What products do you think are cash grabby?

[Xiahou Dun]

Re: Which product do you think is cash grabby?

But HOW are these games similar? You keep on saying that they're similar, and then you say "sure they have these different things" and never provide me with a definitive answer

Now I will. The only reason I can't provide a definite answer immediately because my answer is usually lengthy. Just look below.

Super Mario Galaxy 2 is guilty of all of these
-Recycled assets. They look virtually identical, even the little things like the HUD.

-Recycled ideas. FreezeFlame -> Shiverburn. Dino Piranha -> Peewee Piranha. Mega-Leg -> Digga-Leg. Honeyhive Galaxy/ Honeyclimb Galaxy -> Honeybloom Galaxy/Honeyhop Galaxy. The entirety of Stone Cyclone. Mandibug stack. Luigi's Purple Coins. The green-tile-covered planet planet in Hurry Scurry Galaxy -> the green-tile-covered planet planet in Sea Slide Galaxy. Ghostly Galaxy -> Haunty Halls Galaxy. Sea Slide Galaxy -> Starshine Beach Galaxy. Melty Molten Galaxy -> Melty Monster Galaxy. Sweet Sweet Galaxy -> Sweet Mystery Galaxy. Dusty Dune Galaxy -> Slipsand Galaxy. You can reference your first Galaxy, but don't excessively get your ideas from it. You can argue that they're going for coherent themes, but I think they stick too closely to the first game to qualify as different levels under the same theme, especially with the blatant copy paste of FreezeFlame to Shiverburn. Also, speaking of themes, one thing Galaxy 2 had a sore lack of were that only a few levels actually feel like they took place in space. This wouldn't have been a problem if Galaxy games weren't advertised and hyped as "MARIO BLASTS OFF THROUGH THE FINAL FRONTIER OF SPACE!!".

-Failure to build upon the mechanics that the first game had and even the ones this game introduced. Red Star could've seen much more use in Galaxy 2, but it's nowhere to be seen. The removal of the Ice Flower was disappointing. Boo Mushroom's appearances were disappointing. The first Galaxy game had powerup distribution problems, and the second one did absolutely nothing to improve it. Think the faux replay value the first one had and the second one had... lazily-designed Green Stars.

-Failure to improve upon the first game while tacking on gimmicks that end up bogging down the game. Think what Melty Monster could've been if the vast majority of the levels actually took place in the galaxy and not some stupid minigame area. Think how often Yoshi appears. Removal of Red Shells. Swimming controls that now restrict the amount of times you can spin underwater. Think about the story, where Rosalina, who had a fairly interesting backstory, is eschewed for... something else. The StarShip Mario thing is a mixed bag (like or dislike it), but I personally don't like it. Also, blaring comet noise once you complete the game. That's all.

-Uninspired boss fights. Find video game weak point (located at the bosses' behind), hit it. Rinse and repeat three times. I shouldn't have to explain the final fight. To be fair, Galaxy 1 doesn't a lot have great fights either (Bugaboom,
Kamella, TOPMANIAC, Baron Burr, Major Barrows, and Tarantox, uh, you suck).

-The soundtrack is disappointing. There are some nice tunes on Starship Mario, the credits, Cosmic Cove, Melty Monster, Puzzle Plank, the DiggaLegg fight, and Space Storm maybe, but the rest don't strike me as memorable or just that great. Fluffy Buff and Sky Station sound way too similar to each other and Gusty Garden. Galaxy 1 also has only select themes, but Galaxy 2 had that opportunity to actually do more with their music, and I have to say that I'm disappointed overall. Music, if not MIDI cover versions from Super Mario World, feels recycled from Galaxy 1 with the same overall themes, as if Galaxy 2 is trying to just be like Galaxy 1 rather than be its own game.

Actual good things (a few become level aspects in 3D Land/World, although not always to my liking).
-Cosmic Clones
-Beat Boxes (good, there should be more levels built around this)
-Co-Star Luma (also, good, but pretty much superseded by 3D World's game, but can work ala Murfy on Gamepad).
-Throwback and Twisty Trials were nice touches, although I'm not too fond of the level design in Twisty Trials anyway.
-Flip-swap switches. Good concept, horribly executed in multiplayer in Super Mario 3D World.
-Slimy Spring and the first level of Melty Molten were great. There was also this Space Storm level where it the music was played as if it's from a radio and it was in grayscale, if I recall correctly. Good.

I'm still not getting what you're saying, I mean if all of these things don't matter to a game to make it different, then what does? Does this mean that every 2D mario game is a rehash of the original mario game? Every 2D sonic game is a rehash of the original sonic game?

No. 2D Marios have at least graphical overhauls. I think the bare, bare minimum a game needs to be different enough is a graphical overhaul since it does go some way into distinguishing your game. But one thing: it's by no way a surefire solution because you also have to consider the context and genre of those games and how much else they actually improved. Pokemon, for instance, has always seen graphical updates, but I lambasted the series for its stagnant and convoluted mechanics, especially its battle system. The older 2D Mario games have less to work from and had limited technology, so they have more room to start establishing things and defining the emerging video game medium. And besides, the 2D Marios have introduced several things in the successive years: world maps, better level progression, established enemies, power-up reserves while also defining the platform genre. Super Mario Galaxy 2 does none of these.

Anyway, I hope you do consider my points on why I strongly dislike Galaxy 2 and why I think how it dodges criticism is unfair and, well, maddening for me. If you can disagree, go ahead, it's just my opinion anyway.

 

[Dr. Peach]

Re: Which product do you think is cash grabby?

Now I will. The only reason I can't provide a definite answer immediately because my answer is usually lengthy. Just look below.

Super Mario Galaxy 2 is guilty of all of these
-Recycled assets. They look virtually identical, even the little things like the HUD.

-Recycled ideas. FreezeFlame -> Shiverburn. Dino Piranha -> Peewee Piranha. Mega-Leg -> Digga-Leg. Honeyhive Galaxy/ Honeyclimb Galaxy -> Honeybloom Galaxy/Honeyhop Galaxy. The entirety of Stone Cyclone. Mandibug stack. Luigi's Purple Coins. The green-tile-covered planet planet in Hurry Scurry Galaxy -> the green-tile-covered planet planet in Sea Slide Galaxy. Ghostly Galaxy -> Haunty Halls Galaxy. Sea Slide Galaxy -> Starshine Beach Galaxy. Melty Molten Galaxy -> Melty Monster Galaxy. Sweet Sweet Galaxy -> Sweet Mystery Galaxy. Dusty Dune Galaxy -> Slipsand Galaxy. You can reference your first Galaxy, but don't excessively get your ideas from it. You can argue that they're going for coherent themes, but I think they stick too closely to the first game to qualify as different levels under the same theme, especially with the blatant copy paste of FreezeFlame to Shiverburn. Also, speaking of themes, one thing Galaxy 2 had a sore lack of were that only a few levels actually feel like they took place in space. This wouldn't have been a problem if Galaxy games weren't advertised and hyped as "MARIO BLASTS OFF THROUGH THE FINAL FRONTIER OF SPACE!!".

-Failure to build upon the mechanics that the first game had and even the ones this game introduced. Red Star could've seen much more use in Galaxy 2, but it's nowhere to be seen. The removal of the Ice Flower was disappointing. Boo Mushroom's appearances were disappointing. The first Galaxy game had powerup distribution problems, and the second one did absolutely nothing to improve it. Think the faux replay value the first one had and the second one had... lazily-designed Green Stars.

-Failure to improve upon the first game while tacking on gimmicks that end up bogging down the game. Think what Melty Monster could've been if the vast majority of the levels actually took place in the galaxy and not some stupid minigame area. Think how often Yoshi appears. Removal of Red Shells. Swimming controls that now restrict the amount of times you can spin underwater. Think about the story, where Rosalina, who had a fairly interesting backstory, is eschewed for... something else. The StarShip Mario thing is a mixed bag (like or dislike it), but I personally don't like it. Also, blaring comet noise once you complete the game. That's all.

-Uninspired boss fights. Find video game weak point (located at the bosses' behind), hit it. Rinse and repeat three times. I shouldn't have to explain the final fight. To be fair, Galaxy 1 doesn't a lot have great fights either (Bugaboom,
Kamella, TOPMANIAC, Baron Burr, Major Barrows, and Tarantox, uh, you suck).

-The soundtrack is disappointing. There are some nice tunes on Starship Mario, the credits, Cosmic Cove, Melty Monster, Puzzle Plank, the DiggaLegg fight, and Space Storm maybe, but the rest don't strike me as memorable or just that great. Fluffy Buff and Sky Station sound way too similar to each other and Gusty Garden. Galaxy 1 also has only select themes, but Galaxy 2 had that opportunity to actually do more with their music, and I have to say that I'm disappointed overall. Music, if not MIDI cover versions from Super Mario World, feels recycled from Galaxy 1 with the same overall themes, as if Galaxy 2 is trying to just be like Galaxy 1 rather than be its own game.

Actual good things (a few become level aspects in 3D Land/World, although not always to my liking).
-Cosmic Clones
-Beat Boxes (good, there should be more levels built around this)
-Co-Star Luma (also, good, but pretty much superseded by 3D World's game, but can work ala Murfy on Gamepad).
-Throwback and Twisty Trials were nice touches, although I'm not too fond of the level design in Twisty Trials anyway.
-Flip-swap switches. Good concept, horribly executed in multiplayer in Super Mario 3D World.
-Slimy Spring and the first level of Melty Molten were great. There was also this Space Storm level where it the music was played as if it's from a radio and it was in grayscale, if I recall correctly. Good.

I'm still not getting what you're saying, I mean if all of these things don't matter to a game to make it different, then what does? Does this mean that every 2D mario game is a rehash of the original mario game? Every 2D sonic game is a rehash of the original sonic game?

No. 2D Marios have at least graphical overhauls. I think the bare, bare minimum a game needs to be different enough is a graphical overhaul since it does go some way into distinguishing your game. But one thing: it's by no way a surefire solution because you also have to consider the context and genre of those games and how much else they actually improved. Pokemon, for instance, has always seen graphical updates, but I lambasted the series for its stagnant and convoluted mechanics, especially its battle system. The older 2D Mario games have less to work from and had limited technology, so they have more room to start establishing things and defining the emerging video game medium. And besides, the 2D Marios have introduced several things in the successive years: world maps, better level progression, established enemies, power-up reserves while also defining the platform genre. Super Mario Galaxy 2 does none of these.

Anyway, I hope you do consider my points on why I strongly dislike Galaxy 2 and why I think how it dodges criticism is unfair and, well, maddening for me. If you can disagree, go ahead, it's just my opinion anyway.

This.

You might as well ask if space shooters are rehashes and are worse.

 

[Xiahou Dun]

Re: Which product do you think is cash grabby?

I thought you disagreed with me, though. I mean, you said that Galaxy 2 is a magnum opus or something. I'm, uh, lambasting it.

 

[Dr. Peach]

Re: Which product do you think is cash grabby?

I thought you disagreed with me, though. I mean, you said that Galaxy 2 is a magnum opus or something. I'm, uh, lambasting it.

I did said that it was a magnum opus. I'm just asking if space shooters like Gradius and and it's many followups are unoriginal and are worse than Galaxy 2. I know that space shooters do tend to get unoriginal.

Y'know stuff like this:

I know that Gradius is what every other space shooter imitates, even those on the biggest barf fest ever in existence and that is none other than Action 52 for the NES and Sega Genesis.

 

[DragonFreak]

Re: Which product do you think is cash grabby?

*complete entire annihilation on why SMG2 is terrible*

*slow claps*

I'm saving this post for when this conversation comes up again.

 

[Shyghoul]

Re: Which product do you think is cash grabby?

I played Galaxy 2 first so I basically feel more-or-less the same way about 1 as LGM does about 2

which is kind of off but w/e I guess lol

 

[Specific Neptune]

Re: Which product do you think is cash grabby?

the whole thing

i shall say to you bravo, this is what i was expecting as a response

i guess in my own personal opinion, none of that really bothers me as much as it does you

it doesn't change my opinion, but it makes one hell of a compelling argument

anyways, my argument has now been annihilated, so i shall succeed defeat, and now i am off to the rainbow room to smoke some cigars by the fire