Mister Apple
Not Mr. Apple
Source?
Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga + Bowser's Minions
- Thread starter Paper Mario
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ThatGuy62
Boo
Well, Toads are the general natives of the Mushroom Kingdom. Speaking about Paper Mario directly, it was the director of the newer games who decided that toads were pretty much Mario's only allies (not sure how Wiggler got through, though) Notice that, RPG or no, Toads are a bit more scarce when the games take place outside the Mushroom Kingdom,Refrigerator Kirby said:
The Superstar Saga
Cheep Cheep
Mcmadness said:
Trunks Mario said:
Alpha Dream was not cutting and pasting, pinning reusing, or arbitrarily replacing sprites. They created brand new sprites from the ground up. This is a fact:
AlphaDream had the time/resources to create brand new sprites from the ground up. For them not to make the original unique designs faithful, it had to have been a deliberate decision.
Trunks Mario said:
Glowsquid's argument is not a fact. They have no sources to back up their argument.
- My Argument: Miyamoto is likely responsible for the generic Toads and Koopas through influence to some capacity[1][2][3]
- Glowsquid's Argument: Miyamoto is not likely responsible for the generic Toads in Koopas[citation needed]
- Miyamoto: Why I Spiked Mario Galaxy 2's Story - "I'd like to go with as little story as possible. I've always felt that the Mario games themselves aren't particularly suited to having a very heavy story.", Shigeru Miyamoto - Miyamoto does not like story in Mario.
- Miyamoto Convinced The People Behind Paper Mario: Sticker Star To Ditch The Story - "It's fine without a story, so do we really need one? And as much as possible, complete it with only characters from the Super Mario world." - Miyamoto told Intelligent Systems to remove story and original characters from Sticker Star.", Shigeru Miyamoto - Miyamoto told Intelligent Systems to remove story and original characters from Sticker Star.
- Miyamoto Asked for Paper Mario: Color Splash to be Made Using Only Mario Characters - "Mario is not an IP that I created. From the position of someone borrowing the IP, I think it's only natural to show respect to the person who created it, and let that feeling of respect guide us. So when Miyamoto-san, the father of Mario, asks us "could you make a game with only characters from the Mario family?", I think it's only natural for us to give it our best shot. In other words, we are not currently thinking about returning to old NPCs.", Kensuke Tanabe - Miyamoto told Intelligent Systems to remove story and original characters from Color Splash.
I understand that most of you agree with Glowsquid's argument, but it's common sense that the argument with more factual sources is more accurate. Sources > No Sources.
I even respect McMadness' previous argument more: "They made the characters generic to match the new Boswer's Minion mode for consistency". Now that argument, I can believe. McMadness' argument it is far more logical and has more substance. It was a deliberate decision. Glowsquid's argument claiming that AlphaDream didn't have the time/resources holds no merit after clear proof that they made brand new sprites from the ground up.
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TheSuperStarSaga said:
It doesn't matter how many sources you have if none of them deal with him suggesting the removal of content from remakes of older games. Also, just because AlphaDream made some new sprites doesn't mean they had the time/resources to remake everything. This isn't a fan project like AM2R. There are things that have to get done and deadlines that have to be met. Sprites, models, and other such assets are usually low on the development workflow priority totem pole compared to everything else because if devs have to choose between a game looking nice or functioning well (and they often do), they're going to choose the latter if they want anyone to play it.
ThatGuy62
Boo
TheSuperStarSaga said:Mcmadness said:Trunks Mario said:
Alpha Dream was not cutting and pasting, pinning reusing, or arbitrarily replacing sprites. They created brand new sprites from the ground up. This is a fact:
Are you sure they aren't reusing the Dream Team sprites? Dream Team and Superstar Saga have an overhead view of the overworld while Paper Jam had more "level" sprites (compare Bowser's overworld sprite in Dream Team to his one in Paper Jam. The perspective is different).
The part about the koopas being changed for consistency with Minion Quest, I believe though.
The Superstar Saga
Cheep Cheep
Mcmadness said:
The sprites have different proportions (smaller pupils, bigger nose for the Koopas), shading, etc. If they wanted to be lazy by copying and pasting old sprites why go through the hassle of editing them in the first place? The ammount of change between the two sprites compared is basically a new one from the ground up.
Mcmadness said:
When we had Sticker Star, Paper Jam, and Color Splash all come out with a cast of generic Toads, generic Koopas and generic Goombas can fans really be blamed for viewing this as a blatant trend?
Also, there's no need to resort to swearing in forum debates. I haven't done so, and I expect you to hold the same level of civility.
ThatGuy62
Boo
Miyamoto's basically a scapegoat at this point. The thing that those links leave out is that Tanabe agreed with Miyamoto's position and the team used a Club Nintendo survey to see how people reacted to SPM's story. Additionally "use characters only from the Mario Family" did not mean "use only Toads for NPCs", that was a point Tanabe reached himself since he believes Toads are the only allies Mario has (a point that contradicts itself considering Wiggler as an ally got by fine). Even the Bowser speaking thing is arguable as to whether or not it's a misunderstanding of what Miyamoto meant by "treatment of Bowser" considering Bowser talks in the 3D platformers, M&L and even Color Splash. To say he's meddling in this game makes even less sense since why do Beanerang Bros or quadrapedal Dry Bones still exist?
Paper Jam is probably the best example of what I mean. Remember how people thought Miyamoto had placed restrictions on AlphaDream, only for it to turn out that what they did was a conscious choice?
Paper Jam is probably the best example of what I mean. Remember how people thought Miyamoto had placed restrictions on AlphaDream, only for it to turn out that what they did was a conscious choice?
The Superstar Saga
Cheep Cheep
Tanabe is just as guilty for this trend we've been seeing. However, we should question why Miyamoto told the "It's fine without a story, so do we really need one? And as much as possible, complete it with only characters from the Super Mario world." in the first place. Why restrict creativity that fans enjoy? Tanabe may be the one perpetuating this trend, but Miyamoto was still the catalyst.
As for Paper Jam being an exception to Miyamoto's influence fair enough. 3 sources indicate Miyamoto influenced the generic Toads, lack of original characters, lack of story we've been seeing in the Mario RPGs. 1 source indicates against it. I respect that you used the Paper Jam source in your argument. Something that other people here fail to do.
As for Paper Jam being an exception to Miyamoto's influence fair enough. 3 sources indicate Miyamoto influenced the generic Toads, lack of original characters, lack of story we've been seeing in the Mario RPGs. 1 source indicates against it. I respect that you used the Paper Jam source in your argument. Something that other people here fail to do.
ThatGuy62
Boo
I'm okay with people saying Miyamoto was the catalyst (because he was), but it feels like people were so traumatized by Sticker Star, that their knee-jerk reaction is to blame him even when it doesn't make sense (why would Miyamoto want the Toads and/or koopas changed, but leave designs like the Dry Bones intact?), when Tanabe didn't fight and actually agreed with him in certain cases (unlike AlphaDream) and when Paper Jam did more with it's (self-imposed, mind you) restrictions.TheSuperStarSaga said:
I'm more somebody who wants a balance of established and new characters and elements, but the Koopalings and Bowser Jr.'s portrayals in the recent Paper Mario games have made me lose faith in Intelligent Systems in that regard.
Mcmadness
The idiot who puts things in the wrong board.
I swear because thats how I talk. Not because I'm throwing shit at people.
Because their body positioning doesn't fit the camera angle as already previously explained.
Not his fault devs apparently don't know that more exists in mainland Mario then just toads.
They are just cutting corners, there is nothing more to it then that.
And frankly after the bullshit they were pulling with SPM, IS needed somebody to smack some sense into them, they just took it too far because they've apparently forgotten what moderation is.
TheSuperStarSaga said:
Because their body positioning doesn't fit the camera angle as already previously explained.
TheSuperStarSaga said:
Not his fault devs apparently don't know that more exists in mainland Mario then just toads.
They are just cutting corners, there is nothing more to it then that.
And frankly after the bullshit they were pulling with SPM, IS needed somebody to smack some sense into them, they just took it too far because they've apparently forgotten what moderation is.
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I don't see an issue with Koopalings/Bowser Jr portrayals in Paper Mario. Except maybe Morton, but that dialogue is still humorous (and SSS+BM so far seems to indicate that's his new personality going forward)
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At least in the main story. Not sure about Minion Quest.
ThatGuy62
Boo
Fawfulthegreat64 said:
They all feel very one note. Bowser Jr. in Sticker Star was basically "NYARGLEBARGLE GIMME YOUR STICKERS" until the airship where wanted revenge. It feels like he's there just because, especially after Paper Jam and Mario + Rabbids got far more mileage out of the character. It also feels weird that his only interaction with Bowser is in the credits and one off-screen scene
and I'm still mad they didn't use him for Color Splash. It's NSMB2 all over again. 
The Koopalings have the same issue in Color Splash: Outside of two of them or so, you don't really see them much and I preferred their personalities in Paper Jam since those felt closer to the "intended" personalities (Iggy and Roy were the only two I preferred in Color Splash and the former seems to be like that in Minion Quest anyway so...). Their interactions and just seeing them more often in Paper Jam also helped their portrayals there.
Fawfulthegreat64 said:
Eh, I'd wait until Minion Quest to decide. That line is still grammatically correct.
First of all, I think the point about PMCS Morton is not whether he's likeable or not. The problem I see is that the SMB3 manual clearly showed him both as talking properly and also being aware and worried about the risks - something well shown in PJ.
When the personality of a character changes so drasticallly, it isn't usually a very good sign...
Anyway, just so you know, SSS+BM Morton is pretty much yet another Morton
When the personality of a character changes so drasticallly, it isn't usually a very good sign...
Anyway, just so you know, SSS+BM Morton is pretty much yet another Morton
Now he talks in a mostly appropriate manner and doesn't boast about his strength by saying MORTON STRONG! MORTON MORE TONS!, but still he talks in a simple way in all caps often naming himself with the third person. As an example, he says "MINIONS AND TOADS DO WHAT MORTON TELLS THEM." and "SMART MINIONS JOIN ME. DUMMIES GET BEAT UP." I would wait for the Japanese version and the other localizations, though, as this might just be Treehouse doing what they think is funny
Mcmadness
The idiot who puts things in the wrong board.
Well I'm not surprised. I always felt that Paper Mario wasn't very good with personalities for main series characters. Peach and Luigi being like, the major exceptions and even for Luigi he barely does anything and when the one game he is involved with, he spends most of it not as himself..
ThatGuy62
Boo
Mister Wu said:
Dang it. He was fine in Paper Jam, why'd they change it?
Also, you hit the nail on the head. Most of the Koopalings seemed pretty close to their SMB3 personalities and even their new ones in a few ways (such as Larry who's short tempered and occasionally a goof). For Color Splash, ones like Lemmy and Morton were pretty different.
Hey Bowser was pretty good in the first two gamesMcmadness said:
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ThatGuy62 said:
He had pretty much the same personality in the third game, just less screentime