
Core 'Shroom Staff
Awards Committee
Poll Committee
eh, it just feels unproductive. we know where everyone stands, we know what everyone thinks, the views will never change, and it means that literally any time someone mentions SPM in this board the same stuff starts up. i've had people tell me they actively avoid bringing up certain games because they don't want to spark the perpetual debate

anyhow wario needs to be knuckles, this is not up for debate
 

Jolly DönerMax

Super Smashed Brother
See my comment under "John's semi-professional opinions."

The extent to which I like any game is influenced by personal biases, but objective judgements are attempts to step away from that bias as much as possible and consider the dev's choices and the properties of the game that make it fulfilling from a rational and less biased perspective. Whilst a human being such as myself could never achieve a perfectly objective judgement, as we cannot help being at least slightly biased, I do not view trying as either impossible or insensible.
You shouldn't try to step away from your biases. That's impossible. Instead, acknowledge your biases first and then try to be reasonable by supporting them with either facts or good reasoning and be aware of faults in human reasoning. "Objective judgements" aren't possible at all. You can try to be as "neutral" as possible but you'll never escape your biases, but what matters more is being fair by examining all relevant (relevancy also being subjective) facts presented *especially* looking critically at those that confirm your biases, as we're all naturally less inclined to object to things we agree with compared to things we disagree with. Not checking with elements that disconfirm your hypothesis is how flawed opinions form (particularly confirmation bias) and lead to arguably bad takes such as "Mario is mental". Those judgements are ultimately opinions formed from examining what the facts are, comparing experiences with one another, then reasoning, then arriving at a conclusion based on those.

my unpopular opinion is that i'm pretty sure we've all heard this conversation a hundred times before in this board

do we really need to hear it again, i ask of everyone involved
I don't see a need to police conversation based on how many times it's discussed and brought up. As long as a fanbase remains large, attracts new people, and has disagreeing opinions, there's always going to be new people who express the same opinions from time to time which shouldn't be ignored or just have no response? I also feel I've advanced away from discussing about RPGs now and am talking more about how to form reasonable opinions, which as long as cognitive biases exist, remain as nice advice. There are tons of recurring debate material throughout this forum (Mario Kart roster and gameplay complaints, Super Smash Bros. roster discussion, Mario platforming complaints including character line-up like Waluigi Wario Daisy Donkey Kong, Mario Party complaints). It's just that how MaRPG/Mario platforming stories are handled tend to be lengthier due to such a broad net it covers and is an ongoing source of contention throughout the entire series, so I expect that conversation to exist probably as long as the Mario series is a thing.

That's fine. I don't see the problem. It promotes activity, it promotes discussion, encourages engagement in the community (which can promote new members sticking around and adding their opinions or sharing their experiences outside of the contentious debate zone) and the discussion here has been pretty okay and worth a read even if it's debated already.
 
Personally, I find it stimulating, even if it is repetitive and people aren't inherently going to flip sides on a debate. Even though I harp on it, I like thinking about its plot and researching about it, as well as talking about other fantastic games I adore. Hell, I didn't even know Kefka nor Final Fantasy 6 all that well, so I read about him and a synopsis on his role in Final Fantasy 6 in Wikipedia and I learned something out of it!

It is just an unpopular opinion of mine, though. And on a personal level, let's just say I had been there before. I used to think Mario needed extended plot to its games, but it was something that shed off me as the years went on.

You're speaking to someone who bought a game only to tussle with the modding tools for hours long and straight JUST to play as a Mario character who just looks and sounds different from the base character, after all. So many games I've modded. GTA V, Left 4 Dead 2, Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, Super Smash Bros. Ultimate....fuck I'm losing track of the games I've tinkered with...Sonic Adventure 2 is next on that list btw
 
The Sunshine Mario doesn't come with voice clips or a ball roll model and the import was done by someone else. My sister and I did the in-game voice clips (my twin picked the voice clips, I packed them together, cutscene voice clips is a different story). I also cribbed some assets from another person 64's model, Mario glows red when he jumps.

I had done imports over Knuckles, Tails, and Rouge though.
 

Mcmadness

The idiot who puts things in the wrong board.
If the people are being civil I see no reason to discontinue the discussion.

Besides the discussion involves someone who I believe is relatively new here so there is potential new perspectives to be learned and shared.
 

ChristmasDinner

The Red-Nosed Dayzee
someone who I believe is relatively new here
Do you mean me?

You can try to be as "neutral" as possible but you'll never escape your biases
I admitted that, but I don't see a problem with trying. I mean sort of one reason I support the idea of objective judgements even if they can never be perfect, say someone said Super Mario Galaxy is the worst Mario game (and assume they have played all of them) then I'm obviously in a way tempted to say "you're wrong" but actually, they have the right to like it the least out of all Mario games, but whether you like playing it or not, there's no doubt that it represents a great leap forward in graphical power next to Sunshine, and that there were some very popular gameplay additions, and the story contains more content than Super Mario 64. Ergo, if there's a Mario game I personally don't enjoy playing but "objectively" judge as well-made and holding up well to this day if it is significantly old, I won't say "it's an awful game, don't play this", I'll say "I didn't enjoy this game and here's why, but I credit the devs on so and so and I think it should be appealing to most people so I'm still going to recommend it."

I'm certainly not trying to say "what I think is objectively right and everyone else is objectively wrong".

eh, it just feels unproductive. we know where everyone stands, we know what everyone thinks, the views will never change, and it means that literally any time someone mentions SPM in this board the same stuff starts up. i've had people tell me they actively avoid bringing up certain games because they don't want to spark the perpetual debate
I mean that's sort of why I'm saying we need to decide what the aim of this discussion is. However it's actually quite interesting as this is the first time I've encountered a person who sincerely despised the plot of Super Paper Mario and it's interesting to hear why. But my love for SPM will likely never change.

Well my life is quite busy right now but I'll have to write a rather long response to that.
To be honest I don't feel like doing that anymore but I will say that a lot of your criticisms was the fact that SPM leaves many things unexplained. Taking Dimentio for example, sure I would have loved to have known his origins, but he's still an epic villain to me and he's deeper than I would expect from most Mario games, even if he's rather shallow in the wider world of RPGs. The thing is that if I were to try FF6 (don't have a SNES though and it's not on VC) or sth sure I might like it but I just don't feel I could attach myself to it as much as Mario. Even Ocarina of Time, a Nintendo RPG which I do like, just isn't the same.

How the hell would Wario fly around? Farting?

Oh..mods.

I could do it but modding SA2 is A PAIN. I'll tell you that right now.
Don't forget that double posting within three days is not approved of on this board.
 
Last edited:

Pokerninja2

Goomba
Honestly I think the bigger issue with Super Paper Mario is that a lot of its chapters are gimmicky and unfun, it's the main reason I don't revisit it as much as the previous two games.

Look at Chapter 3 in Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door, where you have to participate in back to back fights with special conditions. That's a fun change of pace.

Now look at Chapter 2-3 in Super Paper Mario, where you have to do one of two repetitive tasks to earn Rubees to pay off your debt, and pay off those Rubees to other people (one of which is in 3D with no indication of how to find him if memory serves) to get a password to cheat the system and get a million Rubees from the vault. That's not a fun change of pace.

Look at Chapter 6 in Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door, where battling enemies takes a backseat to solving mysteries on a train. That's a fun change of pace.

Now look at Chapter 6 in Super Paper Mario, where you need to do 100 repetitive battles consecutively with little variance between them, except it stops halfway because the Void sucks in that world and now you need to continually walk in one direction for like six minutes. That's not a fun change of pace.

I still like a lot of Super Paper Mario's locations on a conceptual and visual level, but some of them are real unfun to play through.
 

ChristmasDinner

The Red-Nosed Dayzee
Now look at Chapter 2-3 in Super Paper Mario, where you have to do one of two repetitive tasks to earn Rubees to pay off your debt, and pay off those Rubees to other people (one of which is in 3D with no indication of how to find him if memory serves) to get a password to cheat the system and get a million Rubees from the vault. That's not a fun change of pace.
I mean true I always disliked that but I almost always just look up the code since my 1st playthrough. And you know what? I don't even like playing this game that much any more, but even when the gameplay is at its worst, I play through it because the story, characters, locations, emotions, and music are so worth it to me.

Look at Chapter 6 in Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door, where battling enemies takes a backseat to solving mysteries on a train. That's a fun change of pace.
I found that chapter really boring since the story wasn't that good and the gameplay was inexistent apart from the Smorg battle and Riverside station. But again, I play through the worst of TTYD's level design as well because it's still a masterpiece in a lot of ways to me.

Now look at Chapter 6 in Super Paper Mario, where you need to do 100 repetitive battles consecutively with little variance between them, except it stops halfway
The dialogue made it worthwhile imo, plus it's actually only 20 that are compulsory. I did all 100 for my own amusement.
you need to continually walk in one direction for like six minutes. That's not a fun change of pace.
It's actually only about 90 seconds with Carrie, and first time round that sort of had its effect in that you see how desolate and destroyed the world is and it's just nothing for a little bit before you get your cool hypnotised Luigi in a giant anthropomorphic robot boss fight. On subsequent playthroughs, sure, I wish I could just teleport to the end instantly, but I don't mind a slight temporary annoyance in the greatest gaming experience I have had to this day.

I still like a lot of Super Paper Mario's locations on a conceptual and visual level, but some of them are real unfun to play through.
Agreed, but it's worth the good for the bad imo. No game is perfect and Super Paper Mario is no exception, but the things this game does right are enough to make it my favourite even if the level design was downright horrible some of the time.
 

Pokerninja2

Goomba
I mean true I always disliked that but I almost always just look up the code since my 1st playthrough.
Well I didn't get that luxury on my first playthrough, and I'm sure there's many others that didn't either, so my first experience with that part of the game is what I'll always remember as one of the most confusing and repetitive parts of my history with this franchise.
I found that chapter really boring since the story wasn't that good and the gameplay was inexistent apart from the Smorg battle and Riverside station. But again, I play through the worst of TTYD's level design as well because it's still a masterpiece in a lot of ways to me.
To each their own by I found the dialogue and the different situations Mario and friends get roped in funny enough to compromise. Pennington also reminds me of the Bumpty NPCs in Shiver City from the first Paper Mario (obviously) so that's a plus.
The dialogue made it worthwhile imo, plus it's actually only 20 that are compulsory. I did all 100 for my own amusement.

It's actually only about 90 seconds with Carrie, and first time round that sort of had its effect in that you see how desolate and destroyed the world is and it's just nothing for a little bit before you get your cool hypnotised Luigi in a giant anthropomorphic robot boss fight. On subsequent playthroughs, sure, I wish I could just teleport to the end instantly, but I don't mind a slight temporary annoyance in the greatest gaming experience I have had to this day.
I do like the Sammer Guys' names and what they say before every match, but that still doesn't make my (and probably everyone else's) strategy of pushing them to the side of the screen and spamming Bowser's fire breath.

Also I do like how they tried to make it clear what the Void was capable of doing and showing a world that it destroyed, but I do think it could have been more interesting to navigate. Why does it have to be a flat line? Why can't it have a bunch of bumps and obstacles from the destroyed buildings you need to navigate around. It's just kind of tedious no matter how you slice it. The Mr. L battle at the end is good though, probably one of my favorites in the game now that I think about it.
Agreed, but it's worth the good for the bad imo. No game is perfect and Super Paper Mario is no exception, but the things this game does right are enough to make it my favourite even if the level design was downright horrible some of the time.
Super Paper Mario does a lot of things right and whenever I do play through it I often have fun doing it, it's just that it has issues that keep me from replaying it as much as Paper Mario or Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door.
 
Also I do like how they tried to make it clear what the Void was capable of doing and showing a world that it destroyed, but I do think it could have been more interesting to navigate. Why does it have to be a flat line? Why can't it have a bunch of bumps and obstacles from the destroyed buildings you need to navigate around. It's just kind of tedious no matter how you slice it. The Mr. L battle at the end is good though, probably one of my favorites in the game now that I think about it.
I think the point of it is to showcase desolation, devastation and isolation caused by the Void, like a post-apocalytpic scenario or like when Squidward becomes ALONE in SB-125 in Spongebob, but they ended up making it like driving through a drive-over state on the Great Plains instead. I've played games with heavy, remorse atmosphere rife with destruction and abandonment, how you spend your time walking through the destroyed Sammer Kingdom is NOT how you do it: they really need to shorten the time you spend walking through a black line and a white background, because you already sorta got the point by now.
 

ChristmasDinner

The Red-Nosed Dayzee
Bumpty NPCs in Shiver City from the first Paper Mario
Haven't played that game so no spoilers please.
I do like the Sammer Guys' names and what they say before every match, but that still doesn't make my (and probably everyone else's) strategy of pushing them to the side of the screen and spamming Bowser's fire breath.
I would've won the tournament a lot easier if I did that but for the sake of not making it too easy for myself I varied up the tactics, though with the level I was at by that point having beaten Shadoo it was still easy.
they really need to shorten the time you spend walking through a black line and a white background, because you already sorta got the point by now.
Agreed
Super Paper Mario does a lot of things right and whenever I do play through it I often have fun doing it, it's just that it has issues that keep me from replaying it as much as Paper Mario or Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door.
OK I understand. I'm not sure if I can say the same for myself having not played PM64 and my first playthrough of TTYD having started less than 1yr ago but ask me in a decade 'K?

(lmao never realised how fun it is to talk like nastasia)
 
Last edited:
You should play the first one. It's really great, and it remains to be my favorite Paper Mario game. It won't have the same focused story as Super Paper Mario, but it has enough to get you invested in it. And for its time, Bowser beating Mario and seeing increased interactions with him and Peach really was something special.
 
Top