Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga + Bowser's Minions

[Mister Wu]

Even if there isn't character consistency and characters are up for interpretation, I think there are some depictions that work better than others and it's still fine to voice dissatisfaction with some depictions.

Well, I'd say that I'm one that doesn't hesitate to do that, maybe even a bit too much, although I admit that I underestimated all the implications of the lack of canon in this regard.

That being said, in the case of this remake the lack of canonicity is even more evident, as the whole Minion Quest is constantly shown in the lower screen to be a movie shown at the Yoshi Theater, just like even the original game was and the main game in this remake is. Maybe that's why the developers felt not as restricted in the use of characters from BiS - yes even the one you probably don't even want to name...

 

[Mcmadness]

Here's the thing though, Mario characters are such blank slates that have little to no personality anyway. They can be toyed and played with from game to game. There's no set canon and developers can do what they please with these various stock characters. So TTYD's portrayal isn't inaccurate or unfaithful, because there's not really a set standard anyway. These characters are flexible. The RPGs are just another interpretation.

Admittedly you are correct, there is no set canon for such things but thats not going to stop me from criticizing what I personally feel to be a bad use of a character, especially in a game that is one of the few story driven ones in this franchise.

And I also disagree with the notion that they are blank slates, I feel like there are a lot of aspects about these characters that have been consistent enough to view them as pretty set in stone.

 

[justcamtro]

So I'm ripping the sprites/backgrounds from this game, the perspective is the almost same way as Dream Team.

Spoiler

 

[Paper Mario]

I was hoping someone would come through with the sprite rips :D

Any way I could get a link to these sexy sprites when you're done?

(Also backgrounds? Are they as accessible as the original game's backgrounds? Because that would be amazing)

 

[ThatGuy62]

Nice, Camtro.

I was hoping someone would come through with the sprite rips :D

Any way I could get a link to these sexy sprites when you're done?

(Also backgrounds? Are they as accessible as the original game's backgrounds? Because that would be amazing)

The backgrounds should be 2D for the most part, so I sure hope so.

 

[Daniel Dyce]

First of all, I think the point about PMCS Morton is not whether he's likeable or not. The problem I see is that the SMB3 manual clearly showed him both as talking properly and also being aware and worried about the risks - something well shown in PJ.

When the personality of a character changes so drasticallly, it isn't usually a very good sign...

Anyway, just so you know, SSS+BM Morton is pretty much yet another Morton

Spoiler

Now he talks in a mostly appropriate manner and doesn't boast about his strength by saying MORTON STRONG! MORTON MORE TONS!, but still he talks in a simple way in all caps often naming himself with the third person. As an example, he says "MINIONS AND TOADS DO WHAT MORTON TELLS THEM." and "SMART MINIONS JOIN ME. DUMMIES GET BEAT UP." I would wait for the Japanese version and the other localizations, though, as this might just be Treehouse doing what they think is funny™

Oh yeah I forgot all those classic Morton Koopa lines over the years
who could forget all of them
you know those classic elegant quotes from Morton Koopa
that great personality he had that was of course as we all know established in the SMB3 manual
I can't believe they would change the completely established and beloved personality of Morton Koopa jr truly Koopaling with the most beloved and established personality
Truly they have gone to far as to change Morton Koopa Jr. who as well all know talks properly and is intelligent for this is simply just a fact of the mario universe and definitely not just something from a 30 year old guide book written by random jabronies no sir

 

[ThatGuy62]

First of all, I think the point about PMCS Morton is not whether he's likeable or not. The problem I see is that the SMB3 manual clearly showed him both as talking properly and also being aware and worried about the risks - something well shown in PJ.

When the personality of a character changes so drasticallly, it isn't usually a very good sign...

Anyway, just so you know, SSS+BM Morton is pretty much yet another Morton

Spoiler

Now he talks in a mostly appropriate manner and doesn't boast about his strength by saying MORTON STRONG! MORTON MORE TONS!, but still he talks in a simple way in all caps often naming himself with the third person. As an example, he says "MINIONS AND TOADS DO WHAT MORTON TELLS THEM." and "SMART MINIONS JOIN ME. DUMMIES GET BEAT UP." I would wait for the Japanese version and the other localizations, though, as this might just be Treehouse doing what they think is funny™

Oh yeah I forgot all those classic Morton Koopa lines over the years
who could forget all of them
you know those classic elegant quotes from Morton Koopa
that great personality he had that was of course as we all know established in the SMB3 manual
I can't believe they would change the completely established and beloved personality of Morton Koopa jr truly Koopaling with the most beloved and established personality
Truly they have gone to far as to change Morton Koopa Jr. who as well all know talks properly and is intelligent for this is simply just a fact of the mario universe and definitely not just something from a 30 year old guide book written by random jabronies no sir

You'd have a point if Paper Jam (which followed that characterization) didn't come out before Color Splash and this game, which makes the personality change obvious.

 

[LeftyGreenMario]

Any way I could get a link to these sexy sprites when you're done?

Yes, I can't miss out on Mario in white trousers.

 

[justcamtro]

I was hoping someone would come through with the sprite rips :D

Any way I could get a link to these sexy sprites when you're done?

(Also backgrounds? Are they as accessible as the original game's backgrounds? Because that would be amazing)

Yes, most of them is 2D

Spoiler

Meanwhile the dat ripping is little hard than i expected lol.

Im not sure if final boss stage is 2D or 3D, but that final boss is 3D model while they using sprite as the texture.

 

[Glowsquid]

Scratch that, this game wouldn't even exist. As Glowsquid mentioned earlier, this game is the quirkiest in the series and pinning reusing assets or arbitrarily replacing them isn't Miyamoto's doing. Any mention I made were tongue in cheek.

Glowsquid's argument is not a fact. They have no sources to back up their argument.

• My Argument: Miyamoto is likely responsible for the generic Toads and Koopas through influence to some capacity[1][2][3]
• Glowsquid's Argument: Miyamoto is not likely responsible for the generic Toads in Koopas[citation needed]

• Miyamoto: Why I Spiked Mario Galaxy 2's Story - "I’d like to go with as little story as possible. I’ve always felt that the Mario games themselves aren’t particularly suited to having a very heavy story.", Shigeru Miyamoto - Miyamoto does not like story in Mario.
• Miyamoto Convinced The People Behind Paper Mario: Sticker Star To Ditch The Story - "It's fine without a story, so do we really need one? And as much as possible, complete it with only characters from the Super Mario world." - Miyamoto told Intelligent Systems to remove story and original characters from Sticker Star.", Shigeru Miyamoto - Miyamoto told Intelligent Systems to remove story and original characters from Sticker Star.
• Miyamoto Asked for Paper Mario: Color Splash to be Made Using Only Mario Characters - "Mario is not an IP that I created. From the position of someone borrowing the IP, I think it’s only natural to show respect to the person who created it, and let that feeling of respect guide us. So when Miyamoto-san, the father of Mario, asks us “could you make a game with only characters from the Mario family?”, I think it’s only natural for us to give it our best shot. In other words, we are not currently thinking about returning to old NPCs.", Kensuke Tanabe - Miyamoto told Intelligent Systems to remove story and original characters from Color Splash.

I understand that most of you agree with Glowsquid's argument, but it's common sense that the argument with more factual sources is more accurate. Sources > No Sources.

You've demonstrated a poor understanding of establising cause/effect. If I was told "John Doe stole cash from the register once ", that may be a true statement, and it might be a cause of suspicion, but I'd still need to produce evidence john doe commited the act by providing proofs he had access to the register, was at the scene of the crime when it occured., et cetera. The conclusion ""John Doe stole cash from the register once so he also did it this time" without providing more direct evidence would not hold up in court; the true statement that John Doe stole cash the first time is not a proof in itself. Likewise, Miyamoto might have told the developers of Sticker Star to make the game shittier in ways that ressemble the dissapointing changes made in Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga + Bowser's Minions, but while "Miyamoto said X during the development of Sticker Star" is a fact, it does not make the conclusion "Miyamoto [or whoever] made Sticker Star shit so he also made Bowser's Minion shit" a factual statement in the absence of information about the game's development and (this is important) the presence of other possible causes.


One of my main argument is that this remake is keeping may of the unusual incarnation of classic enemies and stylistic differences the original game had. Which it does , and it would be odd if Miyamoto/another Nintendo supervisor did indeed tell Alpha Dream to clean some character design deviations while ignoring others, some far more drastic than what was removed. Despite me repeadtly pointing out this, yeah, fact, you've never addressed it once. And since I made that post, we've had more reveals showing both the remake faithfully remaking quirky designs of established Mario characters (lanky Boomerang Bros, rule 63 Bowser) and more instances of obvious cut corners (removing the black robot dog enemies because they couldn't easily reuse or frankenstize an existing Dream Team-style sprite, insteading reusing an enemy that did have Dream Team-style sprites), not to mention the remake being half-assed in respects beside graphics, So yeah, not impressed.

Glowsquid's argument claiming that AlphaDream didn't have the time/resources holds no merit after clear proof that they made brand new sprites from the ground up.

Half of your thesis rest on the premise that since AlphaDream didn't half-ass everything, they obviously can't half-ass anything and any instance of cut corners or dissapointing changes can only be the result of a darker design. Which is, yeah.

 

[Mcmadness]

Thank you Glowsquid, said it better than I ever could.


On a completely different note. I may view this remake as nothing more than an unnecessary disappointment but I'll always hold a special place in my heart for captain goomba.

 

[ThatGuy62]

Thank you Glowsquid, said it better than I ever could.


On a completely different note. I may view this remake as nothing more than an unnecessary disappointment but I'll always hold a special place in my heart for captain goomba.

Captain Goomba is the leader the Koopa Troop needs, but not the one it deserves.

 

[Mcmadness]

He also (ending of minion quest)

https://imgur.com/a/yeZK7

Spoiler

Gets his rank removed

 

[ThatGuy62]

He also (ending of minion quest)

https://imgur.com/a/yeZK7

Spoiler

Gets his rank removed

Spoiler

But he will always be Captain, in our hearts

Spoiler

Also, does it bother anyone else that the Koopalings poses in that ending artwork are their exact poses for their official artwork?

 

[Mister Wu]

Spoiler

Also, does it bother anyone else that the Koopalings poses in that ending artwork are their exact poses for their official artwork?

Spoiler

Actually, reuse of Koopalings' poses from those 2015 artwork images is not something that wasn't done before:

Lemmy's pose in PMCS is horizontally flipped in the game; by the way, also Lemmy had another pose inspired from older artwork:

 

[ThatGuy62]

Spoiler

Also, does it bother anyone else that the Koopalings poses in that ending artwork are their exact poses for their official artwork?

Spoiler

Actually, reuse of Koopalings' poses from those 2015 artwork images is not something that wasn't done before:

Lemmy's pose in PMCS is horizontally flipped in the game; by the way, also Lemmy had another pose inspired from older artwork:

I don't know why, but it doesn't bother me as much there as it does here.

 

[Mister Wu]

Well, of course you end up pretty disappointed, it's a missed opportunity to show new high quality images displaying poses that tell us something new about the characters, not to say that quite often this pose recycling can lead to jarring effects since the poses were absolutely not intended for the scene shown, one of the first things you can usually spot is that without proper editing this easily leads to absolute lack of interaction with both the environment and the other characters.

 

[ThatGuy62]

Videos are starting to go up. Gonna link the three Minion Quest videos currently up:

Goomp:

Spoiler

Larry:

Spoiler

Iggy:

Spoiler

Also, apparently, the "Dark" versions of the Koopalings show up if you redo a stage after recruiting them.

 

[Mcmadness]

I just want to see them beat the shit out of Fawful because I like watching Fawful get beat up.

 

[ThatGuy62]

I just want to see them beat the *bleep* out of Fawful because I like watching Fawful get beat up.

Well, you're gonna be waiting a while since that's at Bowser's Castle.

 

[Mcmadness]

Yeah I know, ah well.

 

[Harpesian]

First of all, I think the point about PMCS Morton is not whether he's likeable or not. The problem I see is that the SMB3 manual clearly showed him both as talking properly and also being aware and worried about the risks - something well shown in PJ.

When the personality of a character changes so drasticallly, it isn't usually a very good sign...

Anyway, just so you know, SSS+BM Morton is pretty much yet another Morton

Spoiler

Now he talks in a mostly appropriate manner and doesn't boast about his strength by saying MORTON STRONG! MORTON MORE TONS!, but still he talks in a simple way in all caps often naming himself with the third person. As an example, he says "MINIONS AND TOADS DO WHAT MORTON TELLS THEM." and "SMART MINIONS JOIN ME. DUMMIES GET BEAT UP." I would wait for the Japanese version and the other localizations, though, as this might just be Treehouse doing what they think is funny™

Oh yeah I forgot all those classic Morton Koopa lines over the years
who could forget all of them
you know those classic elegant quotes from Morton Koopa
that great personality he had that was of course as we all know established in the SMB3 manual
I can't believe they would change the completely established and beloved personality of Morton Koopa jr truly Koopaling with the most beloved and established personality
Truly they have gone to far as to change Morton Koopa Jr. who as well all know talks properly and is intelligent for this is simply just a fact of the mario universe and definitely not just something from a 30 year old guide book written by random jabronies no sir

You'd have a point if Paper Jam (which followed that characterization) didn't come out before Color Splash and this game, which makes the personality change obvious.

Considering that Paper Jam technically comes AFTER, can I headcanon that Morton learns to talk better over time? Lol.

 

[ThatGuy62]

Sure, why not?

 

[Mister Wu]

And now, the least interesting detail ever (like only I care)

Spoiler

Bowser Jr. is stated to be Bowser's only son in the English version

HOWEVER

This is technically not revisionism because the Japanese Nintendo Official Guidebook said nothing on the relationship between Bowser and the Koopalings - it didn't make sense, since at that point Bowletta was there instead. The most that could be said is that since the then just released Japanese Nintendo Official Guidebook of SMA4 called them Bowser's children and Larry called Bowser "father" in the Japanese site of the Wii VC version of SMB3, it might considered a bit of a stretch to use the current depictions. But in my opinion, this cannot really be considered revisionism. It would have been cool if they used the past depiction since M&L:SS was the last game to use the old design, but expecting that would have been wishful thinking at best.

 

[Mcmadness]

Sooner or later you are going to have to accept they aren't his kids anymore.