Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam

[LeftyGreenMario]

I'm fine with two Bowsers, I guess. I just don't want a X-Naut/Shadow Queen/Fawful/Dimentio/Mimi monster thing unless the game clearly intended that as a joke because that's what it is.

 

[Mcmadness]

Two Bowsers is twice the level of glorious ham.

Spoiler

totally not biased at all

 

[Magikrazy]

I'm fine with two Bowsers, I guess. I just don't want a X-Naut/Shadow Queen/Fawful/Dimentio/Mimi monster thing unless the game clearly intended that as a joke because that's what it is.

I'd like to see a scene where Super Duper Dimentio pops out of the book and declares his intentions to destroy the world.

And then M&L Bowser just crumples him up and throws him away.

 

[Mcmadness]

I'd like to see a scene where Super Duper Dimentio pops out of the book and declares his intentions to destroy the world.

And then M&L Bowser just crumples him up and throws him away.

I'd thoroughly enjoy that.

 

[LeftyGreenMario]

I'm fine with two Bowsers, I guess. I just don't want a X-Naut/Shadow Queen/Fawful/Dimentio/Mimi monster thing unless the game clearly intended that as a joke because that's what it is.

I'd like to see a scene where Super Duper Dimentio pops out of the book and declares his intentions to destroy the world.

And then M&L Bowser just crumples him up and throws him away.

That would be amazing, but RPG fan zealots will interpret that as Nintendo actively giving them the middle finger and the piss.

 

[Mcmadness]

I'd say it's appropriate retribution for years of being pushed aside by these one off antagonists.

Plus I think Dimentio is a *bleep* villain so seeing him treated like garbage is only furthering my enjoyment.

 

[Gumball Machine]

I'd say it's appropriate retribution for years of being pushed aside by these one off antagonists.

Not their fault Bowser's a moron. Only reason Bowser hasn't been offed like them is because he has "main character armor".

 

[Mcmadness]

Not their fault Bowser's a moron. Only reason Bowser hasn't been offed like them is because he has "main character armor".

More like the writers would constantly dumb him down. And ignoring plot armor the main reason he's still around is because he's the king of an extremely resilient race of beings.

 

[SolarBlaze]

That would be amazing, but RPG fan zealots will interpret that as Nintendo actively giving them the middle finger and the piss.

That's pretty much what it would be. The fact that the game even exists in the first place is already enough of an insult in and of itself without something like that happening, even if Magikrazy's post was a joke.

 

[Magikrazy]

It was kinda a joke, but I would indeed find a scene like that funny.

Spoiler: long

Another scene I'd like to see is where Dimentio comes out of the book and threatens to destroy the world. But Fawful appears and accuses Dimentio of mocking him. They bicker for a while and Fawful finally shouts, "I HAVE OUTRAGE!" and transforms into Dark Fawful. Dimentio then turns into Super Dimentio (with Mr. L, who appears out of nowhere for the sake of transforming). They then start growing and a new character named Lilly the Fairy or something explains that the Prognosticus of Average Brightness foretold of Fawful and Dimentio growing this tall and fighting. She then goes on to say her father never loved her and her mom died from a Starman overdose. This is never brought up again, but the Prognosticus of Average Brightness foretold that it wouldn't, so it's all good.

Back to Fawful and Dimentio, they're finally at their peak height and dramatic music plays. They then start gingerly slapping each other. Everyone starts losing their fucking minds, especially Bowser, who is peeing his pants and crying for his mommy. The Prognosticus of Average Brightness foretold he would do so. Lilly the Fairy then says, "ONLY TRUE LOVE'S KISS CAN SAVE THE WORLD!" So she makes Fawful and Dimentio kiss. They stop fighting and return to normal. They then fall in love and get married. The Prognosticus of Average Brightness then foretells that they have a kid named Fawfmentio. It also says Fawfmentio will be the antagonist of the next Paper Mario, but that's actually not true because not every fucking prediction is true.

And then Mario says, "also I was here thanks for playing"

 

[Daniel Dyce]

Mario RPG's are serious business apparently.

 

[LeftyGreenMario]

Even if their plot is so ridiculous and/or cliche they might as well have a minimal plot.

 

[Daniel Dyce]

I just want this game to have solid gameplay and the charm of the two series.

 

[EctoBiologist]

It was kinda a joke, but I would indeed find a scene like that funny.

Spoiler: long

Another scene I'd like to see is where Dimentio comes out of the book and threatens to destroy the world. But Fawful appears and accuses Dimentio of mocking him. They bicker for a while and Fawful finally shouts, "I HAVE OUTRAGE!" and transforms into Dark Fawful. Dimentio then turns into Super Dimentio (with Mr. L, who appears out of nowhere for the sake of transforming). They then start growing and a new character named Lilly the Fairy or something explains that the Prognosticus of Average Brightness foretold of Fawful and Dimentio growing this tall and fighting. She then goes on to say her father never loved her and her mom died from a Starman overdose. This is never brought up again, but the Prognosticus of Average Brightness foretold that it wouldn't, so it's all good.

Back to Fawful and Dimentio, they're finally at their peak height and dramatic music plays. They then start gingerly slapping each other. Everyone starts losing their fucking minds, especially Bowser, who is peeing his pants and crying for his mommy. The Prognosticus of Average Brightness foretold he would do so. Lilly the Fairy then says, "ONLY TRUE LOVE'S KISS CAN SAVE THE WORLD!" So she makes Fawful and Dimentio kiss. They stop fighting and return to normal. They then fall in love and get married. The Prognosticus of Average Brightness then foretells that they have a kid named Fawfmentio. It also says Fawfmentio will be the antagonist of the next Paper Mario, but that's actually not true because not every fucking prediction is true.

And then Mario says, "also I was here thanks for playing"

Spoiler: long

Fawfulthegreat would go apeshit if that ever happened.

 

[Mcmadness]

I just want this game to have solid gameplay and the charm of the two series.

Well it at least looks like it will be a solid M&L game.

 

[Tyrell Badd]

If Sticker Star is really a "new continuity", I hope the series dies soon since it has essentially become New Super Paper Mario Bros.

Aside from the environments, how exactly? Don't attribute shitty gameplay to New Super Mario Bros..

Just to get this out of the way, I'm actually not on of the people that hates Sticker Star, I thought it was mediocre. I guess some people can take that the wrong way, but whatever.

Aside from the environments which you already mentioned, the vast majority of the enemies are just from NSMB games, removing enemies that have been in the series since the beginning (i.e. Ruff Puffs, Clefts, Putrid Piranhas, etc). People can shit on Super Paper Mario all they want, but at least they still brought in new enemies even if the designs were questionable at times (coughCherbilscough).

The enemies themselves were also homogenized to look like the enemies in the NSMB series. Buzzy Beetles went from looking cute with beady black eyes, to the red-eyed evil looking ones in the NSMB series. Goombas no longer have yellow bodies and red feet, Boos don't look dorky, etc. Some people probably don't give a shit, but I feel like it takes out some of the charm of the series. The bosses themselves were just larger versions of regular enemies for the most part too.

Not to mention the story is as bare-bones as it gets, like the NSMB series. I know the Mario series isn't exactly the pinnacle of storytelling, but at least in the first three Paper Marios, there was more to it than "Bowser kidnaps Peach." Not to mention that Bowser himself, who undeniably had some of, if not the best lines in the Paper series is now mute.

The vast majority of the NPCs are also all Toads. The only distinguishing feature of them are different colored spots and vests, but if they're not Toads you have great NPCs like Wiggler the.....Wiggler and Snifit the guess what he is. I mean, holy shit, at least give your generic looking NPCs some non-generic names, although I guess that's the beauty of the devs not giving a damn about the NPCs. Once again people can shit all over Super Paper Mario all they want, but they at least had NPCs that were unique in that game, even if, once again, the designs weren't exactly stellar.

This isn't even delving into the numerous gameplay problems the game has. Also, I actually like the NSMB series, save for NSMB2, which was a shitty cashgrab game.

If people are fine with these changes to the series and hope it continues like this, then my condolences to being fine with mediocrity.

 

[Mcmadness]

I just found the game mediocre. It's got concepts plus ideas that I like and stuff that I don't.

I like the idea of focusing on main series characters, I don't like how it focused on such a narrow group of em.

I like Bowser being the antagonist, I don't like him never saying a word.

I like the idea of putting more emphasis on paper, I don't like using consumables to battle enemies.

I like the idea of a fast paced experience with only Mario as the one doing the fighting, I don't like how there is no exp or leveling.

 

[Ray Trace]

The enemies themselves were also homogenized to look like the enemies in the NSMB series. Buzzy Beetles went from looking cute with beady black eyes, to the red-eyed evil looking ones in the NSMB series. Goombas no longer have yellow bodies and red feet, Boos don't look dorky, etc. Some people probably don't give a *bleep*, but I feel like it takes out some of the charm of the series. The bosses themselves were just larger versions of regular enemies for the most part too.

Actually, that's not true at all. Those designs were actually taken from other Mario platformer games at their time, and weren't updated until Sticker Star.

 

[Magikrazy]

I do miss Clubbas, but I like the new designs.

Also, I hope the next time they introduce new enemies (if), they integrate them into the rest of the series. I'm all for new enemies, but I'm also all for consistency.

 

[Mcmadness]

That's pretty much what it would be. The fact that the game even exists in the first place is already enough of an insult in and of itself without something like that happening, even if Magikrazy's post was a joke.

Of course you wouldn't be complaining if the exact opposite happened.

 

[SolarBlaze]

Do you mean to tell me that you wouldn't complain if it was Bowser that it happened to, instead?

 

[Mcmadness]

Sure I'd be irritated but I'd hardly treat it like a slap to the face. I put up with it for years afterall.

 

[LeftyGreenMario]

If Sticker Star is really a "new continuity", I hope the series dies soon since it has essentially become New Super Paper Mario Bros.

Aside from the environments, how exactly? Don't attribute *bleep*ty gameplay to New Super Mario Bros..

Just to get this out of the way, I'm actually not on of the people that hates Sticker Star, I thought it was mediocre. I guess some people can take that the wrong way, but whatever.

Aside from the environments which you already mentioned, the vast majority of the enemies are just from NSMB games, removing enemies that have been in the series since the beginning (i.e. Ruff Puffs, Clefts, Putrid Piranhas, etc). People can *bleep* on Super Paper Mario all they want, but at least they still brought in new enemies even if the designs were questionable at times (coughCherbilscough).

The enemies themselves were also homogenized to look like the enemies in the NSMB series. Buzzy Beetles went from looking cute with beady black eyes, to the red-eyed evil looking ones in the NSMB series. Goombas no longer have yellow bodies and red feet, Boos don't look dorky, etc. Some people probably don't give a *bleep*, but I feel like it takes out some of the charm of the series. The bosses themselves were just larger versions of regular enemies for the most part too.

Not to mention the story is as bare-bones as it gets, like the NSMB series. I know the Mario series isn't exactly the pinnacle of storytelling, but at least in the first three Paper Marios, there was more to it than "Bowser kidnaps Peach." Not to mention that Bowser himself, who undeniably had some of, if not the best lines in the Paper series is now mute.

The vast majority of the NPCs are also all Toads. The only distinguishing feature of them are different colored spots and vests, but if they're not Toads you have great NPCs like Wiggler the.....Wiggler and Snifit the guess what he is. I mean, holy *bleep*, at least give your generic looking NPCs some non-generic names, although I guess that's the beauty of the devs not giving a dang about the NPCs. Once again people can *bleep* all over Super Paper Mario all they want, but they at least had NPCs that were unique in that game, even if, once again, the designs weren't exactly stellar.

This isn't even delving into the numerous gameplay problems the game has. Also, I actually like the NSMB series, save for NSMB2, which was a *bleep*ty cashgrab game.

If people are fine with these changes to the series and hope it continues like this, then my condolences to being fine with mediocrity.

The characterization is bad, I give you that, and that's may be New Super Mario Bros. to blame, maybe not, since the stripped character thing is common throughout Mario games, unfortunately. In my case, I'd rather have a bunch of Toads rather than the *bleep*ty "unique" stick figures any day. If they botched NPC design to that degree, better just stick to Toads. And besides, the NPC designs in the Mario & Luigi games aren't too stellar either if they aren't using Toads. I guess the Zeekeeper costume things and Pi'illos are fine, but the Shelltops? They're Toads. They're "different" but not that interesting. They're a forgettable, dispensable NPC type that could've been just Toads or other existing Mario species. I think that applies to most NPC Mario species restricted to the MaRPGs.

I don't 100% support how Clefts, Koopatrols, Koopas with sunglasses, and other recurring enemies are pretty much gone, but I don't miss Clefts. I kind of liked to see the rest back, though, like Putrid Piranha.

I also give you that the environments aren't really good either and that's mainly a New Super Mario Bros. thing. The environmental tropes should stay out of Mario games for a while unless something actually creative with them can be done.

The first Paper Mario is an ideal story, but Thousand-Year Door and Super Paper Mario has this out-of-place darkness that I really don't want in another Mario game ever again. Like Shadow Queen, Dimentio, Count Bleck, whatever. They're cringe-worthy. Even Mario & Luigi has this contrived plot of the typical MacGuffin thing that good people seal it, but bad guy steals it. I think it's better that they just focus on the characterization, which I already agreed with you, is pretty atrocious in Sticker Star. But that's not a component of New Super Mario Bros.. It's just... a thing. You see this dialogue-less crap in Mario & Sonic, Brawl, and the mainline Mario games since after Galaxy 2, so it's not a New Super Mario Bros. thing.

Additionally, the "bigger than normal" boss is definitely not a New Super Mario Bros. thing. That's just Sticker Star being uncreative.

The "New Super Mario Bros." design argument is what I'm mainly anticipating. But as my sister pointed out, those "Paper Mario" designs are taken from their contemporary designs at the time. Note here. I think they changed in the first place, and why it took them so because it's a gradual kind of thing. Finally, Yoshi hasn't appeared in any Paper Mario game since Thousand-Year Door. What would he look like if he was in Super Paper Mario and in Sticker Star? Yoshi looks like his older design at Thousand-Year Door, mind you.

Hammer Bro.
Hammer Bros. weren't even given shoes and their current design until Mario Party. Granted, Mario Party came before Paper Mario, but it's not like Paper Mario took a lot of creative liberties with their design if you factor their mainstream design at the time. And Thousand-Year Door added shoes anyway, which does resemble Mario Party's Hammer Bro. more. When Hammer Bros.'s shoe re design became much more common and became the new mainstream design, so did Paper Mario's Hammer Bros.. Keep in mind, ALL of those games I mentioned are well before New Super Mario Bros..

Paper Mario

Super Mario Bros.

Mario Party and Mario Party 3

Dance Dance Revolution: Mario Mix

Super Princess Peach

Goomba
The Goomba's "Paper Mario" design is from Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island, with their exaggerated eyebrows and all. They decide to stick with it for a while in Thousand-Year Door, but there really isn't a HUGE difference between this Goomba and the typical Goomba. It's not the "New Super Mario Bros." Goomba, it's the standard design since Super Mario Bros. And most enemies do use their standard design and it's not necessarily "personality-less".

Paper Mario

Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island.

Super Mario Bros.

Buzzy Beetle
The "glowing" eyes thing is not a New Super Mario Bros. thing. New Super Mario Bros. may have revived it, but to be fair, we hadn't have a mainstream 2D Mario platformer in a while before New Super Mario Bros.. I'm not fond of the glowing eyes either. The dotted eyes isn't even a Paper Mario design. They're most likely based on the Para-Beetles of Super Mario Bros and their feet is likely based on Super Mario World. That makes it an appealing combination of designs. I say it's one of the most Paper Mario-associated designs, but it's taken from other existing games, and New Super Mario Bros. isn't to blame for the glowing eyes.

Paper Mario

Super Mario Bros.

Boo
Definitely not a "Paper Mario" design. It's taken directly from Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island. And in my personal opinion, that upper lip design is pretty hideous.

Paper Mario

Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island

Dry Bones
It's another hideous one that was changed for the better, IMO. But again, the design isn't Paper Mario; it's taken directly from the latest platformer at the time: Super Mario World. Their "New Super Mario Bros." design isn't "New Super Mario Bros." either. It's from Mario Superstar Baseball, which again, came before New Super Mario Bros.. You had three more games before New Super Mario Bros.: Super Princess Peach, Mario Party 7, and Mario Kart DS, which all used that design. New Super Mario Bros. only helped standardize it.

Paper Mario

Super Mario World

One good exception to the "homogeneous design" is Lakitu.

The only "original" design not taken from any platformer is arguably the Spiny, but that thing looked hideous.

But, the entire point of this post is, there is too much credit given to Paper Mario and too much blame given to New Super Mario Bros. when it comes to design, so if you want to criticize the New Super Mario Bros. elements, criticize its environment and characterization and maybe the sore lack of recurring enemies like Clefts or Clubbas. Keep in mind that the main reason Sticker Star sucked is from its bad characterization and its crappy gameplay. Everything else is usually a side thought.

I just found the game mediocre. It's got concepts plus ideas that I like and stuff that I don't.

I like the idea of focusing on main series characters, I don't like how it focused on such a narrow group of em.

I like Bowser being the antagonist, I don't like him never saying a word.

I like the idea of putting more emphasis on paper, I don't like using consumables to battle enemies.

I like the idea of a fast paced experience with only Mario as the one doing the fighting, I don't like how there is no exp or leveling.

I can agree with this, and I still say that New Super Mario Bros. is partially the reason for a few of these, but it still gets too much blame.

 

[Mcmadness]

I'm one who definitely prefers the current designs to the older ones. At this point the only PM character I can think of thats still rooted in the old ways is Bowser since he's still hunched over like his earlier designs instead of a more upright one he's had since the gamecube days.

But I don't mind how he currently looks so it's ultimately a non issue.

And I agree that NSMB gets a bit too much blame for things, not just SS but other things as well.

 

[LeftyGreenMario]

I think the main characters themselves would benefit from going through an overhaul too (and Paper Mario did go through a small design change in the transition to Thousand-Year Door). In fact, the first Paper Mario looks the most like the normal Mario. The later designs became more simplified. Here's a visualization of it.

I remember ftg64 freaking out about the suggestion (not by me, just in general) of Mario designed just like his normal self. I kind of want to see how they'll pull off a paper design that resembles this:

I think I'll like that, too. Maybe prefer it, because I hold the unpopular opinion that I'm not too fond of Paper Mario's current design.