Super Smash Bros. Ultimate

Princess Mario said:
Kirby's that franchise where the games are really good but I argue the playerbase is relatively niche. The franchise doesn't attract much players, but when it does, it usually strongly retains them. Still, its games always generate some buzz but it's always kind of confined, it's hardly ever the most-talked about game. From my experience, it's just a gentle consistent hum compared to the buzz that's Smash Bros. and Fire Emblem.
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Funny thing is, most of the friends I talk to about Kirby either say "Oh yeah, Kirby. The Wii game was fun" or they say "Uh...Kirby? What's that?" I've never heard anything negative about it (compared to Mario, where people just laugh it off as a joke), but people don't seem to really play it anymore either.

I recall one time where I was playing Star Allies in a public area, and one of the adults passed by and started watching me play. I passed him a Joy-Con, and we played a bit together. It didn't seem like he was very familiar with Kirby, but he did look like he was having fun with it, and I remember him saying it was similar to Smash. One of my favorite memories I've had with that game; always nice to see someone else who appreciates Kirby.
 
It's not that people don't "play it any more", it's just Kirby is one of the smaller fish in the Nintendo pool. The fanbase is there, the games just don't generate a lot of discussion. When I frequented messageboards, the Kirby games always tend to be some of the less active ones. While they do can go in top 10 message boards for Nintendo platforms, it usually stays like 8-10 rank and drops off fairly quick after release. I like Kirby a lot, too: I've played Amazing Mirror, Air Ride, Canvas Curse, Mass Attack, Squeak Squad, Return to Dream Land, Epic Yarn, Nightmare in Dream Land, Star Allies, Triple Deluxe, Superstar Ultra, Kirby Fighters Deluxe, have Kirby's Dream Collection. But I just don't see it generate a ton of buzz from my experience.

Really nice experience. So I guess he played Smash before, huh, and Smash's definitely a larger franchise. You should probably quip that the creators of Kirby and Smash are from the same company but guess there's not enough time for that.


Cuphead as a costume's nice I guess but I'll be more impressed if it can change facial expressions.

Doc von Schmeltwick said:
I do find it funny that the more it's represented, the more it's despised. By me included. Taking advantage of its popularity making it less popular on total weighted average in the end.
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I don't think the Mario franchise is universally despised. Piranha Plant is a surprise addition but I think it's nowhere near the vitrol Corrin received last gen.
 
"The Wii game was fun"
Oh yeah, like when you wear a shirt that has (among other things) a Chain Chomp on it and people stop you to ask "is that the thing from Mario Circuit?" because Mario Kart Wii is STILL the most widely-played Mario game (since lots of community center-type places have that when they have games at all).
 
Doc von Schmeltwick said:
"The Wii game was fun"
Oh yeah, like when you wear a shirt that has (among other things) a Chain Chomp on it and people stop you to ask "is that the thing from Mario Circuit?" because Mario Kart Wii is STILL the most widely-played Mario game (since lots of community center-type places have that when they have games at all).
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Exactly. It's basically an indicator that they enjoyed their experience with the game they played, but aren't very invested in the series as a whole.

In this case, my friends remembered playing Kirby Wii a while back with siblings, but also didn't recognize Magolor in Star Allies, so they probably weren't really invested in it.
 
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Me personally, I'm excited. I feel like once it was revealed that Byleth was in, people just stopped watching and spent the rest of the time ranting about how much they hate Fire Emblem and didn't take into account that Byleth has a sword, axe, bow, and lance. That right there is a very creative character to have four different weapons at once.

People are overreacting again. It's a video game. It's one character. Get the heck over it. It's not Nintendo's fault if you bought their pass without knowing who the fighters were, you should've been patient and saw who all the fighters were first. People shouldn't react so vehemently over a freaking video game character.
 
Uh hello, bomb and boomerang? From what I've seen lances are just ungainly outside of jousting regardless.

And it's not just "swordfighter ohnoes." It's "crap another gritty realistic-but-totally-indistinctive-from-the-rest shonen dude." Visual variety goes a long way.
 
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Doc von Schmeltwick said:
I didn't buy shit XD
I'm just annoyed on principal, they have to know these are the most divisive characters, so ending it on that is a dick move.
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This exactly.

They knew that this final fighter would have heavily mixed reception, and they dealt with it in the worst way possible: they put all the more popular picks first and they tried to keep this under wraps for as long as possible, in order to get as much money as possible. They knew how much people would be underwhelmed by this being the finale, so they took extra time to explain that this wasn't the finale.

They knew how controversial Byleth would be. They knew how controversial Corrin was. Yet they had to include it for the sole purpose of advertising. Many people accuse Sakurai of FE bias because he's a fan of the games but this wasn't even Sakurai, this was all Nintendo and their burning desire to make extra money off FE.
 
Doc von Schmeltwick said:
Uh hello, bomb and boomerang? From what I've seen lances are just ungainly outside of jousting regardless.

And it's not just "swordfighter ohnoes." It's "crap another gritty realistic-but-totally-indistinctive-from-the-rest shonen dude." Visual variety goes a long way.
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I'm not sure we should discuss how impractical/ungainly a particular weapon is in a fighter where there's a yoga trainer that attacks with fitness poses and a fat man rides in a motorbike and farts to fly and can get killed by a town secretary, and there are flower sticks and umbrellas as weapons, and characters burst into confetti when they die or blasting off again like Team Rocket.

I do agree that Fire Emblem characters lack a lot in the visual variety department, however. If you try making silhouettes of all the Fire Emblem fighters, there's not much to set them apart. If not, then just play against all of them in the green team, so color can't be used as a crutch to differentiate them. To be fair, however, I'm guessing all the playable fighters are from different time periods and share a role being the familiar, yet different main character, probably for the similarity.
 
Princess Mario said:
I'm not sure we should discuss how impractical/ungainly a particular weapon is in a fighter where there's a yoga trainer that attacks with fitness poses and a fat man rides in a motorbike and farts to fly and can get killed by a town secretary, and there are flower sticks and umbrellas as weapons, and characters burst into confetti when they die or blasting off again like Team Rocket.
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Which itself is proof that large amounts of indistinct realistically-proportioned characters with no defining design characteristics other than the dark shonen artstyle they all share really don't belong. Besides, that large collection of characters can already fight each other in their own games.
 
Doc von Schmeltwick said:
Which itself is proof that large amounts of indistinct realistically-proportioned characters with no defining design characteristics other than the dark shonen artstyle they all share really don't belong.
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But this isn't unique to Fire Emblem? Joker, Terry, and Hero are all realistically proportioned (not to mention, anime characters, their faces, aren't exactly realistically proportioned either; anime's an infamous subject for art teachers). We also got Ryu, Simon, Bayonetta. I am also not a huge fan of getting more realistically proportioned humans as dlc and we still got a lot more potential ones such as Lara Croft and Dante (hell I like Inkling, Piranha Plant, King K. Rool a lot and it's why I'd welcome Toad, Rayman, Bandanna Dee rather than the anime/realistic humans), but to rail against just Byleth and his parent series as a whole isn't fair.

Ribbon said:
This exactly.

They knew that this final fighter would have heavily mixed reception, and they dealt with it in the worst way possible: they put all the more popular picks first and they tried to keep this under wraps for as long as possible, in order to get as much money as possible. They knew how much people would be underwhelmed by this being the finale, so they took extra time to explain that this wasn't the finale.

They knew how controversial Byleth would be. They knew how controversial Corrin was. Yet they had to include it for the sole purpose of advertising. Many people accuse Sakurai of FE bias because he's a fan of the games but this wasn't even Sakurai, this was all Nintendo and their burning desire to make extra money off FE.
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I also don't understand why they chose another Fire Emblem rep for a finale again, but honestly, it just seems like a rickroll at this point. Of course they're well aware of Corrin's divisive inclusion in Smash 4. Maybe they're trying to continue that.

I'm not sure how much advertising factors in this time and honestly you can argue every other character is advertising too; is Joker advertising or not? Isn't Hero advertising too? Corrin felt more blatant because he was put in Smash before Fire Emblem Fates was even released while Byleth was from a game that was released last year. I think you can argue that they're trying to capitalize on Fire Emblem's success a little too much, which I also have to agree.

Ferdinand von Aegir said:
Me personally, I'm excited. I feel like once it was revealed that Byleth was in, people just stopped watching and spent the rest of the time ranting about how much they hate Fire Emblem and didn't take into account that Byleth has a sword, axe, bow, and lance. That right there is a very creative character to have four different weapons at once.

People are overreacting again. It's a video game. It's one character. Get the heck over it. It's not Nintendo's fault if you bought their pass without knowing who the fighters were, you should've been patient and saw who all the fighters were first. People shouldn't react so vehemently over a freaking video game character.
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I feel Byleth is going to get in given any amount of time since Three Houses is the most successful game in the franchise. I, however, don't see a real sense of urgency to include him so soon especially when it's again the only first party character as part of DLC (so far) as how Corrin's the only first party newcomer in Smash 4's DLC. I have my doubts on him being a creative character (again to be fair he doesn't need to be a creative character to be in, he needs only a degree of relevance, fan popularity; if no relevance, then a surprise; Banjo's toolset is bog standard despite Banjo being a highly requested character), though, but I don't know his moveset.

Anyhow, I reiterate again: season passes are gambling. Unless you want the season pass just for the sake of complete roster (which is a valid reason to get it), you shouldn't buy it ever if you are choosy about which characters are in it. Even if you think leaks seem real, even if a character is seemingly likely, you should assume there will be content you don't like in the pass and wait. I think the concept of season passes are shady but I do hope at least some people learn their lesson in gambling for characters they want.
 
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Which one? The only game in the series where the main protag all fight against each other is Heroes
Hating a series for a crossover game where they can't even show their full extent of the character is silly and petty, the look a like argument is also silly, we are on a board where the two main characters started the same but different colors.
Try it, you may like it, also, anime is simply what animation is called in Japan, in the 80's, American cartoons were just buff dudes with faces that hardly differ, you're not going to say Hamtaro and JoJo look the same, do you?
Also for Kirby, think of it this way, with characters from already repped franchises getting dlc, is anyone really off limits anymore?
Anyways, I think FE got this many reps due to FE being about the characters, a game with permadeath is not going to work if you don't care about them, keep in mind, the series was in death's knees before Awakening, I don't think they would bothered adding anymore if that's it.
Also, who the hell are we going to add from Metriod? Kraid is a stage hazzard, Mother Brain is hardly mobile, everybody wants to forget Other M and Federation Forces, Sa-x is redundant and the only character from Hunters that might stand a chance is Slyux
 
In comparison to say, Mario, the base "anime" look is definitely quite realistic, anyways, I meant like body proportions XD

Anyways, my obligatory tongue-in-cheek response to the Metroid question is this guy.
(and it's really not as out of the question as you'd think, three characters from that source later appeared in official Japanese-made media)
I don't like using the word "anime" as a style, which is why I went out of my way to say "shonen," which is generally characterized by hard facial lines and other such attributes.
 
Empress of the Dark Winds said:
the look a like argument is also silly, we are on a board where the two main characters started the same but different colors.
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to be fair, those two characters are actually related to each other and it's only two characters, unlike taking up 95% of that series reps
 
Empress of the Dark Winds said:
Hating a series for a crossover game where they can't even show their full extent of the character is silly and petty, the look a like argument is also silly, we are on a board where the two main characters started the same but different colors.
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Yeah Mario and Luigi started as recolors but at the very least they're considered twins. I'm talking about 8 characters that are supposed to be distinct from one another all look really similar if you dress them up in similar colors. Lucina does use her similarity to her advantage so I guess her similarity is by design, but the rest? Yeah I one time fought 7 Fire Emblem characters in green alts and I get confused who's who.
 
i don't mind byleth. when i woke up and saw the video i was like "oh, of course its another fire emblem character" but after that i got over it
the character trailer is probably my least favourite of the bunch, it felt a little disjointed, jumping between anime cutscenes, FE:3H in-game models/UI and smash gameplay. i understand why it was done that way, and maybe i would appreciate it a bit more if i actually played three houses, but whatever
byleth themselves look fine. i like that they at least incorporated the three other main FE weapons that haven't been incorporated. honestly out of all the characters in the fighter pass, byleth feels like the most easily digestible in terms of not having a weird, confusing mechanic that you need to have explained to you beforehand. definitely the most pick-up-and-play friendly, which i think is a nice change of pace for the fighter pass.
mii costumes are cool this time around. its weird that they put it as "Smash X Altair" instead of "Smash X Assassin's Creed" but whatever, im not gonna read any extra significance into it. cuphead outfit is cool too

as for the matter of "oh no its another FE character", i feel like the situation is very unique due to the circumstances of both the FE series as a whole and Ultimate in particular. because of FE's nature of being almost an anthology series (different characters, settings, etc each game), it means that every time a new smash game releases, a character that was once relevant when the previous game released (like, say, roy) isn't really relevant anymore. its almost like FE characters have an expiry date. its not like a series like metroid or star fox, where samus and fox will always stay relevant and therefore you can get away with only having 2-3 reps. like, yeah, you could argue "we don't need more fire emblem characters, fans of the series should be happy with what they've got" but like, what if you're someone who only just picked up the series with fire emblem: three houses? legacy characters like marth and roy don't mean anything to those people.
i think that fire emblem is a big enough series now to justify multiple reps. contrary to what some people say, it's not just a 'c-list' series anymore. its a high performer. like, even just fire emblem heroes alone has so far outperformed all of nintendo's other mobile ventures, even Mario titles (although i assume its going to get overtaken by mario kart tour). that's no small feat, and the mainline games sell into the millions. just because you don't like it doesnt mean it's not a big deal
now, do i think that we need 8 FE characters? no, of course not. in an ideal world, i think it should have probably 3-4 reps all up. personally, i feel like the only essential characters would be Marth (as the mainstay legacy character), Robin (a representative from FE:A, which launched the series into the mainstream, and who also isn't a clone), and then maybe one character from a later game, but that depends on how history goes. characters like roy, ike, the echoes, corrin, probably even byleth should probably be considered for the chopping board in the future. in my mind, i wouldn't mind actually keeping byleth since they and robin together do a good job of actually representing most of the standard, mainstay weapon types across the series, but i guess it would depend on what comes in the future. i also think it's a bit unfair on byleth to judge them based on being 'another fire emblem character, and half of them play the same' when they doesn't belong to said half. if anyone should be removed, it should be roy, chrom and lucina, cause they're all basically clones, but as the saying goes, "Everyone is here!" I think this discussion probably wouldn't be as prevelant as it is right now if it weren't for the fact that this specific game brings back ALL characters indiscriminately, relevance and staying power be damned

tl;dr i think FE has a weird situation where, despite the series being popular, the characters go out of fashion probably sooner than they should, and combining that with the fact that all characters got brought back this time even when some probably shouldn't, it makes a weird, undesirable situation where there are more FE characters than there probably should be.
you can feel free to dislike byleth, but i personally don't mind them
 
John Doe said:
its weird that they put it as "Smash X Altair" instead of "Smash X Assassin's Creed"
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I think they said Assassin's Creed in the UK version, which makes no sense, just say Altair in both or AC in both. I'd rather they said Assassin's Creed though, I thought Altair was the name of some AC spin-off or something. Had to look it up.
 
As soon as I have seen the opening of the Smash Direct out of curiosity on the mysterious fifth character, I knew that the Fighters' Pass is not for me, which is the same conclusion I came to as soon as the first character is announced, albeit with a more hopeful feeling (because the others were still unrevealed at that time). The main issue with me is that the first party pick is neither an unused first party or a first party I would be excited for, and Fire Emblem had already have a DLC before (Corrin) so it's a far less exciting pick. At least the others were third-party characters, which are understandable in their inclusion. Still, I find it funny because Edelgard was an expected choice long ago, and this is in spirit, that request.

Unless my favourites are somehow added in the second Challenger Pack (and they are considered unpopular, mind you), I can't help but be indifferent about it, because they are undoubtedly likely going to be popular or highly request stuff (like Dante, I guess) that I don't really care about.

The best addition in the first Pack is Banjo, with Hero/Terry being a bit behind in interest.

Thank you for reading.
 
John Doe said:
as for the matter of "oh no its another FE character", i feel like the situation is very unique due to the circumstances of both the FE series as a whole and Ultimate in particular. because of FE's nature of being almost an anthology series (different characters, settings, etc each game), it means that every time a new smash game releases, a character that was once relevant when the previous game released (like, say, roy) isn't really relevant anymore. its almost like FE characters have an expiry date. its not like a series like metroid or star fox, where samus and fox will always stay relevant and therefore you can get away with only having 2-3 reps. like, yeah, you could argue "we don't need more fire emblem characters, fans of the series should be happy with what they've got" but like, what if you're someone who only just picked up the series with fire emblem: three houses? legacy characters like marth and roy don't mean anything to those people.
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While I think Fire Emblem has always a different set of characters, which is truly unique for its series, the idea of "trendy" characters with expiration dates isn't wholly unique to Fire Emblem. I'm actually reminded of Pokemon. Jigglypuff has lost all relevance it had since its peak in the original Smash Bros., yet it's still there. I don't know if Lucario is relevant any more, but is Greninja still relevant (perhaps one of the most forgettable characters)? Incineroar? I'm also reminded of the Legend of Zelda where the only commonly recurring characters are Link, Zelda, Ganon, Impa (not sure about Tingle) but everyone else comes and goes while being highly requested Legend of Zelda characters for the time.
 
I have a feeling that Lucario will still be considered one of the more popular Pokemon, especially as one of the non-Gen 1 picks. I can agree with Incineroar though, because while it's to make for an interesting moveset, I don't get the impression that it is the most popular starter (I think Decidueye is) that's unfortunately saddled in the less popular Pokken. Greninja is a toss-up only because for some reason it has a form that's exclusive to it (Chesnaught/Delphox had no such privilege) at that time, but not sure about future prospects.

One thing for sure: Jigglypuff is, for its home series, not that popular although it's a Gen 1 Pokemon so it's ahead of the rest for that reason. I daresay that Clefairy is actually more popular. Smash is its main claim to fame.

Thank you for reading.
 
Princess Mario said:
While I think Fire Emblem has always a different set of characters, which is truly unique for its series, the idea of "trendy" characters with expiration dates isn't wholly unique to Fire Emblem. I'm actually reminded of Pokemon. Jigglypuff has lost all relevance it had since its peak in the original Smash Bros., yet it's still there. I don't know if Lucario is relevant any more, but is Greninja still relevant (perhaps one of the most forgettable characters)? Incineroar? I'm also reminded of the Legend of Zelda where the only commonly recurring characters are Link, Zelda, Ganon, Impa (not sure about Tingle) but everyone else comes and goes while being highly requested Legend of Zelda characters for the time.
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yeah, i will agree that there are some other series that also have that issue, although i'd still argue its not as severe as in fire emblem. say what you will about individual pokemon losing popularity, but at the very least they've traditionally always still been appearing in new games (obviously that's changed since the release of ultimate), so it still counts as 'current' representation by a technicality, and combining it with the ridiculously immense popularity of pokemon it makes at least a little more sense for it to have as many slots as it does. not to mention some pokemon just get ridiculously popular (i'm pretty sure greninja was crazy popular in japan at least even beyond the generation he was introduced in). but even then i'm sure it would be one of the first candidates for some pruning by the time next smash game comes (or at least it should be)

good point about zelda, though. theres always been requests for characters like ghirahim or whoever to appear, but we only ever get the members of the triforce trio... i wonder what it is that sets zelda apart to not have 'seasonal' characters like other series do? is it just something cynical like "we dont need to advertise zelda like we do fire emblem and pokemon?" or is there a better reason? who knows, food for thought i guess
 
I wonder, will ARMS and Xenoblade 2 get another chance in fighters pack 2? The reason they weren't in the final game because they were too recent, however this isn't a problem here, Graphic novel sinking into oblivion aside, I can see ARMS getting a sequel (I would personally call it ARMS Extended, but that's off topic) and Xenoblade is celebrating it's with aniversy and since most of the important characters of Xenoblade 1 already playing some sort of in game role (though that didn't stop Chrom ), I can see them turning to Rex as he is decently requested
Other franchises of note this year:
Tantei Club, which is getting two remakes this year, however they seem to be Japan only.
Dragalia Lost: The odd contradiction of being a Nintendo franchise but not on Nintendo consoles, the game has already collaborated with three franchises in Smash and Cygames has involvement in Ultimate.
Animal Crossing: New Horizons is easily Nintendo's biggest game in 2020 at the moment, however, I think it is better to wait and see then just adding a forgettable new character .
The Strecthers/Little Town Hero: Think these are getting spirits at best.
Pokemon: Obviously Galar is on the watch but I think the Mystery Dungeon series might get more requests for characters specifically from that,
Mario: Don't kid yourself, we all know some new games are coming out, however, I think any new content would just be spirts.
Kirby: New game in development, cafe, Super Clash, so much merch, as I said earlier, with already repped franchises can get DLC, I can see it being a focus.
Zelda/Metriod/Pikmin/Bayonetta: Games with development is mostly unknown, it really up in the air what can happen with them.
NMH/Bravely Default: Games from third party companies that Nintendo themselves are publishing, with Square's stingyness, I think NMH might get more attention if at all

That's just my take of things, Smash really has no pattern and I preferred to be surprisdd
 
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