Should Wario return to a Mario game?
- Thread starter Buzzy Beto
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Specific Neptune
how're you doin'
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I reckon Wario should return, only slightly thinner, wearing red and blue, less pronounced moustache, softer voice, and he goes by the name of "Mario"
jk but I think we should have him back again. I want to see a massive choice of character selection in the next big mario title, ranging from Mario, Luigi, Wario, WAAAAAluigi, Yoshi, Peach, Bowser, DK and more, and they all have specific powers that you need to complete the levels
you could even do multiplayer mode
alternatively how about a villain's mario game, with Wario and Waluigi taking Mario and Luigi's place? I think that would be nifty. Still waiting on Wario Land 5/6...
jk but I think we should have him back again. I want to see a massive choice of character selection in the next big mario title, ranging from Mario, Luigi, Wario, WAAAAAluigi, Yoshi, Peach, Bowser, DK and more, and they all have specific powers that you need to complete the levels
you could even do multiplayer mode
alternatively how about a villain's mario game, with Wario and Waluigi taking Mario and Luigi's place? I think that would be nifty. Still waiting on Wario Land 5/6...
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Slightly!?The Entire Galactic Empire said:
You oughta get your eyes checked!
I don't see what's wrong with a huge cast of characters to play as in a Mario platformer. They don't even need to have different playstyles, they're just player tokens like the characters in Mario Party games.
Czario
Rightful ruler of the kingdom of Russia!
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Mario has thinned out over the years, just like Sonic, Pikachu, and many other mascot characters.LeftyGreenMario said:
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I think it's quite the difference!
Koopaul
Cheep Cheep
I think it's interesting the Super Mario Run introduced a bunch of Mario characters in the 2D platforming style, including Daisy. So it wouldn't be impossible to have another 2D Mario game with a bunch of famous Mario characters, including Wario himself.
I think it would be even easier to do it with another 3D World type game since you don't have to worry as much about on-the-pixel precise platforming. Allowing characters with a different stance, like Donkey Kong, to join in.
Yup, always been a dream of mine to see the usuals in Mario sports titles become playable in a platformer. And Daisy in Super Mario Run gives me hope. So here's hoping Wario will be one of them.
I think it would be even easier to do it with another 3D World type game since you don't have to worry as much about on-the-pixel precise platforming. Allowing characters with a different stance, like Donkey Kong, to join in.
Yup, always been a dream of mine to see the usuals in Mario sports titles become playable in a platformer. And Daisy in Super Mario Run gives me hope. So here's hoping Wario will be one of them.
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I don't think games generally need to worry about this pixel-precise platforming. Mario Party beat the platformers to the punch a while ago having characters like Waluigi and Donkey Kong be on equal grounds against Toad and Boo.
Koopaul
Cheep Cheep
Those are very different series. 2D Mario platformers are entirely grid based. I'm sure you played Super Mario Maker. A character needs to reasonably be able to stand and fit in between two brick blocks. Otherwise it won't work.
DK standing on all fours means he's longer than other characters. Can you picture him fitting between two brick blocks?
The fundamentals of classic 2D Mario require this because, say there are a row of floating brick blocks above you. You should be able to break a single block in that row and then jump through inbetween the rows of bricks and on to of them.
Could DK and his bulky body do that?
EDIT: Here's something I sloppily photoshopped just now. (Yes this is the best screenshot I could find of two brick blocks with a space between them)
DK can't slip through reasonably between those blocks. And I've shrunk him down to be the height of Luigi.
DK standing on all fours means he's longer than other characters. Can you picture him fitting between two brick blocks?
The fundamentals of classic 2D Mario require this because, say there are a row of floating brick blocks above you. You should be able to break a single block in that row and then jump through inbetween the rows of bricks and on to of them.
Could DK and his bulky body do that?
EDIT: Here's something I sloppily photoshopped just now. (Yes this is the best screenshot I could find of two brick blocks with a space between them)
DK can't slip through reasonably between those blocks. And I've shrunk him down to be the height of Luigi.
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I'd imagine they'll just bullshit with the hit detection.
J-Yoshi64
Always remembering Walkazo
Or different characters could play entirely differently. As an example, imagine with me, for a moment, a game mode where you play as our beloved Donkey Kong. He is still scaled down to the size shown in Koopaul's pic.
As Koopaul pointed out, DK doesn't fit through single-block gaps. Therefore, what if DK needed to use different paths? What if DK could climb walls? What if he could break brick blocks apart by punching them? There are so many options outside of Mario and Luigi's basics.
Now whether or not Nintendo changes the gameplay mechanics is another can of worms entirely. That's not what I want to focus on in this scenario.
Koopaul said:
As Koopaul pointed out, DK doesn't fit through single-block gaps. Therefore, what if DK needed to use different paths? What if DK could climb walls? What if he could break brick blocks apart by punching them? There are so many options outside of Mario and Luigi's basics.
Now whether or not Nintendo changes the gameplay mechanics is another can of worms entirely. That's not what I want to focus on in this scenario.
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platformers don't necessarily need to be grid based and restrictive like the New Super Mario Bros. series. Kirby's Return to Dreamland certainly didn't, and they downscaled King Dedede quite a bit to make him fit a little more (sometimes, King Dedede was far bigger than Kirby). With your Donkey Kong argument, you do realize that, er, smaller kongs such as Diddy and Dixie are playable characters in Donkey Kong Returns and/or Tropical Freeze, right? How about the Rayman games? They featured a character as tall as Globox playing alongside fine with small little Teensies. Hell, with your image, theoretically, Mario riding Yoshi doesn't even fit through the gap at all, since Donkey Kong occupies as much space as when riding Yoshi.
Your argument is an extremely weak argument. If there are holes, developers can easily bypass that or change things around to make it work. Sometimes, it's too much work than necessary to create a game, but for more playable characters, I don't think the general user cares that Wario can't perfectly slip through cracks in an outdated, obsolete grid-based system the New Super Mario Bros. games employs.
Your argument is an extremely weak argument. If there are holes, developers can easily bypass that or change things around to make it work. Sometimes, it's too much work than necessary to create a game, but for more playable characters, I don't think the general user cares that Wario can't perfectly slip through cracks in an outdated, obsolete grid-based system the New Super Mario Bros. games employs.
Borp
Lakitu
If they included both Wario and Donkey Kong and made it so they're the only characters who can't fit through a 1-block space by default (where as any other character would only be restricted if they were riding Yoshi, assuming Yoshi weren't playable on his own), then I could actually get behind them being in a standard Mario game.
Wario would probably work best if he played almost exactly like he did in Wario Land and Virtual Boy Wario Land. Whether or not he'd have the same power-ups as in those games is a new issue entirely.
Wario would probably work best if he played almost exactly like he did in Wario Land and Virtual Boy Wario Land. Whether or not he'd have the same power-ups as in those games is a new issue entirely.
Koopaul
Cheep Cheep
@Baby Luigi
But you're not thinking like Nintendo. They're not going to change the gameplay or formula just to get a certain character to work when it's easier to just not have that character in the game at all. The reason why 2D Mario is grid based is because of blocks. Character need to stand on blocks, groundpound through blocks, smash up through blocks, and so on. That stuff only works on a grid.
Now, they could make a totally new type of 2D Mario game that doesn't revolve around platforming on blocks. Like your examples with DKC or Kirby. But that's if and only if Nintendo wants to invents a new approach to making 2D Mario.
I'm not saying DK is impossible to work in there. Anything can work. But is Nintendo willing to do it? Not in a traditional 2D Mario game. That's why I sughested 3D World type game that is not grid based. I'm only making this argument because you have to consider Nintendo's approach to making games.
As for Yoshi, he works in 2D Mario for the same reason why Wario would work... They stand on two feet. As long as the feet fit between the blocks or can stand on a single block, the player knows where the characters central mass is and where they are going to land. Any other part of their body can clip through objects. Like Yoshi's nose and tail or Wario's stomach. They clip through but the feet (the things which you stomp on small Goombas with) can still fit. DK stands on both his feet and hands so where is his central mass and what would clip through the blocks?
Now the easiest way to get DK to work is to either make him stand on two legs, then his bulky arms could clip through the blocks but the player knows their footing. Or to make the blocks and enemies the same size as DK himself! See DKC actually makes every platform and enemy roughly wide enough to match DK's length.
But you're not thinking like Nintendo. They're not going to change the gameplay or formula just to get a certain character to work when it's easier to just not have that character in the game at all. The reason why 2D Mario is grid based is because of blocks. Character need to stand on blocks, groundpound through blocks, smash up through blocks, and so on. That stuff only works on a grid.
Now, they could make a totally new type of 2D Mario game that doesn't revolve around platforming on blocks. Like your examples with DKC or Kirby. But that's if and only if Nintendo wants to invents a new approach to making 2D Mario.
I'm not saying DK is impossible to work in there. Anything can work. But is Nintendo willing to do it? Not in a traditional 2D Mario game. That's why I sughested 3D World type game that is not grid based. I'm only making this argument because you have to consider Nintendo's approach to making games.
As for Yoshi, he works in 2D Mario for the same reason why Wario would work... They stand on two feet. As long as the feet fit between the blocks or can stand on a single block, the player knows where the characters central mass is and where they are going to land. Any other part of their body can clip through objects. Like Yoshi's nose and tail or Wario's stomach. They clip through but the feet (the things which you stomp on small Goombas with) can still fit. DK stands on both his feet and hands so where is his central mass and what would clip through the blocks?
Now the easiest way to get DK to work is to either make him stand on two legs, then his bulky arms could clip through the blocks but the player knows their footing. Or to make the blocks and enemies the same size as DK himself! See DKC actually makes every platform and enemy roughly wide enough to match DK's length.
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And to be honest, I find that hugely restricting and overly reliant on the status quo of what makes a Mario platformer a Mario platformer. Mario platformers aren't as heavily reliant as blocks as you're making out to be: 3D games such as Odyssey or even 3D World have a huge less focus on grid-based block gameplay than the 2D platformers, and I fail to understand why the 2D platformers have to exactly maintain that. It's not like the foundation of the 2D Mario platformers rests on the ability to place tiles and blocks. Let me grab a random screenshot from New Super Mario Bros. games to prove my point:
See? No blocks here. You can easily make an organic level design without relying on the grid structure as using assets here, and character size wouldn't matter as much. In fact, lack of an organic feel to 3D World and NSMB games in their level design when they rely on this grid-based system is one of my biggest complaints about how vanilla these games are. I personally hate the artstyle of using sprite-based, tile structure that the New Super Mario Bros. games rely upon, because it lends itself to a rather outdated and hideous design, especially when they also rely on 3D models for characters and backgrounds and they mesh together horribly. Not to mention, characters in NSMB games already go through clipping issues when they duck through corners and attempt to stand up in the middle of that.
Also, let me introduce you to this minigame, Coin Cache, from Mario Party 5, which involves characters hitting blocks in a similar fashion to how they do in the 2D platformers.
Showing you that, yes, a playable Donkey Kong in a 2D Mario platformer is entirely possible, just like making a good 2D Mario platformer is possible or a 2D Mario platformer that innovates: it's effort, Nintendo is shown to pour effort where necessary, showcasing this off in Odyssey, and designing a game that accommodates more playable characters is nothing Nintendo can't do at all.
EDIT: I also forgot about Smash Bros, which also dealt with your issue of having Donkey Kong hitting blocks Mario-style. And there wasn't any issues with that, specifically concerning where the whole "center mass" of the character is.
Sometimes, the easiest solution of maintaining the status quo because it has worked is not the best solution. When I think adding more playable characters is worth it, I think it's worth tweaking some of the stuff around to allow for it. That's how games evolve. That's how games get better.
I really think you're overcomplicating a playable, quadruped Donkey Kong in a Mario game.
See? No blocks here. You can easily make an organic level design without relying on the grid structure as using assets here, and character size wouldn't matter as much. In fact, lack of an organic feel to 3D World and NSMB games in their level design when they rely on this grid-based system is one of my biggest complaints about how vanilla these games are. I personally hate the artstyle of using sprite-based, tile structure that the New Super Mario Bros. games rely upon, because it lends itself to a rather outdated and hideous design, especially when they also rely on 3D models for characters and backgrounds and they mesh together horribly. Not to mention, characters in NSMB games already go through clipping issues when they duck through corners and attempt to stand up in the middle of that.
Also, let me introduce you to this minigame, Coin Cache, from Mario Party 5, which involves characters hitting blocks in a similar fashion to how they do in the 2D platformers.
Showing you that, yes, a playable Donkey Kong in a 2D Mario platformer is entirely possible, just like making a good 2D Mario platformer is possible or a 2D Mario platformer that innovates: it's effort, Nintendo is shown to pour effort where necessary, showcasing this off in Odyssey, and designing a game that accommodates more playable characters is nothing Nintendo can't do at all.
EDIT: I also forgot about Smash Bros, which also dealt with your issue of having Donkey Kong hitting blocks Mario-style. And there wasn't any issues with that, specifically concerning where the whole "center mass" of the character is.
Sometimes, the easiest solution of maintaining the status quo because it has worked is not the best solution. When I think adding more playable characters is worth it, I think it's worth tweaking some of the stuff around to allow for it. That's how games evolve. That's how games get better.
I really think you're overcomplicating a playable, quadruped Donkey Kong in a Mario game.
Koopaul
Cheep Cheep
And I think you're still misunderstanding Nintendo's own philosophy on game design. Nintendo will not make a game a certain way just so certain characters can be in it. If they happen to make a game that allows those characters to be in there then great, otherwise no.
And yes. Nintendo might make a new 2D Mario with a new formula, but they won't make it with any characters other than Mario in mind. If other characters can work with the new game they made, then they might add them. But otherwise they won't. This isn't MY philosophy this is Nintendo's. But you keep acting like these are my opinions when I'm just stating the facts and knowing how Nintendo's design methods work.
Gameplay first. Characters second.
And honestly it seems like Nintendo wants to keep 2D Mario traditional and tile based, while all other Mario games explore new grounds. I don't know if they will change that. Only time will tell. But anything is possible. All I know is making a new 2D Mario game with the intention of having characters like Donkey Kong in it is unrealistic. If DK is in a new 2D Mario game, which is entirely possible, it's only because Nintendo found that DK complimented the new gameplay.
And yes. Nintendo might make a new 2D Mario with a new formula, but they won't make it with any characters other than Mario in mind. If other characters can work with the new game they made, then they might add them. But otherwise they won't. This isn't MY philosophy this is Nintendo's. But you keep acting like these are my opinions when I'm just stating the facts and knowing how Nintendo's design methods work.
Gameplay first. Characters second.
And honestly it seems like Nintendo wants to keep 2D Mario traditional and tile based, while all other Mario games explore new grounds. I don't know if they will change that. Only time will tell. But anything is possible. All I know is making a new 2D Mario game with the intention of having characters like Donkey Kong in it is unrealistic. If DK is in a new 2D Mario game, which is entirely possible, it's only because Nintendo found that DK complimented the new gameplay.
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I know I'm not thinking the way Nintendo thinks, but that doesn't mean I can't criticize their design decisions, as a consumer of their games. After all, it is a common complaint that the New Super Mario Bros. series is stuck in the past, and how to change it up does require a change in their design philosophy, and that possibly includes multiple playable characters.
This "gameplay only" mantra can only take games so far, especially when the gameplay of the 2D platformers has been rather stagnant lately.
I'm still not going to take their safe, tile-based feel that they feel has worked for them. If they don't want to evolve their games, then why should I get excited over their new 2D Mario platformers any more? Why should I play their games when I have other options that take more risks and chances and are ultimately more fun than their 2D Mario platformers?
This "gameplay only" mantra can only take games so far, especially when the gameplay of the 2D platformers has been rather stagnant lately.
I'm still not going to take their safe, tile-based feel that they feel has worked for them. If they don't want to evolve their games, then why should I get excited over their new 2D Mario platformers any more? Why should I play their games when I have other options that take more risks and chances and are ultimately more fun than their 2D Mario platformers?
Somehow I am not really interested in whether Wario should return to a Mario game, as opposed to the inverse: should Mario return in a Wario game? First of all, yes, Mario does appear in a Wario game... back in Super Mario Land 3: Wario Land (he appears in the ending to reclaim the Peach statue that Wario was pursuing the entire time). Since then, Mario only appears in the WarioWare games as a technicality due to the various Microgames that are either Super Mario Bros. (9-Volt's classic microgames) or when Wario has to put a rival in. I would like to see Mario appear in either a WarioWare game as an actual appearance alongside the weird residents of Diamond City, or in Wario Land where Mario appear once again.
Thank you for reading.
Thank you for reading.
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I'm unconditionally supportive of Mario being in a Wario game. I find it weird that Marios and Warios world are so different from each other despite the characters supposed to be in the same universe. Even if Mario makes a cameo and steals Wario's treasure again, I'd be fine, but I like to see full-on rivalry (and Mario ends up winning of course, only because Wario is a selfish dick the entire time).
I can dream about Mario being in his own biker outfit, no? Maybe he even works as a co-worker for Mona Pizza and rides a neat little Sugarscoot around to deliver pizza, that really ticks Wario off.
I can dream about Mario being in his own biker outfit, no? Maybe he even works as a co-worker for Mona Pizza and rides a neat little Sugarscoot around to deliver pizza, that really ticks Wario off.