Unpopular opinions about the Mario series

Starfire

Alien superhero princess
You might not like Kersti but don't throw Color Splash into that lump because Huey is a genuinely great character.

Also you give SPM's partners too much credit, all main party members except Tippi were pre-established characters with personalities already set in stone. Tippi has some pretty great character development but she's really the only one.
Yeah I've heard good things about Huey but I doubt he'll be good enough to compare to TTYD or SPM

I stand by my praise to SPM's partners. Tippi is probably THE best partner out of all the Mario games I have played. As for the others, they were genuinely excellent, they stay true to their presentation to their roles in other games and build on them in lots of other ways. Having Bowser and Peach as major protagonists and playable characters at the same time is quite rare in the Mario franchise (though by no means a one off) and Luigi was really cool and brave especially in 8-3. Sure the latter three weren't entirely original like the partners in the first two but considering how non-Mario 90% of this game feels like I'm not complaining. As I have said in this thread previously, they feel like a sole point of familiarity, comfort, and humour in a highly atmospheric strange world.
 

Ribbon

Fairy of Ripple Star
Poll Committee
I stand by my praise to SPM's partners. Tippi is probably THE best partner out of all the Mario games I have played. As for the others, they were genuinely excellent, they stay true to their presentation to their roles in other games and build on them in lots of other ways. Having Bowser and Peach as major protagonists and playable characters at the same time is quite rare in the Mario franchise (though by no means a one off) and Luigi was really cool and brave especially in 8-3. Sure the latter three weren't entirely original like the partners in the first two but considering how non-Mario 90% of this game feels like I'm not complaining. As I have said in this thread previously, they feel like a sole point of familiarity, comfort, and humour in a highly atmospheric strange world.
I think you misunderstood my point. I think it's a great thing that they used established characters as partners. But I also think that it's an unfair advantage when comparing them to other partners in the series. Of course they're great; they had more than one game to develop a personality in.
 

Wicked Clown-nak

Too Fat to Release
Huey is proof Intelligent Systems can still write good original PM characters but arbitrarily limit themselves to just the mouthpiece of the week. He is a great character and IMO could fit as a partner in a traditional PM game.
 

Princess Mario

✨Mushroom Kingdom's fabulously glittery plumber✨
Also, I can't stress it enough, the party members needed to have some dialogue together, instead of acting like Mario's braindead bodyguards. I mean, I shouldn't bring FE into this but it was made by the same company as specifically Paper Mario and it has a mechanic that lets your characters interact, and they should've made use of it somehow here. The only character that I fealt really got some development was Vivian, really. And all she has is starting out on the enemy side.

So yeah. TTYD's real claim to fame in my opinion is pretty much its core gameplay, mainly the battle system. The bosses are pretty good.
This is why I prefer Mario & Luigi over Paper Mario. Luigi's a far more interesting party member. Heck, Luigi being a party member is why Mario & Luigi are so loved, since it lends to so many opportunities of siblings messing with each other.

And this is also where Mario's lack of dialogue comes to hurt other characters. Sure, it's a frequent complaint by me that Mario's silent nature is bad for Mario but I'd argue it's bad for Mario's friends too. Since Mario can't really interact besides simple nods and gestures and player responses, partners just can't say much if they're out only one at a time, and they can't develop as Mario doesn't develop either. They might as well talk to themselves or make dumb one-liner quips that adds nothing to the event. It's really awkward. It's offputting when you think about it. So, if partners have dialogue together, with whom? There's quite a few of them. It'll be fine if Koops and Goombella talked to each other, but there's still that problem of Mario just standing there and staring and there's way too many combinations of partners to make dialogue flow coherently. And since there's quite a few of them scattered in the game, there's basically little chance for the latter party members to have development unless they're already early in the game. Only the two Goombas really have more than short quips outside their chapters but even then, they're just souped up flavor text.

There's a huge advantage in using established characters in that they already have interacted with Mario a lot of times so we know what to expect from them, and they can still be developed as with the others. Partner personality are pretty much limited to the chapter they're in and I think people are overstating their personalities. People like partners probably for their design, function, and their little arc, but they don't offer much beyond that.
 

Princess of Tennis

the one that hearts a lot
Finally, someone agrees. I've always felt that enemy tattles are an indispensable tool for new enemies, and that field tattles are an important part of the game's overall personality.
Oh same, I liked to use her tattle on EVERYTHING. Honestly her and Goombario might have some unintended character growth just by their narrations. Also worth mentioning on their usefulness, when you unlock their infinite headbonks
 

Starfire

Alien superhero princess
I think you misunderstood my point. I think it's a great thing that they used established characters as partners. But I also think that it's an unfair advantage when comparing them to other partners in the series. Of course they're great; they had more than one game to develop a personality in.
I'm not sure. Mario plots tend to be very shallow and Mario is "the hero who defeats the bad guy and saves the princess." Peach is "the princess who gets kidnapped and whom needs to be saved." Bowser is "the evil guy who steals the princess but always loses to the hero." and Luigi is "the brother who accompanies the hero."

I adore the Mario RPGs for the ways that they build on these fundamental outlines and make them much more fleshed out characters, often in different ways - in Superstar Saga he lost his memory and then got possessed, in BIS he goes around doing powerful stuff whilst Mario and Luigi are unknowingly helping him all along inside his body. And with SPM being my first Mario RPG (followed closely by BIS and then not TTYD until years later) this was a very welcome suprise coming out a game which looked like nothing more than a gimmicky shallow platformer with papery graphics.

This is why I prefer Mario & Luigi over Paper Mario. Luigi's a far more interesting party member. Heck, Luigi being a party member is why Mario & Luigi are so loved, since it lends to so many opportunities of siblings messing with each other.
TTYD's Luigi was pretty good. SPM's was godly. Don't know about PM64 but apparently SS reduced him to a cameo and CS didn't do much with him either.

I find that the interactions between the bros. and the progression of the plot with both of the brothers as central protagonists who are rarely separated, it's good, but it's not as good as TTYD or SPM.

And this is also where Mario's lack of dialogue comes to hurt other characters. Sure, it's a frequent complaint by me that Mario's silent nature is bad for Mario but I'd argue it's bad for Mario's friends too. Since Mario can't really interact besides simple nods and gestures and player responses, partners just can't say much if they're out only one at a time, and they can't develop as Mario doesn't develop either. They might as well talk to themselves or make dumb one-liner quips that adds nothing to the event. It's really awkward. It's offputting when you think about it. So, if partners have dialogue together, with whom? There's quite a few of them. It'll be fine if Koops and Goombella talked to each other, but there's still that problem of Mario just standing there and staring and there's way too many combinations of partners to make dialogue flow coherently.
I always thought Mario's lack of dialogue made Paper Mario sort of special. Because e.g. his conversation with Vivian in TTYD Ch4 amongst many others suggests that the other characters can understand him but the player doesn't have direct knowledge of what he says, which makes for a unique presentation.

TTYD has some excellent character devlopment. When Mario starts the adventure, he is just an unknown no-one in an unexplored world. But he traverses through it and gains several friends, becomes famous, and saves the world, and when you leave everyone is sad to see him go, but things have turned full circle and you go back to the Mushroom Kingdom. This is powerfully echoed in the music, with "Mail for the Mario Bros." being played only in the intro and the ending, and "Farewell Rogueport" and "Last Look at Rogueport" being remixes of the intro story theme. I played the TTYD credits theme at a talk of mine I gave last Monday and it was even better than the last time, it truly does echo the sad yet also pleasant remembrance of an epic adventure.

And in SPM you always have Tippi out which allows her to be a far more potent partner than any of those in TTYD imo. And if you play as Bowser, Peach, or Luigi, they get extra dialogue as well, or if you play as Mario, more for Tippi. And there are several compulsory cutscenes in which all party members have to speak (e.g. after Bowser is beaten the first time, one of my favourites) which allows for much more interesting development and presentation.
Oh same, I liked to use her tattle on EVERYTHING. Honestly her and Goombario might have some unintended character growth just by their narrations. Also worth mentioning on their usefulness, when you unlock their infinite headbonks
Yes the tattles certainly do make Goombella and Tippi more powerful characters. Can't speak for Goombario yet though. However the Multibonk is not actually infinite, like the Power Bounce it actually has a cap on how many you can do which depends on RNG as well as what enemy you're fighting.
 

Mcmadness

The idiot who puts things in the wrong board.
SPM's was godly.
Luigi in SPM was terrible. I mean Mr L is a funny novelty for a bit but this game was the most Luigi has ever done in this series and he spends most of it not as himself and is only around party wise for 2 chapters, one of which you don't even get to use him for the finale.
 

Starfire

Alien superhero princess
Luigi in SPM was terrible. I mean Mr L is a funny novelty for a bit but this game was the most Luigi has ever done in this series and he spends most of it not as himself and is only around party wise for 2 chapters, one of which you don't even get to use him for the finale.
I'm not going to deny you the right to dislike SPM's presentation of Luigi but I personally adore and whether you like him or hate him there's no denying that Mr. L is hugely popular, which I would say was with good reason. Having him as a villain was certain to be entertaining to people of all ages and give us a unique look at a gentleman-thief persona of Luigi but who still seems to remember Mario (e.g. by calling him "Mr. Jumpsallthetime")
 

Mcmadness

The idiot who puts things in the wrong board.
Mr L is hardly "super popular" like most Mario rpg folk he has a loud but relatively small fanbase.


He also wasn't a gentleman thief type either, he was a Tatsunoko-esque character with the exaggerated poses, the mask and the robot he pilots.
 

Starfire

Alien superhero princess
Mr L is hardly "super popular" like most Mario rpg folk he has a loud but relatively small fanbase.


He also wasn't a gentleman thief type either, he was a Tatsunoko-esque character with the exaggerated poses, the mask and the robot he pilots.
Well considering how underrepresented the Mario RPGs are imo he did very well.

Haven't heard of "Tatsunoko." Meh, didn't think about that comparison too much but he's still really cool to me.
 

Mcmadness

The idiot who puts things in the wrong board.
The rpgs are as "under represented" as any other Mario spin off. In that they aren't. They get as much attention as anything else that isn't absurdly popular like Mario Kart.

Tatsunoko is an anime company that made a lot of major series that many other things have parodied and made homages to over the years. The fact that you don't know doesn't surprise me.
 

Starfire

Alien superhero princess
The rpgs are as "under represented" as any other Mario spin off. In that they aren't. They get as much attention as anything else that isn't absurdly popular like Mario Kart.
I get that compared to a lot of VG franchises they do get a lot of attention and after all Mario is the most famous VG franchise in the world, but still... they just have this awesomely unique charm to them that I haven't found, and doubt I can find, in anything else, and that they're just overshadowed by shallow driving games and platformers, the former of which I have never really been into but will give a second chance per MK8D.

Have you read my VG fav list?
 

Mcmadness

The idiot who puts things in the wrong board.
It's Mario, it's "shallow" by nature, including the rpgs. The only reason the rpgs come off not as such to you as due to the genre by it's very nature requiring less reflexes and more basic number crunching for stats and puzzles to be solved.

And you make no effort to actually explore outside of them so you'll never find this "unique charm" you think they have.
 

Starfire

Alien superhero princess
It's Mario, it's "shallow" by nature, including the rpgs. The only reason the rpgs come off not as such to you as due to the genre by it's very nature requiring less reflexes and more basic number crunching for stats and puzzles to be solved.

And you make no effort to actually explore outside of them so you'll never find this "unique charm" you think they have.
I was talking about the story, characters, dialogue, enviroments, atmospheres, and music rather than gameplay mainly there but if I am talking gameplay I actually find games such as TTYD the perfect balance between too simple and too complex. Though SPM when I was younger was cool for that as well in that it was not at all complicated but unique with a few RPG elements thrown in there and I still find it tolerable at least nowadays.

Well not really, it's just that I don't feel I can attach myself to non Mario RPGs as much. I tried Zelda and it was good but not the same. I'm trying Fire Emblem some time as well but IDK. I just don't feel I can deeply attach myself to an RPG from a franchise famed for being deep and fantasy-like and doesn't involve that beloved plumber. I mean I've said this several times before but you get the point I hope.
 

Mcmadness

The idiot who puts things in the wrong board.
Even the stories are "shallow" basic stuff as well. You have the good guys and the badguys who are trying to takeover/destroy the world because evil. Or in Count Bleck's case because sad. There is no real moral complexity, no deeper meanings, no intricate political or philosophical themes to be explored.

It's all simple and basic because these games were meant to be played by anyone of any age, including small children.

Also for somebody like you I'd probably recommend more action oriented rpgs like the Tales of series or the mana series. Those are pretty good places to start.
 

Starfire

Alien superhero princess
Even the stories are "shallow" basic stuff as well. You have the good guys and the badguys who are trying to takeover/destroy the world because evil. Or in Count Bleck's case because sad. There is no real moral complexity, no deeper meanings, no intricate political or philosophical themes to be explored.

It's all simple and basic because these games were meant to be played by anyone of any age, including small children.

Also for somebody like you I'd probably recommend more action oriented rpgs like the Tales of series or the mana series. Those are pretty good places to start.
I said, it's deep for a Mario game and this makes it quite special to many including myself.

Yes, I appreciated SPM and BIS as a small child and I have grown up to continue loving them. That is the kind of magic Mario RPGs have, to entertain a child who will retain nostalgia decades into the future. I'm not sure playing Final Fantasy or something would have been able to pull me in as much even at that age.

Ok I might give it a thought but I doubt anything as big as Paper Mario will come out of this. Don't have a Playstation though so that might be a limiting factor. I was going to go for Radiant Dawn (same composers as SPM + already have the hardware to play it)
 

Rinka Hayami

Koops, King of cowards.
"Deep for a Mario game" isn't exactly saying much. It still isn't deep.

I haven't played Radiant Dawn myself but its story is actually pretty good imo. A lot of things happening in the world, multiple POVs, and it's a rather complex development (I know you even can unlock quite a bit of story if you play a second time). Oh and the narration is voice-acted.

Although if you can I'd definitely recommend playing Path of Radiance as well. Really amazing game. When I say a game surpassed Mario Galaxy in my list of faves, you know that game did something.
 

Starfire

Alien superhero princess
mario kart isn't shallow
I can only speak for MKW so far but that game has zero plot, zero original characters, made no interesting revisions to any existing characters, had utterly forgettable music and design, awful controls, repetitive maps, uuughh I won't moan any further about my least favourite Mario game that I own.
 

Shy Guy on Wheels

Hornet from Daytona USA for Smash
zero plot, zero original characters, made no interesting revisions to any existing characters
Yes, because character development and story is a priority in a racing games, that's also a spin-off off a series that is not known for having character development or stories.

had utterly forgettable music and design
What do you mean by design? (music is very subjective so that's a fair criticism)

awful controls
buy a classic or GC controller

repetitive maps
Each track is visually distinct, and has unique gimmicks to make them more interesting. Moo Moo Meadow's cows that slowly move, Mushroom Gorge's mushrooms, Koopa Cape's water stream, Grumble Volcano falling apart, and Moonview Highway's vehicles that drive across the entire track are just are few examples of these gimmicks. The only track that I can think that doesn't have one is Luigi Circuit.
 

Princess Mario

✨Mushroom Kingdom's fabulously glittery plumber✨
did you seriously play a mario kart game expecting a plot and character development?

how would you expect a mario kart plot to go?

an evil go-kart that wants to take over the world?
Don't make me ask for a plot where said kart also steals the mystic car keys and causes everyone to race uncontrollably, and you have to race to cross a river.
 
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