SSB, SSBM, or SSBB?
- Thread starter Lord Bowser
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ok watBaby Luigi said:
and also, next time your sister gets on, kindly ask her to rant about brawl on this thread please
Mijzelffan
Looking forward to a new Mario Kart!
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- Mijzelffan
I want to like brawl better than melee, but for some reason even now I just enjoy playing melee better. And I'm not even competitive.
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The reason I hate Brawl is that Sakurai doesn't like the idea of sequels. I know he developed Melee, and it improved on Super Smash Bros. For some reason, he didn't like how Melee surprisingly attracted a competitive community, so he decided to overhaul the mechanics. The game still plays the same, but it sure doesn't feel the same anymore. I'm not a competitive player, but even I notice the changes and continue scoffing at it, wondering why Sakurai had to adulterate Melee's physics in the first place. This is ranting on a competitive perspective; I'll go rant on a casual one, too. Yes, I know.
Unnecessary Changes
First, hitstun. This is the character being unable to attack after she takes damage. Super Smash Bros. had a ton of it, which allowed for serious combos. Melee reduced it a bit, but it still allowed for great combos to work. In Brawl, this hitstun is nonexistent. I don't understand why it is reduced further. It's a pointless "tweak" that Brawl received, and all it does is to contribute to Brawl's unappealing competitive environment. It also encourages a defensive approach to fighting, and who likes watching characters poke each other? People that don't care too much about physics like, but again, why alter something that didn't break, thus losing your more competitive crowd? Isn't the point to appeal as most gamers as you can instead of catering to one audience?
Second, character balance. Some characters received needed buffs, especially Kirby, Ness, and Zelda, while a few others got nerfs, including Fox, Marth, and Sheik. These help balance the game a bit, but there are some unneeded nerfs. Take Ganondorf, for instance. He didn't even break the game in Melee, so why did Brawl suddenly made Ganondorf even slower? Did they think he was way too blazing fast in Melee? And what about Link? Was he way too strong in Melee, so he needed a nerf on his B-up and other attacks? Samus certainly needed much less knock-back because her attacks cause too much in the first place. And Mario's B-down is too strong and his forward smash has a way too big hitbox. Let's change it to a nearly useless attack while giving his forward smash a smaller sweetspot. Yeah, Mario was way too overpowered in Melee, so let's make him suck. Same goes for Link, Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, and Jigglypuff.
Why are there unnecessary nerfs? Could they have instead attempted to patch bad Melee characters while toning down great Melee characters? Why make bad characters worse? As a result, you get a horribly imbalanced game.
More invincibility frames. Again, to encourage a more defensive game, more invincibility frames are added to air dodging and rolling to the point where it's easily spammable. Again, why was the change added? Tell me.
Unnecessary Additions
Tripping. That's it.
Why add a mechanic that serves no purpose other than factoring more luck than necessary? You should win in Brawl because nothing is out of your control. Tripping just punishes you for running. Why? Just why? I'm not talking about attacks causing people to trip; I'm fine with that. What I hate is the stupid random punishment that can potentially alter the course of a match. That's bad. What's the reasoning behind adding tripping? Whoever thought tripping was a good idea to include in the game should be fed to Petey Piranha, because tripping is perhaps the most unpopular change Brawl has received.
Final Smashes are a poor attempt to appeal to the more casual audience. They are horribly imbalanced, and some of them are totally out of place with the character. Luigi, for instance, gets a really weird and out-of-character dance thing. Why do they emphasize on Luigi's sad demeanor? Luigi isn't even sad in the first place for crying out loud in the Mario games, so why does Luigi act and sound so differently in Brawl? Luigi could use actual attacks from the Mario games, but no, Brawl had to give Luigi this stupid final smash.
Mario's final smash, although it's nice to look at, is also totally random. Again, he has so many "final smash-like" attacks from his games. The Mega Mushroom. The Star man. Plethora of powerups. Mario has so many options, but Brawl decides to give him a totally random attack.
Speaking of which, I can go on and rant all day about how many Mario characters act very unlike to their main-game counterparts, but that's another post.
Unnecessary Removals
Why remove L-canceling instead of simply making it automatic? Link, for instance; is his down-air too overpowered with L-canceling? Removing L-canceling is stupid. I didn't like spamming L after a mid-air attack reaches the ground, but the point is to help your character recover faster after he lands in the ground. It certainly helps for Link, but it also also helps for characters that rely on their aerial attacks for main damage. Removing L-canceling, as a result, limits your options from approaching your opponents. In Melee, you can short hop, fast fall, then L-cancel. This SHFFL technique helps characters combo with aerial attacks. Without L-canceling, this technique is gone. L-canceling didn't hurt the more casual gamers from enjoying Melee, so what gives?
Okay, later, I'm going to rant about the game on things other than gameplay mechanics.
Unnecessary Changes
First, hitstun. This is the character being unable to attack after she takes damage. Super Smash Bros. had a ton of it, which allowed for serious combos. Melee reduced it a bit, but it still allowed for great combos to work. In Brawl, this hitstun is nonexistent. I don't understand why it is reduced further. It's a pointless "tweak" that Brawl received, and all it does is to contribute to Brawl's unappealing competitive environment. It also encourages a defensive approach to fighting, and who likes watching characters poke each other? People that don't care too much about physics like, but again, why alter something that didn't break, thus losing your more competitive crowd? Isn't the point to appeal as most gamers as you can instead of catering to one audience?
Second, character balance. Some characters received needed buffs, especially Kirby, Ness, and Zelda, while a few others got nerfs, including Fox, Marth, and Sheik. These help balance the game a bit, but there are some unneeded nerfs. Take Ganondorf, for instance. He didn't even break the game in Melee, so why did Brawl suddenly made Ganondorf even slower? Did they think he was way too blazing fast in Melee? And what about Link? Was he way too strong in Melee, so he needed a nerf on his B-up and other attacks? Samus certainly needed much less knock-back because her attacks cause too much in the first place. And Mario's B-down is too strong and his forward smash has a way too big hitbox. Let's change it to a nearly useless attack while giving his forward smash a smaller sweetspot. Yeah, Mario was way too overpowered in Melee, so let's make him suck. Same goes for Link, Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, and Jigglypuff.
Why are there unnecessary nerfs? Could they have instead attempted to patch bad Melee characters while toning down great Melee characters? Why make bad characters worse? As a result, you get a horribly imbalanced game.
More invincibility frames. Again, to encourage a more defensive game, more invincibility frames are added to air dodging and rolling to the point where it's easily spammable. Again, why was the change added? Tell me.
Unnecessary Additions
Tripping. That's it.
Why add a mechanic that serves no purpose other than factoring more luck than necessary? You should win in Brawl because nothing is out of your control. Tripping just punishes you for running. Why? Just why? I'm not talking about attacks causing people to trip; I'm fine with that. What I hate is the stupid random punishment that can potentially alter the course of a match. That's bad. What's the reasoning behind adding tripping? Whoever thought tripping was a good idea to include in the game should be fed to Petey Piranha, because tripping is perhaps the most unpopular change Brawl has received.
Final Smashes are a poor attempt to appeal to the more casual audience. They are horribly imbalanced, and some of them are totally out of place with the character. Luigi, for instance, gets a really weird and out-of-character dance thing. Why do they emphasize on Luigi's sad demeanor? Luigi isn't even sad in the first place for crying out loud in the Mario games, so why does Luigi act and sound so differently in Brawl? Luigi could use actual attacks from the Mario games, but no, Brawl had to give Luigi this stupid final smash.
Mario's final smash, although it's nice to look at, is also totally random. Again, he has so many "final smash-like" attacks from his games. The Mega Mushroom. The Star man. Plethora of powerups. Mario has so many options, but Brawl decides to give him a totally random attack.
Speaking of which, I can go on and rant all day about how many Mario characters act very unlike to their main-game counterparts, but that's another post.
Unnecessary Removals
Why remove L-canceling instead of simply making it automatic? Link, for instance; is his down-air too overpowered with L-canceling? Removing L-canceling is stupid. I didn't like spamming L after a mid-air attack reaches the ground, but the point is to help your character recover faster after he lands in the ground. It certainly helps for Link, but it also also helps for characters that rely on their aerial attacks for main damage. Removing L-canceling, as a result, limits your options from approaching your opponents. In Melee, you can short hop, fast fall, then L-cancel. This SHFFL technique helps characters combo with aerial attacks. Without L-canceling, this technique is gone. L-canceling didn't hurt the more casual gamers from enjoying Melee, so what gives?
Okay, later, I'm going to rant about the game on things other than gameplay mechanics.
SonicMario
Star Spirit
I can give on Tripping. But I don't find Mario and Luigi's Final Smashes that weird. Mario's Final Smash is pure, unadulterated awesome in my honest opinion. And while I suppose the trophy description makes Luigi's Negative Zone a bit odd in context I find it to be quite a unique Final Smash gives Luigi quite an advantage. Especially on Small Stages. Final Smashes are supposed to give the character using it an edge.
And it's not even put alone to Mario and Luigi anyway. I mean Peach has never been able to make Peaches out of nowhere while making everyone sleep. Or Yoshi doesn't sprout Wings and able to breath fire at will (Though I suppose technically if you got Winged Yoshi and then swallowed a fire ball in Super Mario World it may work). I don't think it's entirely a big deal that the Final Smashes aren't all based on something from their games. Considering SSB's made stuff up from the very beginning (Captain Falcon's moveset in SSB64) I think there's room for some leniency on this.
And it's not even put alone to Mario and Luigi anyway. I mean Peach has never been able to make Peaches out of nowhere while making everyone sleep. Or Yoshi doesn't sprout Wings and able to breath fire at will (Though I suppose technically if you got Winged Yoshi and then swallowed a fire ball in Super Mario World it may work). I don't think it's entirely a big deal that the Final Smashes aren't all based on something from their games. Considering SSB's made stuff up from the very beginning (Captain Falcon's moveset in SSB64) I think there's room for some leniency on this.
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I think Luigi is better suited with a Final Smash coming from an original game. See, I don't mind original movesets. In Captain Falcon's case, Captain Falcon doesn't have much options from his games to work with, so they gave him unique moves. The main problem I have with Mario and Luigi (Mario's Final Smash looks cool; I said that) is that while Captain Falcon have barely anything to work with, Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Bowser have a huge history of games that have moves suitable for Final Smashes.
Super Smash Bros. is meant to represent a lot of well-series as best as it can, and if characters don't get their moves from their games, then how can they get represented well? The Mario series is poorly represented in nearly every aspect in Brawl (the characters, their voices, their stages, their personality, and their moves), which is very disappointing to me, especially since the Mario series is Nintendo's flagship series. How can they butcher the series so thoroughly like that? I know, in quantity, the Mario series gets a lot of stuff, but all of that is poorly done.
Super Smash Bros. is meant to represent a lot of well-series as best as it can, and if characters don't get their moves from their games, then how can they get represented well? The Mario series is poorly represented in nearly every aspect in Brawl (the characters, their voices, their stages, their personality, and their moves), which is very disappointing to me, especially since the Mario series is Nintendo's flagship series. How can they butcher the series so thoroughly like that? I know, in quantity, the Mario series gets a lot of stuff, but all of that is poorly done.
yoshi123
~Yo-YO, let's GO! PSI Prodigy!~
I agree with you some things on the character balance and completely on the RANDOM tripping (which is apparently 1%, or 2% for Luigi but if you trip that often from 1% I don't want to play with 3% LOL)
TBH I can't really say Marth got nerfed nor can I really say Zelda got buffed either.
Mario's Down-B I agree it shouldn't have been replaced; FLUDD is way too situational and Mario Tornado was a great recovery tool.
Though Forward Smash idk how it's bad, and the sourspot actually gives more knockback. Its range is also pretty dang good. As shown here, thanks to Stutter-Stepping.
L Canceling I didn't like pressing the shield button everytime you landed with an aerial but I believe auto canceling substitutes that lol
Though I will acknowledge Melee did some key things better than Brawl.
TBH I can't really say Marth got nerfed nor can I really say Zelda got buffed either.
Mario's Down-B I agree it shouldn't have been replaced; FLUDD is way too situational and Mario Tornado was a great recovery tool.
Though Forward Smash idk how it's bad, and the sourspot actually gives more knockback. Its range is also pretty dang good. As shown here, thanks to Stutter-Stepping.
L Canceling I didn't like pressing the shield button everytime you landed with an aerial but I believe auto canceling substitutes that lol
Though I will acknowledge Melee did some key things better than Brawl.
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For example, wavedashing.Timmy said:
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Timmy said:
Hm, Marth is not at the tippy-top tier position, but his B> is easier to execute, but doesn't give him a lot of momentum as in Melee. He also lost combo ability as well.
Oh, Zelda DID get buffed, but the environment around her changed as well. Zelda's attacks are stronger and faster with better connection. Her sourspots are weaker while her sweetspots are stronger. Despite this, she is the second-lowest character in the tier in Super Smash Bros. Brawl.
I preferred Mario's forward smash in Melee because it connects better.
As for L-canceling, it should be automatic instead of being removed all together, honestly. It hurt the competitive play there.
SonicMario
Star Spirit
Maybe I don't pay enough attention. But I don't see entirely a big problem with how the Mario series is represented in Brawl. And even if I did find an issue. Even if it's the flagship franchise, it's not a big enough deal as to say they messed up. As most of the other series have their fair share. Even the 3rd parties get a good representation with one character for Metal Gear and Sonic, one stage, and some Trophies and Stickers.
Thinking about it, Brawl made sure it didn't have too much Mario representation so it could leave room for the other series. Mario still has a huge chunk. What with 4 characters using the Mushroom Symbol, plus the Mini series that is DK, Yoshi, and Wario that fall under it. Which might be part of why I don't think it's too bad because I include those too. I think Wario, Yoshi, and DK were wonderfully represented. Maybe some things on Mario and Luigi were weird. But I do think they did well for the subseries if nothing else.
While I myself don't think it's a big deal in the overall sense, as Brawl is not only my favorite SSB game but my favorite game period. I figure it's just something to hope SSB4 improves on. If you look at the SSB games they're kind of celebrations of the previous console. Melee had alot of stuff grabbed from Nintendo 64. Just look at all the Super Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time representation. (You could also argue SSB64 celebrated some things of the SNES even if it was also heavily current console based. Ness was a character from a then not very known RPG that probably wouldn't have as much exposure as it does now without SSB) Brawl was the same for the Gamecube, where there weren't too many new Mario games other then Super Mario Sunshine. Which is probably why Delfino Plaza is a stage and Mario got Fludd in Brawl. SSB4 might be similarly done with the Wii where that means we'll definitely see something Super Mario Galaxy related. And of course SSB4 will have Link and Zelda look how they did in Skyward Sword. But because it's focused on the past console there wasn't much to add for Mario because other then Sunshine the only other games were Luigi's Mansion (Which also got good representation with that stage) and all those sports titles, Mario Kart (Of which also got a stage), and Mario Party. With the Galaxy games and I'd say the New Super Mario Bros. games that did capture Mario's personality and overall spirit could very well be done better the next time around.
I don't think Brawl entirely got everything messed up as you said but I guess I could see that Melee had a bit more oomph (Though that wasn't perfect either, Luigi sounded like a Higher pitched Mario in both SSB64 and Melee. Luigi actually got his real voice for Brawl.) I just don't think it's a big issue still.
Thinking about it, Brawl made sure it didn't have too much Mario representation so it could leave room for the other series. Mario still has a huge chunk. What with 4 characters using the Mushroom Symbol, plus the Mini series that is DK, Yoshi, and Wario that fall under it. Which might be part of why I don't think it's too bad because I include those too. I think Wario, Yoshi, and DK were wonderfully represented. Maybe some things on Mario and Luigi were weird. But I do think they did well for the subseries if nothing else.
While I myself don't think it's a big deal in the overall sense, as Brawl is not only my favorite SSB game but my favorite game period. I figure it's just something to hope SSB4 improves on. If you look at the SSB games they're kind of celebrations of the previous console. Melee had alot of stuff grabbed from Nintendo 64. Just look at all the Super Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time representation. (You could also argue SSB64 celebrated some things of the SNES even if it was also heavily current console based. Ness was a character from a then not very known RPG that probably wouldn't have as much exposure as it does now without SSB) Brawl was the same for the Gamecube, where there weren't too many new Mario games other then Super Mario Sunshine. Which is probably why Delfino Plaza is a stage and Mario got Fludd in Brawl. SSB4 might be similarly done with the Wii where that means we'll definitely see something Super Mario Galaxy related. And of course SSB4 will have Link and Zelda look how they did in Skyward Sword. But because it's focused on the past console there wasn't much to add for Mario because other then Sunshine the only other games were Luigi's Mansion (Which also got good representation with that stage) and all those sports titles, Mario Kart (Of which also got a stage), and Mario Party. With the Galaxy games and I'd say the New Super Mario Bros. games that did capture Mario's personality and overall spirit could very well be done better the next time around.
I don't think Brawl entirely got everything messed up as you said but I guess I could see that Melee had a bit more oomph (Though that wasn't perfect either, Luigi sounded like a Higher pitched Mario in both SSB64 and Melee. Luigi actually got his real voice for Brawl.) I just don't think it's a big issue still.
yoshi123
~Yo-YO, let's GO! PSI Prodigy!~
It's really debatable if Marth got buff or nerfed lol
While he lost range and combo ability, his tippers are much stronger, he can escape "combos" and his Down/Up-B are improved as well. :p
However, I will say that he is the most balanced character, along with Diddy.
Also, how can L Canceling be automatic? Would you still suffer your aerial's normal landing lag? =P
While he lost range and combo ability, his tippers are much stronger, he can escape "combos" and his Down/Up-B are improved as well. :p
However, I will say that he is the most balanced character, along with Diddy.
Also, how can L Canceling be automatic? Would you still suffer your aerial's normal landing lag? =P
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Brawl has serious issues with representing the Mario series properly. They've tinkered with the source material. Mario in Brawl is NOT true to the source material. Tinkering with the source is one of the worst thing you can do when you're making a crossover representing Nintendo's best, famous, and even the obscure.
Characters
My issue with Brawl representing the Mario series is not how thorough or much the representation is. My issue is the depiction of such characters from the series. Take Mario, for instance. In his games, he is usually cheerful and excited. In Brawl, he suddenly becomes solemn. The colors don't help either, since it's gritty, realistic, and dull, which is something you don't see very often in Nintendo games. He sounds a lot duller, even, and his eyes is in a constant scowl. You can tell the changes Mario have gone through by playing Melee and then Brawl. I don't mind the details on the overalls; it's a nice touch, but I don't get it why Mario is so not like himself. Look at Kirby: he retains his childlike personality. Link pretty much sounds like himself. Pikachu acts like Pikachu.
Brawl has given Luigi a pale look and has even made a dark explanation for it. I don't understand why Brawl had to exaggerate Luigi's "second banana" so much. Luigi sounds and looks so sad in Brawl. In Mario Kart Wii, that's hardly the case. Even then, though, Luigi smiles more and he retains his cowardly, awkward personality from the games. We need that for Mario. I do appreciate actual Luigi noises, but it needs to sound more upbeat.
Bowser sounds nothing like the one we like. He sounds like a movie monster. At least in Melee, he uses voice clips from his games. Brawl just felt like to give Bowser a "realistic" monster voice when his Kenneth James voice is more suitable. I don't like Bowser's voice in Brawl, and it's disappointing that he didn't get his familiar voice.
Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong have similar problems with Bowser. While Melee has given Donkey Kong some clips from previous games, Brawl again decides to make Donkey Kong sound like a lion. Again, why couldn't they give those two guys the voices from their games? Because it's too cartoony? Unrealistic? You have tripping. Star KOs. People exploding in colors when they die. Hammers. Double jumping. Pink things. What is Brawl aiming for? A realistic game or a cartoony game? It looks like Brawl is in between, but shouldn't they be going for a cartoony, fantasy feel, since it is Nintendo, after all? Brawl is so messed up between the two.
Next, we have Wario, who could've done better if he was represented as a brute, not a weirdo. Wario Land has given Wario a lot of moves to work with, so why did Brawl decide to make him act as if he is from WarioWare, a minigame compilation? To emphasize his weirdness? Well, Wario is weird to begin with, but he's also a brute. Why not make him like a brute, since many people see him like that?
Yoshi and Peach behave pretty much as those from the games, but Yoshi recycled his voice clips. Peach has fitting voice clips as well. Okay, why not give Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Donkey Kong, and Diddy Kong fitting voices as well, just as most characters in this game?
Stages.
Brawl does a really bad job at making good stages. Either they actually represent the game well, but **** it up with overpowered stage hazards (like Port Town Aero Drive), or they make a really generic and bland stage with the series name slapped on it (like Castle Siege). Or they pull a Mushroomy Kingdom by making the stage represent the series, but adulterate it to the point where it doesn't match the series. There are a select few that don't follow that, but there are 9 stages I hate to play on and there are even more stages that needs work, and that's a lot of stages.
Apparently, Brawl decides to take on a serious perspective on the Mario series in general. Obviously, Mario has a lot of depressing games, so Brawl represents the tear-invoking Mario series to the fullest by introducing a post-apocalyptic Mushroom Kingdom. The setup is familiar, but everything else familiar about the Mario games are absent Why did they think it's a great idea to put a desolate wasteland that's supposed to represent the Mario series? Mario stages should be lush, vivid, and cartoony, just as in the Mario games!
Rumble Falls sucks in every way possible. Not to mention, you can't even tell it's a Donkey Kong stage; it feels like some random jungle stage with DK's name slapped on it. There's nothing from the Donkey Kong games that distinguish it; Super Smash Bros. had the Neckies and Super Smash Bros. Melee had Klaptraps and Cranky Kong. Rumble Falls suffers from poor stage design that makes it very painful to play in. The thorns and speed-ups serve no purpose other than to make me hate this stage. The thorns are ridiculously overpowered, and if you combine that with the fast speed, you can jump and jump and die without knowing what hit you. When Melee makes automatically scrolling stages, at least they don't kill you with cheap hazards, and the pace is mostly leisurely.
Mario Kart actually did a good job at being represented, but the stage hazards, man! Tone it down! Also, make other characters race with Shy Guy!
75m is taken exactly from the game, but why didn't they choose the more iconic 25m? The representation itself is not bad at all; after all, it's no Mushroomy Kingdom. The major problem: the stage hazards! They're so awful, since they had stupidly high knockback and damage. Stage hazards make this stage a very despised stage by gamers alike. Not to mention, the whole thing is poorly designed, especially with this big platform on top that you can't pass down, but jump through! This encourages a lot of camping, and playing a game where camping reigns is not fun. Plus, the music options for this stage sucks.
Mario Bros. suffers the same as 75m. At least the music is better.
The real downer is that the stages from the previous games don't have crap like 75m or Mushroomy Kingdom.
Yoshi's Island does its job fairly well by adding that hand-drawn art style and incorporating many elements from the Yoshi games, including flowers, Fly Guys, Chain Chomps, and Nep-enut-like ghosts. Plus, the music is done well for the most part.
WarioWare also does a good job at representing WarioWare. The "rewards" for winning a microgame is skewed and unfair, though, making this stage painful to play on. Plus, the stage hazards can be cheap.
The worst thing is that Mario-related stages aren't the only ones to get bad designs. Halberd, Castle Siege, Hanenbow, Green Hill Zone, New Pork City, Norfair, Spear Pillar, Pokemon Stadium 2, Port Town Aero Drive and Skyworld all suffer from either generic, unrepresentative, bad stage hazard, or bad stage design in general. That's a lot of stages, especially when you compare Melee's and Super Smash Bros.'s stages.
So, is it really worth nitpicking about? Yes. Brawl is a Nintendo crossover, and the first thing they need to do right is to represent their series as best as they can. That's part of the point of a crossover, isn't it? You need to make the characters, stages, and music true to their source material, which is not quite directly porting models and voices from their games.
When I see my favorite series gets so thoroughly desecrated from the original like Brawl, I get mad. Brawl has gotten so much effort poured into this, and they still managed to make a half-assed representation of this series. Brawl has given the Mario series the finger and spat on its face. Brawl has gone through incredible efforts to horribly disfigure the representation of the Mario series, and they've succeeded.
And, so, that's another major reason I hate Brawl so much.
Characters
My issue with Brawl representing the Mario series is not how thorough or much the representation is. My issue is the depiction of such characters from the series. Take Mario, for instance. In his games, he is usually cheerful and excited. In Brawl, he suddenly becomes solemn. The colors don't help either, since it's gritty, realistic, and dull, which is something you don't see very often in Nintendo games. He sounds a lot duller, even, and his eyes is in a constant scowl. You can tell the changes Mario have gone through by playing Melee and then Brawl. I don't mind the details on the overalls; it's a nice touch, but I don't get it why Mario is so not like himself. Look at Kirby: he retains his childlike personality. Link pretty much sounds like himself. Pikachu acts like Pikachu.
Brawl has given Luigi a pale look and has even made a dark explanation for it. I don't understand why Brawl had to exaggerate Luigi's "second banana" so much. Luigi sounds and looks so sad in Brawl. In Mario Kart Wii, that's hardly the case. Even then, though, Luigi smiles more and he retains his cowardly, awkward personality from the games. We need that for Mario. I do appreciate actual Luigi noises, but it needs to sound more upbeat.
Bowser sounds nothing like the one we like. He sounds like a movie monster. At least in Melee, he uses voice clips from his games. Brawl just felt like to give Bowser a "realistic" monster voice when his Kenneth James voice is more suitable. I don't like Bowser's voice in Brawl, and it's disappointing that he didn't get his familiar voice.
Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong have similar problems with Bowser. While Melee has given Donkey Kong some clips from previous games, Brawl again decides to make Donkey Kong sound like a lion. Again, why couldn't they give those two guys the voices from their games? Because it's too cartoony? Unrealistic? You have tripping. Star KOs. People exploding in colors when they die. Hammers. Double jumping. Pink things. What is Brawl aiming for? A realistic game or a cartoony game? It looks like Brawl is in between, but shouldn't they be going for a cartoony, fantasy feel, since it is Nintendo, after all? Brawl is so messed up between the two.
Next, we have Wario, who could've done better if he was represented as a brute, not a weirdo. Wario Land has given Wario a lot of moves to work with, so why did Brawl decide to make him act as if he is from WarioWare, a minigame compilation? To emphasize his weirdness? Well, Wario is weird to begin with, but he's also a brute. Why not make him like a brute, since many people see him like that?
Yoshi and Peach behave pretty much as those from the games, but Yoshi recycled his voice clips. Peach has fitting voice clips as well. Okay, why not give Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Donkey Kong, and Diddy Kong fitting voices as well, just as most characters in this game?
Stages.
Brawl does a really bad job at making good stages. Either they actually represent the game well, but **** it up with overpowered stage hazards (like Port Town Aero Drive), or they make a really generic and bland stage with the series name slapped on it (like Castle Siege). Or they pull a Mushroomy Kingdom by making the stage represent the series, but adulterate it to the point where it doesn't match the series. There are a select few that don't follow that, but there are 9 stages I hate to play on and there are even more stages that needs work, and that's a lot of stages.
Apparently, Brawl decides to take on a serious perspective on the Mario series in general. Obviously, Mario has a lot of depressing games, so Brawl represents the tear-invoking Mario series to the fullest by introducing a post-apocalyptic Mushroom Kingdom. The setup is familiar, but everything else familiar about the Mario games are absent Why did they think it's a great idea to put a desolate wasteland that's supposed to represent the Mario series? Mario stages should be lush, vivid, and cartoony, just as in the Mario games!
Rumble Falls sucks in every way possible. Not to mention, you can't even tell it's a Donkey Kong stage; it feels like some random jungle stage with DK's name slapped on it. There's nothing from the Donkey Kong games that distinguish it; Super Smash Bros. had the Neckies and Super Smash Bros. Melee had Klaptraps and Cranky Kong. Rumble Falls suffers from poor stage design that makes it very painful to play in. The thorns and speed-ups serve no purpose other than to make me hate this stage. The thorns are ridiculously overpowered, and if you combine that with the fast speed, you can jump and jump and die without knowing what hit you. When Melee makes automatically scrolling stages, at least they don't kill you with cheap hazards, and the pace is mostly leisurely.
Mario Kart actually did a good job at being represented, but the stage hazards, man! Tone it down! Also, make other characters race with Shy Guy!
75m is taken exactly from the game, but why didn't they choose the more iconic 25m? The representation itself is not bad at all; after all, it's no Mushroomy Kingdom. The major problem: the stage hazards! They're so awful, since they had stupidly high knockback and damage. Stage hazards make this stage a very despised stage by gamers alike. Not to mention, the whole thing is poorly designed, especially with this big platform on top that you can't pass down, but jump through! This encourages a lot of camping, and playing a game where camping reigns is not fun. Plus, the music options for this stage sucks.
Mario Bros. suffers the same as 75m. At least the music is better.
The real downer is that the stages from the previous games don't have crap like 75m or Mushroomy Kingdom.
Yoshi's Island does its job fairly well by adding that hand-drawn art style and incorporating many elements from the Yoshi games, including flowers, Fly Guys, Chain Chomps, and Nep-enut-like ghosts. Plus, the music is done well for the most part.
WarioWare also does a good job at representing WarioWare. The "rewards" for winning a microgame is skewed and unfair, though, making this stage painful to play on. Plus, the stage hazards can be cheap.
The worst thing is that Mario-related stages aren't the only ones to get bad designs. Halberd, Castle Siege, Hanenbow, Green Hill Zone, New Pork City, Norfair, Spear Pillar, Pokemon Stadium 2, Port Town Aero Drive and Skyworld all suffer from either generic, unrepresentative, bad stage hazard, or bad stage design in general. That's a lot of stages, especially when you compare Melee's and Super Smash Bros.'s stages.
So, is it really worth nitpicking about? Yes. Brawl is a Nintendo crossover, and the first thing they need to do right is to represent their series as best as they can. That's part of the point of a crossover, isn't it? You need to make the characters, stages, and music true to their source material, which is not quite directly porting models and voices from their games.
When I see my favorite series gets so thoroughly desecrated from the original like Brawl, I get mad. Brawl has gotten so much effort poured into this, and they still managed to make a half-assed representation of this series. Brawl has given the Mario series the finger and spat on its face. Brawl has gone through incredible efforts to horribly disfigure the representation of the Mario series, and they've succeeded.
And, so, that's another major reason I hate Brawl so much.
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I completely agree. Melee's Flat Zone had weapons that were somewhat overpowered, but Flat Zone 2 is worse; the lion chairs, the customers kicking you, etc. At least Melee's scrolls and zooms in and out, and it's weapons can be easily avoided and are (usually) not one-hit KO's.La Marionette said:
yoshi123
~Yo-YO, let's GO! PSI Prodigy!~
I personally didn't mind the normal stages that much but my god some of them need major improvements. I hate stages where it's more of the hazard than the brawlers. Port Town Aero Dive and Mario Kart are perfect examples of this.
Then stages that are TOO BIG and just make the match drag on... Oh god. New Pork City, 75m are horrible. Temple is actually playable though lol
I REALLY hate stages with walk-offs since it's basically "get grabbed, and die!"
I kind of agree with the characters being rather out of place but it doesn't really affect me in anyway. =P
Then stages that are TOO BIG and just make the match drag on... Oh god. New Pork City, 75m are horrible. Temple is actually playable though lol
I REALLY hate stages with walk-offs since it's basically "get grabbed, and die!"
I kind of agree with the characters being rather out of place but it doesn't really affect me in anyway. =P
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Mr. Game & Watch said:
Melee Flat Zone is one of the more gimmicky stages, but the stage hazards are pretty fun to play in and easy to avoid. Not to mention, they only hurt you. In Flat Zone 2, the Fire Stage isn't too bad, and it's the best of the four. The Lion Tamer stage is atrocious, though, because there is way too much knockback there. Oh my lord. The gasoline one is also stupid. Finally, the chef one isn't too bad, and I like killing the chef.
Timmy said:
The difference between Temple and New Pork City is that Temple has a coherent design while New Pork City is just random, badly placed platforms that are spaced out. Not to mention, there's a lot of space on the top. Temple is a Melee stage, anyway.
The original's low-key and minimalist presentation appeals more to me, and I felt it had the more cohesive (?) stage & item collection. With the sequels, I ended up playing on the same few stages and turning off most items, something I never felt like doing in the first.
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Anser said:
The structure design is similar, but while Temple happens to hold to a more coherent design. New Pork City attempted to replicate the Temple (I like the Temple, and perhaps a lot of people did), but the difference between the two is how the platforms are set up, which is why people liked Temple, but hated New Pork City. The reason Temple has a much better design is that it didn't feel like a smattering of platforms. New Pork City feels and looks random and messed up. Plus, Temple didn't have this huge space while New Porky City had a lot of empty space.
Glowsquid said:
I'm not sure how the stages and items are more coherent, though. The Heart Container, the Maxim Tomato, the Ray Gun, and the Fire Flower are pretty cheap items, but they're cheap in a good way. :P Super Smash Bros. has not a lot of gimmicky stages (side-scrollers, Brinstar Depths) compared to Melee, though, so maybe that's why you prefer the stages in that game.
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Oh, that's true. Every time I play Super Smash Bros., I usually play each stage once. The items are bearable, but I haven't gotten around unlocking the Item Switch feature yet (I got this game for the Virtual Console because my old N64 has bad wires), so I'm going to turn Bob-ombs only. Even then, I use Bob-ombs and Motion Sensor Bombs just because I like them more than the rest, not because I don't like the other items.
SonicMario
Star Spirit
La Marionette said:
There's probably just alot that we're just going to have to agree to disagree about but anyway:
I think it's too much of a stretch to say Mario's become too solemn or even depressing compared his appearance in Melee. That seems like needless nitpicking to me.
Same thing for Luigi, honestly I doubt it's that noticeable if it's not for the trophy description of Negative Zone.
I'll admit Bowser sounded better in Melee. But I'd say his voice in Brawl is still superior to his voice in most of the Sports games that came out before Brawl. I imagine SSB4 will give him his Galaxy/NSMBU voice.
And have you forgotten DK also had grunts in the previous SSB games? That's not specific to Brawl.
I disagree with your statement on Wario. I think Wario is fairly balanced and represented as both a Weirdo AND a Brute. He's always been a mix of the two. The Wario Land games where he was by far the most brutal. Still had a great degree of weirdness to it. Weirdness has been a part of Wario's character for a while. And with the WarioWare representation they represented that part wonderfully. And he's still very much a brute in his physical attack. Like he still has his sidearm charge attack in those moves from the Wario Land games. They even allowed him to be the only character in Brawl to have a completely alternate costume from his WarioWare suit when they give him his Plumber suit. I hope this kinda means we could see more characters get that treatment in SSB4.
On to the stages, it's a little weird how they had Mushroom Kingdom like they did. But I don't think it's meant in a depressing way. It's just World 1-1 and World 1-2 after it's been left on. The Dojo says "The kingdom you once knew has turned to ruins over the long years, and it is now your battlefield." I don't think Ruins entirely means it's done in a depressing way. Is the old structures that are abandoned but still standing (Ex: The Pyramids) depressing? I think it's just more they're focusing on the age of it rather then trying to make it look like something of the mario games is sad.
I'll concede that Rumble Falls isn't the most fun stage to play on. Though on the Mario Kart one, the only stage hazards were the Shy Guys. And that's easily avoidable by either staying at the top when they're about to go across the ground or staying at the bottom if they're coming from the upper sides.
25m Would probably be more difficult to make for an SSB Stage unless it kinda enlarged the stage so the diagonal stairs so to speak couls still be fightable platforms. because other wise there's just less space then even in the Mario Bros. stage at times.
And are you kidding? I find WarioWare one of the most fun stages to play as just because of what they do with the minigames. Sometimes the rewards are unfair like you both get it right but for some reason you turn Giant while the other person gets invincibility. But other then that I find WarioWare a blast to play on.
And I don't know, I find Halberd, Castle Siege, Green Hill Zone, Norfair, and Pokemon Stadium 2 to be fine stages myself.
All in all, I hardly think Brawl disgraced it's Mario series representation at all. But maybe it's because that's not what I expect to see from an SSB game because I like the SSB series for all of the series getting represented. If one series is getting a bit of the short end of the stick then I suppose that's a shame. I think the Mario series are a little better represented then some of the others still. What with 4 characters under the Mushroom Symbol plus again the Mini-Series.
The main thing however is I doubt we're going to agree on alot anyway. Because as I said, Brawl is my favorite of the games. And not just that, but my favorite Video Game period and might stay that way until SSB4 comes out and proves to be even better. I just find each installment so much better then the last because ther'es more, more, more stuff. In the Original SSB64 you had your normal Multiplayer, the Single player Mode with Break the Targets and Board the Platforms. Which while was fun, doesn't take too long to finish. Melee improved on it but adding Special types of Brawls like the Stamina or Giant and Tiny Melees in Special Mode. And of course Adventure mode and All-Stars. And had a twice as big of a roster so it took a while to do everything as every single character. WHich for those like me who don't get to play multiplayer with someone else too often, Melee is so much more fun then the N64 SSB. And Brawl did the same as adding even more characters, and the special mode now got to a even crazier extent with the options thing. Where you could have for example Metal Bunnyhood while Giant and have a Stamina. Not to mention that the Stamina was made customizable. Then you have of course the Classic and All-Star Modes, and the Stadium that were all derived from Melee and the Subspace Emissary where you could battle enemies in a Final Fight like style while you progress through a stage. Having your favorite Nintendo characters (And 3rd Party, having Sonic and Mario on the same party battling enemies is just absolute bliss for me). Then you also add the extra stuff like the better done Camera thanks to the Wii's memory system. You could take pictures in Melee but you'd need more or a larger memory card to save them. And then Brawl also has saved replays, even if it's only allowed a maximum of 3 minutes. That's still great to have and can be used to store some memorable things. Especially if SSB4 returns replays and allows a longer duration. Another thing I like to say I like to consider the SSB games as a sort of interactive information book on Nintendo, and the trophy descriptions in both Melee and Brawl do that well. Brawl add more to it with the Stickers, the very extensive Soundtrack, and the record of game releases. And heck the Masterpieces with short demos of some of the games was kinda interesting as well. They just compact so much onto a Brawl disc that for players like me, provides more entertainment and more to do then Melee could. I still like to go back to Melee and SSB64 from time to time. But there's no way I can ever say Brawl was worse then the other two
So for me, SSB is not entirely about representing the series all fair and equal. As even in Melee they had issues with representing some series. I find unnecessary additions to the roster (Ex: Pichu and Dr. Mario) worse then things like Final Smashes or so called out of character voice clips in the game. Considering you can have a four-player match where Ganondorf wears a silly bunny hood, while a Giant Jigglypuff wreaks havoc, A tiny Solid Snake running in fear, and a usually stoic Samus Aran flinging the hammer about even if it's a fake squeaky golden Hammer. Smash Bros as result is not just a way of representing the characters and their series, but also having fun with them and the more things you get to do with each character. Which is numerously done in Brawl, and expectent of SSB4 to add even more to. These are iconic Nintendo characters you get to do whatever the hell you want with them. You want Bowser to Beat Mario for once? Beat up Mario as Bowser. You want Mario to wreck havoc on every single one of the Mario related characters in a Face Heel Turn wreckage? Or maybe you want it just directly like the games where Mario and/or Luigi get to beat Bowser once again. I see the SSB series much like how the original game had the characters begin in a toy box. These characters look and act like the iconic characters but in the SSB games. They also become your toys basically, and you sort of relive a bit of mainly childhood wonder as you had your favorite action toys fight. What each new installment gives, is not only more "toys" (Characters) but also more things to do with them. You can say it's very much supposed to be a direct show of many of Nintendo's Iconic characters and franchises. But I think that's only part of what makes it special. The more fun you can get out of Smash Bros. game the better it is for me. SSB64 is the least enjoyable but it's still a fun knock around, Melee just multiplied that by adding more things to do and more characters to play as, and Brawl not only did to Melee what Melee did for 64 it also provided things to do if you wanted to without restricting it to just gameplay modes. Making stages, Posing Trophies, Listening to perhaps the biggest soundtrack in one game, etc. and whatever limitations they have that might be concerned just plants the seed for the next installment to improve upon. And thus far in that department it has done that, and it's a major reason for me why the SSB games just get better and better.
It also helps that I have alot to thank Brawl currently for personally but that's actually nothing to do with the game itself. But I'll just say that without Brawl, I never would of met the friends I have in this community or other online communities I've been a part of. So needless to say, I have alot to thank Brawl for on a completely personal matter. But it still adds up to why I love Brawl the most. As much as that might be a bit of a petty or too sentimental reason.
Overall, we just have different definitions of what makes a good SSB game. And in my view, the games just got better and better. While you say my favorite is the worst of the three. But the thing is, I love all 3 SSB games alot. While I think SSB64 was the least best it's only because there's much less to actually do. But it's still a fun ride to play again every once in a while. And it allowed me to basically grow up with the series as the game was one of my first games on my first home console which of course was the Nintendo 64. Melee was also part of my childhood as I got a Gamecube and one of my favorite games to play until I got Brawl. But it's not an insult to say Melee is 2nd place for me because the SSB series is my favorite video game series. Even if I think Melee and 64 are not the best SSB games, they are or at least close to being my favorite video game on their respective systems. I think all three games have their nitpicks about them you could say that might ruin some parts of the game. I won't deny Brawl has it's flaws, but I'm pretty sure you could find someone out there who finds as many problems you do with Brawl as they did with Melee. Some also say that SSB64 hasn't aged well. But remains the same is these are all 3 beloved games by most, and it's just up to personal opinion or interpretation on which games are better then eachother (Even if the majority say Brawl). And which games you decide to ignore or nitpick the flaws..
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Northern Verve said:
You can compare the color of Mario's clothes and skin plus the voices and facial expressions. In Melee, I know it's recycled voice clips, but they fit Mario. In Brawl, he sounds dull. It may sound like needless nitpicking, but Brawl screwed up Mario's personality. Mario needs to represent the person you see in the Mario games. Mario becomes his own character in Brawl: a depressed one.
Bowser sounds better in the sports games because it's representative of him: he's supposed to be an evil, yet cartoony and funny character. In Melee, Bowser didn't even have a lot of voice clips to work from. After all these sports games, Brawl could use Kenny James's voices, but no, we get generic monster noises.
Donkey Kong also has a few voice clips to work with in the first place. Even then, some of these voice clips are used in later Mario sports games. Also, Donkey Kong sounds more like an ape in Melee and Super Smash Bros. In Brawl, the time when Donkey Kong has more voices since Mario Strikers, Brawl decides to give Donkey Kong a "realistic" monster voice, which sounds like a lion.
In Wario's case, Wario Land is simply not represented enough. The only attack that gives a nod to the Wario Land games is that shoulder charge; sort of. But why are rest of the moves made-up? Wario has a ton of moves from Wario Land that can be nicely incorporated into his moveset. Brawl entirely skipped that. It's nice that Wario gets a lot of costumes, but other characters should get this treatment as well.
Northern Verve said:
World 1-1 and World 1-2 shouldn't be "aged". There is NOWHERE in the Mario games where the original level Mario is on resembles post-apocalyptic, and it's not necessary. Why did they think it's a good idea to make those two iconic levels from a lush, colorful, cartoony game depreciate into a wastleland? Yes, I think it's depressing. The colors are gritty and dull. There's hardly any life. They shouldn't be focusing on how much those levels "aged". They should make it recognizable and nostalgic, not as if it came from a post-nuclear disaster.
Mario Kart's stage hazards are easily avoided, yes, but the stage hazards are a wee bit too strong and there are walk-off lines. I don't like walk-offs too much. Otherwise, it's a fine stage.
I also forgot to mention Delfino Plaza. Now, THAT'S how Mario stages should be represented. I love the tour around the place. This stage is fun to play in. I have no qualms against this stage. Everything is recognizable, and crappy stage hazards are nowhere to be found. A few walk-offs are there, but the stage changes at least.
25m could be easily made into a stage. They can stretch the stage a bit so it's not as easy to kill opponents off the side. I don't mind the more "gimmicky" stages as long as the gimmicks aren't as painful to play with.
I do find WarioWare pretty fun and hectic, but the rewards are my main gripe against this stage. You have to play this stage to hope to get that invincibility reward...
I mentioned these stages because they need improvement or they are generic. Take the Halberd. It's an otherwise fine stage, but it would be beautiful if they change that horrid sky into Orange Ocean. Plus, maybe it won't hurt to add Heavy Lobster and all that good stuff in the background.
Castle Siege is generic in generic. I've never played Fire Emblem, but I've seen complaints on how this is simply a generic castle stage with "Fire Emblem" slapped on it. There's nothing Fire Emblem about this stage, nor do we really have a siege. We need more of an attack, but not to the sacrifice the fun on this stage. Castle Siege needs stage hazards (not cheap ones) just to show more action. Fire Emblem is barely represented in this stage, and tat's a bad thing. Maybe we can have people on flying horses and Fire Emblem enemies wandering around?
Green Hill Zone's problem is those crappy stage hazards (that checkpoint, oh my god). I also expected way more out of this stage. The Sonic characters in the background are a nice touch, but it's an otherwise crappy stage. Walk-offs, falling platforms, and stupid checkpoints all work together to irritate me.
Pokemon Stadium 2 has Pokemon, which is always nice. The hazards, though, are cheap and stupid. Pokemon Stadium 1 is much better. Pokemon Stadium 1 is in fact, one of the most balanced stages, and it's in Melee. Stadium 2 tried replicating it, but it ended up with more gimmicks. The best stage is the ground one. I don't like the ice, the wind, and the electric. Oh god, I hate the electric one.
Northern Verve said:
Again, I'm not judging how Mario is represented by quantity; it's the quality. I've already said that Mario gets a good amount of representation. But what continues to irk me is how unlike themselves they are in Brawl. When I play Melee after I play Brawl, Melee
feels to represent the characters better. And it's not just Mario characters. Super Smash Bros. and Super Smash Bros. Melee feel more "cartoony" than Brawl, and since it's a Nintendo game, it SHOULD be cartoony. Melee does have more detailed graphics, btu Brawl decides to bring this realism to a new level. Then, they introduce tripping. Is Brawl a cartoon or what? It seems to be jumping between cartoon and realism, and it's not working.
Northern Verve said:
In no way is Brawl a bad game. I know I seem to be saying so, but I'm basing my expectations from Melee, and Brawl has disappointed me. Brawl took many steps forward (I love the new Special Mode, and the ability to take screenshots and replays easily, especially with a few hacks, should be considered), but took so many steps backwards, I must repudiate Brawl. You praise Brawl over the other two games for the plethora of modes it offers. My problem with Brawl is many of those extra modes feel tacked on.
The Subspace Emissary (that's going to be on another post) manages to be horrendous despite the dual-layered disc indicating the effort spent on it. Sometimes, I think the game is centered around Subspace Emissary.
The Chronicles doesn't hurt, but it's still pretty useless.
Masterpieces is useless and takes up so much space.
Stage Builder is boring, uninspired, and poorly programmed (the AI), another waste of space.
Stickers are nice, but I don't like their distracting me in a fight. It's hard to resist. Trophies are still a million times better, even if many of those trophy models are recycled from their games. I'm not saying we shouldn't recycle models, but we should aim for some recycle and some redone, like in Melee.
The checklist, inspired from Kirby Air Ride, has uninspired objectives (get killed as Donkey Kong for 3 times, clear 15-minute man Brawl with all characters, clear Boss Battles with all characters, blah blah blah).
Oh, and we have online. Oh boy; we know how that is.
I have a feeling that Brawl is aiming for a quantity-over-quality approach. So many useless additions and not enough focus on the gameplay. The Soundtracks is very nice, a huge step up from Melee. Overall, though, there's so many cruft in Brawl. Subspace Emissary is the worst of all.
(continued)
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Northern Verve said:
I'm not insulted if Melee is 2nd place. Opinions are opinions, and I'm not trying to force my opinions on you. Unnecessary character additions in Melee is bad (even if Brawl pulls a Wolf, R.O.B., and Lucario on us). My biggest complaint is character balance and adhering to the source material. I feel "nitpicking" about voice clips and art style is important in a Super Smash Bros. game because you need to represent your characters in the most faithful way without directly ripping them from their games. This applies especially in a crossover, especially in a NINTENDO crossover. Why Brawl adopted a gritty look and feel for something that's usually associated with fantasy and cartoon? Final Smashes are a good concept, but it's executed so poorly that it feels like a useless feature. I'm not going to miss Final Smashes as much as I miss Dr. Mario, Pichu (because I can kill it), Mewtwo, and Roy. Brawl has more characters, but all of these features rest on top of a flimsy foundation, which is the flawed gameplay mechanics. Melee is far from a perfect game (clones, Diskun Trophy, gimmick stages, Kirby, LOL) , but it attracted two huge audiences with its easy-to-learn playstyle, but in-depth at the same time. Brawl, meanwhile, decided to overthrow Melee's structure, pissing off the competitive audience. Why? It makes no sense. Why spit in the face of one audience?
Bold: I don't see where you get the "majority" favors Brawl. It all depends on where you survey people. And I'm sure more people say "Brawl" more than Melee. In GameFAQs or in dedicated Super Smash Bros. boards, the results may be different.
I appreciate your opinions all the way just as how you appreciate my opinions. I always love to have a discussion like this, without flame-war and name-calling. Thank you.