Toad, a worthy candidate for SSB4 (reasons and moveset provided).
- Thread starter Propeller Toad
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Toad would not be a clone of Peach. Sure, it's possible he might have similar special moves. But I know Toad would have a totally different playstyle from Peach. Unlike Pichu, who was just a smaller, lighter version of Pikachu who damages itself when it uses electric attacks. Unlike Wolf, who fights similarly to Fox. Unlike Toon Link, who has basically the same moves as Link. Toad would have different smash attacks, different tilts, different punches, different grabs, different aerials, different pretty much everything except special attacks, and even those are different to an extent.
Propeller Toad
Dislikes the amount of neglect Toad receives...
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- #103
Sorry about the comparison with the Mario Bros.. I guess I misinterpreted that from what the others say that he does things similarly to them.
It is true that he may share some moves (possibly like the throwing and vegetable moves); however, aside from that Baby Luigi pretty much covered my point. He is very different from Peach physically and in terms of ability property. He can perform moves that Peach cannot even do (spin jumps, mushroom base moves etc). Also Toad moves very differently than Peach. In short, he may share some moves with her, but most of his basic fighting skills will all be unique. He is much more different than her physically than even the Mario Bros..
Also body shape relates to how a fighter is different from what I see. There is no way, Mario can perform the moves that the gargantuan Bowser can do. Also I don't understand the Marth and Roy part. Weren't the two clones in Melee (aside from a few differences?).
Koopayoshi
Shine Sprite
New Super Mario Bros Wii,The Spiked Red One said:
A few Mario Party titles
Wario's woods
SMB2
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Wayward Vagabond said:
Mario Party isn't mainstream
Allow me: Super Mario Bros., Super Mario Bros. 2, Super Mario Bros. 3, Wario's Woods, New Super Mario Bros. Wii, Super Mario Galaxy, Super Mario Galaxy 2
Toad Eightyfive
used to be here but peaced out
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Don't forget Sunshine and Superstar Saga (i think he's in SS...)Baby Luigi said:
Dr. Javelin
Nathan Latsk
You are all missing the point. Toad is not a major character in any of those games except NSMB Wii and SMB2. All of the characters in Brawl are major characters in their own series.
Except Jigglypuff, but apparently it has a cult following in Japan, so...
Except Jigglypuff, but apparently it has a cult following in Japan, so...
Propeller Toad
Dislikes the amount of neglect Toad receives...
- Thread starter
- #109
The Toad Brigade were pretty important characters in the Super Mario Galaxy games as they were pretty much found in almost every level of the two games. They provided comic relief in these games (especially shown in SMG). Though, they had more frequent appearances in SMG2. SMB 1 and SMB 3 had Toad as one of the few important, recognizable characters. There was Mario/Luigi as the hero, Peach as the damsel in distress, Bowser + Koopalings as the villains, and Toad as the assistance. The Kings? Not really that important in their roles. Toad's role can even exceed Peach's role sometimes (though it is her relation to the story of the games that make her more important than she seems). Toad even had roles in games like Mario RPG, Mario 64, Mario Sunshine while Luigi has not even received a role or even a cameo in some of these games.
And I don't believe all the characters are all in due to their merits. Some are in due to popularity. Are any of the Pokemon characters except for the Trainer important in the Pokemon games? Pikachu, Jigglypuff, and Lucario are generic Pokemon that just stand out due to popularity. It was this that brought them in. Yes, even Pikachu. Aside from Pokemon Yellow and a few spin-offs, tell me a Pokemon game where Pikachu was important to the plot. Even the Pokemon trainer is just an avatar for the Pokemon trainers (hence a representative since his image is so well recognized) while his Pokemon are arguably the most recognizable starters. Starters at least serve a role. Jigglypuff may have this popularity in Japan, but I'm pretty sure Toad has a much larger one around the world (including Japan) seeing how he has been featured in almost every Mario game and the merchandise he has been in far exceeds Jigglypuff. So your point about Jigglypuff's popularity?
Also Toad is not far from being a major character (it is just that this fact is sometimes denied by those who dislike him). I'm pretty sure that his importance can be seen more clearly if one looks back at the original games till now instead of just judging him by his roles in a few recent games. He is among one of main characters alongside Mario, Luigi, Peach, Yoshi, and Bowser (hence a chain Mario - Hero, Luigi - Partner/2nd hero [helps or is playable], Peach - heroin/ damsel in distress/third hero, Bowser - Villain, Yoshi - stead/third hero [provides rides or joins in], Toad - sidekick/third hero [helps out or joins in]).. There is a reason why he is there with them in every SMB/Mario spin-off game. He is also the only Mario character not playable in Brawl to have his own game. He may not have the biggest roles in every Mario game, but keep in mind that there is a reason why he is brought back in every almost every Mario game along with the other important characters.
Yes, THE Toad was in Superstar Saga. Infact, he was playable in this game during the intro. This actually makes Toad the first playable character in the Mario & Luigi series. Toads were also everywhere in this series (some even had big roles and the series usually has an event involving the Toads). Toad himself also appeared in Super Paper Mario recently (even had his own catch card alongside Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Mario's Partners in the hero cards).
Dr. Javelin
Nathan Latsk
Just because they are "frequent" does not mean they are "major".Propeller Toad said:
OMG NAVI OR ANOTHER FAIRY HAs APPEARED IN ALMOST EVERY SINGLE ZELDA GAME! THEY'RE MAJOR CHARACTERS NAO
Pikachu is the emblem of Pokemon around the world and is about as central to the Pokemon franchise as Mario is to his games. He's a freaking emblem. Toad can't even compare to that.Propeller Toad said:
Lucario was the most hyped Pokemon in Generation IV and therefore putting him in Brawl would only serve to increase the series' popularity. Toad can't do that.
The Pokemon Trainer's three Pokemon are some of the most popular in the Western world (Charizard is the number one, Blastoise (Squirtle's evolution) is number two). Ivysaur was thrown in because it would have been incomplete without the original three. These Pokemon were central to the franchise unlike Toad.
Again, you have a Western view point on Jigglypuff. The Japanese viewpoint is completely different. Did you know that Pokemon and Dragon Quest are the two most popular RPGs in Japan? It's quite likely that they have plenty of merchandise centered around Jigglypuff because of its cult following. Toad is nowhere close to that.
The point I made above stands here. Just because he appears often does not make him any more important than other minor characters such as Navi.Propeller Toad said:
Propeller Toad
Dislikes the amount of neglect Toad receives...
- Thread starter
- #111
Toad cannot be compared to Navi as he has done more than Navi. Toad has been playable in two of the best selling mainstream Mario games. He is also a recurring default playable character in almost every Mario spin-off title. Any other spin-off that he is not in, he is in with a major role (mostly a host). Toad also has recognizable roles in the games he NPC'd for. Toad's role also exceeds Navi as he can actually fight and go on his own to help Mario. Navi cannot do that. She is just Link's guidance and companion. Kind of like how Luma assisted Mario in SMG 2. Toad is a full fledged playable character whenever he is one.
I already explained the Pikachu issue. I am well aware of its importance to the series; however, I gave a reply in concerns to its own importance in the Pokemon games. Mario in his own series is the most important character and is the main hero. That is why he was an obvious choice for a Mario representative. Pikachu's popularity made it the Pokemon mascot, not its role. It wouldn't even have gotten Pokemon Yellow if it hadn't been given the mascot promotion. Lucario, I agree was a promotion for Pokemon DP. Toad can also be seen as a promotion. NSMB Wii anyone? That game already is the 2nd best home selling console game in Japan and the Toads are one of the characters featured for it. Again, I also already explained the starters. They are important to the series. However, I think you are underrating Toad's popularity. In all of your posts, you seem to ignore Toad's fan base which is pretty huge. There is a reason why he is merchandised so much, and loved in places like even Japan so much (check out their favourite video game characters poll for 2008 - Toad was there with an 8th place). The only other Mario characters on it were Mario and Yoshi. This shows that he does stand out in the Mario series.
Also I well aware of the popularity of the Pokemon franchise in Japan. However, you have forgotten to say that Mario series is also very huge there too. It is Japan's view of the series that made it the top franchise of Nintendo originally and even now. The popularity of Toad also made him one of the recurring characters in the series. Toad does have a huge fan base that you seem to be ignoring. Also how do you know Jigglypuff's popularity exceeds Toad's?
Um...yes, it does. There is a reason why the Toads still appear and are made as playable characters in many games. Toad has potential and Nintendo sees it. Navi was minor, but still served a somewhat big role. However, she cannot be modified into a playable character. Zelda and Peach only have a status as main and recognizable characters, but are rarely playable characters in the games. Toad on the other hand is one of the franchise's biggest characters and is even one of Nintendo's main icons. Toad can stand alone as a Mario series representative in many instances, and he can do it again in the Smash series.
Dr. Javelin
Nathan Latsk
Agreed that Navi was a bad comparison.Propeller Toad said:
SMB2 was not bestselling compared to practically any game after it such as SMB3 and SMW.
You could say the same for Waluigi.
He hasn't been a host in a long time.
Um, no he isn't. SMG?
I'll do the rest later.
Propeller Toad
Dislikes the amount of neglect Toad receives...
- Thread starter
- #113
1) SMB 2 still did very well back in those days. Yes, true it did not outsell SMB 3 or possibly SMB W, but it still did very well. It was even considered classic enough to be accepted in Japan and be bundled in Mario all-stars. SMB 2 was also remade twice. It was notable enough to be considered a masterpiece in Brawl, and guaranteed Peach a moveset in Melee to become playable.
Personally, I see SMB 2 as the Mario Sunshine back in the day. A game that is different, but is still loved for its uniquness.
2) Toad is still one of the most featured spin-off characters and is a default main one in almost every one. He also almost always expected in each roster as well. He was also one of the earliest spin-off characters to keep surviving as a main one in the recent spin-offs. Additionally, Waluigi is a spin-off exclusive while Toad also has support from the main Mario series, RPG, and other genres of the Mario series (other notable ones include Mario vs DK series, Luigi's Mansion, and Paper Mario).
3) He has been a main host/ref with Cream the Rabbit in the Mario vs Sonic series since the first game.
4) I said that he is a fully available playable character at whatever times he is available in (correct me if I'm wrong). He was not playable in SMG; yet, neither was Peach. Still he was playable in many other games on his lonesome. Also he maintained the comic relief role in both SMG games in his NPC role. Also I noticed that he is one of the icons the players could select in SMG and SMG 2 for a save file. This is minor, but I noticed that only important characters who players were willing to use as a save icon were used. These characters were Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, Toad (himself), Peach, and Luma. They could also use the Mii character or Rosalina in SMG 2. All were significant (though Luma and Rosalina were SMG representatives). Already having Toad there with Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Yoshi as classic Mario characters makes him pretty important.
Krizzy
Allo allo allo!
Jack Noir said:
Er, excuse me, but I believe that Toad doesn't really appear in that game, does he? Only in the Toad Houses, right?
Also, Jack Noir has a point with Navi and assorted faeries. If Toad himself only plays an important role in two or three games BUT people almost exactly the same as him appear in other games (The Toad Brigade, for example, or Sunshine's five toads), and if you count those guys as appearances of "The" Toad, then you should probably count all of the yoshis as "The" Yoshi, or all of the vague glowing dots with wings count as "The" Navi. This guy does not equal this bozo. Also, ever seen this section?
UltraMario
Donkey Kong
No, his species was a playable character.The Spiked Red One said:
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The Spiked Red One said:
Toad does play a role in the game, but not only is he in Toad Houses, you have to carry him to the end in some levels to receive a bonus. But I believe Propeller Toad's point is that two Toads play a major role in the game which is a turning point for the character Toad. I guess they put in colored versions of him because red already represents Mario.
THE Yoshi's movesets are actually based off his species in the Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island. The egg throwing, egg laying, the flutter jumping, the ground pounding, this came off his species, not himself. We should also take species into account because Yoshi's moveset is almost entirely based on what his species has done.
Propeller Toad
Dislikes the amount of neglect Toad receives...
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- #117
@The Spiked Red One
My point about NSMB Wii was exactly the way Baby Luigi explained it to be. Toads are playable in this game, and this indeed is a big turning point for Toad and his species. Regardless of whether they are blue or yellow, they are still featureless Toads. I believe the developers of Nintendo purposely made two differently colored Toads in order to satisfy the four color wheel (red, green, blue, yellow - the colors are distinctive). It is just that Mario already occupies the red color (along with white looking at his fire power up colors and blue for his overalls). Regardless, they still made this decision when fans requested Toad as an option for being playable (the others were Peach, Wario, Waluigi), and ultimately we got two Toads for the price of one. What about the Red Toads/THE Toad? Nintendo also stuck them in the game as NPCs as it would make no sense to include only two minor colors of Toad without including the Red Toads. Note that these two palette swaps of Toad are generic looking Toads that have no distinct identity such as that of established characters like Toadette and Toadsworth. Toad usually represents all Toads in most of the spin-off games, so I don't see how this is much different (even Toad's trophies mentions both himself and his species). Even see the pic made by Club Nintendo in my sig. That pic depicts Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, and Toad himself after the release of NSMB Wii. Toad is the generalized image of the Toads as a whole (very much like how Yoshi does it for his species even though more than one Yoshi appears in this game).
Do you think Yoshi got in by his lonesome? No way, from what it seems. He got in due to the importance of his species from the Yoshi games. That is why THE Yoshi is in the smash games as the sole representative of the Yoshi species (though many other colors of the Yoshis from the Yoshi games exist as his alternate colorations). That is why Yoshi is referred to as a species so often in his trophies and why there are events involving the player fighting against teams of Yoshis. Heck, even Yoshi's final smash is inspired by the Blue Yoshis of Super Mario World. Now, why is THE Yoshi or Green Yoshi the leading one? Perhaps because he is the most iconic and recognizable of all the Yoshi characters?
The same applies to Toad. If he got in Smash, think of what his alternate colorations will be. Yup, Blue Toad and Yellow Toad will be there along with Green Toad and perhaps alternates involving Purple Toad, Toadette, and even Toadsworth. That is why NSMB Wii is a big factor supporting Toad's inclusion within the next Smash Bros, and he will be the main Toad color as he is the most iconic and recognizable of the Toad characters.
No need to remind us. I'm sure we are all aware of this and the sections you pointed out (I look at this article quite frequently) As I explained earlier in this post, Toads = Toad. Why? Because Toad is repping for all Toads. They can't just add 10 Toads into Smash as a team. They could only add one, and that would be Toad himself. Yoshi is there alone; however, in the event matches you always see him with his species. Whenever most people see a Yoshi or a Toad, they just see them as Yoshi and Toad as most people prefer seeing the species as a character as opposed to calling them a Yoshi or a Toad.
Even so, how do we know if Yoshi is THE Yoshi? Look at the SSE of Brawl. Why did Yoshi attack Mario and team up with Link instead (though he teams up with Mario later). Character relationships were established since the beginning (eg Zelda- Link, DK - Diddy). Anyways, so he could just be a Yoshi in the developer's mind, but in our minds we look at him as Mario's trustworthy companion known as Yoshi (perhaps he didn't have a good sleep?). Which Pikachu is in Smash? Red's/Ash's? Who knows. For all we know, if a species has notability and has an established sole figure for it, then that character can get in repping his/her entire species as well as the character's own notability.
My point about NSMB Wii was exactly the way Baby Luigi explained it to be. Toads are playable in this game, and this indeed is a big turning point for Toad and his species. Regardless of whether they are blue or yellow, they are still featureless Toads. I believe the developers of Nintendo purposely made two differently colored Toads in order to satisfy the four color wheel (red, green, blue, yellow - the colors are distinctive). It is just that Mario already occupies the red color (along with white looking at his fire power up colors and blue for his overalls). Regardless, they still made this decision when fans requested Toad as an option for being playable (the others were Peach, Wario, Waluigi), and ultimately we got two Toads for the price of one. What about the Red Toads/THE Toad? Nintendo also stuck them in the game as NPCs as it would make no sense to include only two minor colors of Toad without including the Red Toads. Note that these two palette swaps of Toad are generic looking Toads that have no distinct identity such as that of established characters like Toadette and Toadsworth. Toad usually represents all Toads in most of the spin-off games, so I don't see how this is much different (even Toad's trophies mentions both himself and his species). Even see the pic made by Club Nintendo in my sig. That pic depicts Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, and Toad himself after the release of NSMB Wii. Toad is the generalized image of the Toads as a whole (very much like how Yoshi does it for his species even though more than one Yoshi appears in this game).
Do you think Yoshi got in by his lonesome? No way, from what it seems. He got in due to the importance of his species from the Yoshi games. That is why THE Yoshi is in the smash games as the sole representative of the Yoshi species (though many other colors of the Yoshis from the Yoshi games exist as his alternate colorations). That is why Yoshi is referred to as a species so often in his trophies and why there are events involving the player fighting against teams of Yoshis. Heck, even Yoshi's final smash is inspired by the Blue Yoshis of Super Mario World. Now, why is THE Yoshi or Green Yoshi the leading one? Perhaps because he is the most iconic and recognizable of all the Yoshi characters?
The same applies to Toad. If he got in Smash, think of what his alternate colorations will be. Yup, Blue Toad and Yellow Toad will be there along with Green Toad and perhaps alternates involving Purple Toad, Toadette, and even Toadsworth. That is why NSMB Wii is a big factor supporting Toad's inclusion within the next Smash Bros, and he will be the main Toad color as he is the most iconic and recognizable of the Toad characters.
No need to remind us. I'm sure we are all aware of this and the sections you pointed out (I look at this article quite frequently
) As I explained earlier in this post, Toads = Toad. Why? Because Toad is repping for all Toads. They can't just add 10 Toads into Smash as a team. They could only add one, and that would be Toad himself. Yoshi is there alone; however, in the event matches you always see him with his species. Whenever most people see a Yoshi or a Toad, they just see them as Yoshi and Toad as most people prefer seeing the species as a character as opposed to calling them a Yoshi or a Toad. Even so, how do we know if Yoshi is THE Yoshi? Look at the SSE of Brawl. Why did Yoshi attack Mario and team up with Link instead (though he teams up with Mario later). Character relationships were established since the beginning (eg Zelda- Link, DK - Diddy). Anyways, so he could just be a Yoshi in the developer's mind, but in our minds we look at him as Mario's trustworthy companion known as Yoshi (perhaps he didn't have a good sleep?). Which Pikachu is in Smash? Red's/Ash's? Who knows. For all we know, if a species has notability and has an established sole figure for it, then that character can get in repping his/her entire species as well as the character's own notability.
Koopayoshi
Shine Sprite
You so have a point
Dr. Javelin
Nathan Latsk
You keep making the assumption that Toad = Yoshi. Yoshi is completely different. He has his own series which for one makes him completely different from Toad.
Dr. Javelin
Nathan Latsk
That's a good question. Send Nintendo a letter or something.Baby Luigi said:
Propeller Toad
Dislikes the amount of neglect Toad receives...
- Thread starter
- #122
Yoshi has his own game series, yes. We are quite aware of that. That is why he got into Smash before Toad, Peach, and Bowser did. Now that we have reached upon the fourth installment of the Smash series, Toad can now finally get in. He at least has his own game to support him a bit even so (Wario's Woods). I use the comparison of Toad and Yoshi as both are very similar. They are sidekicks to the Mario Bros. who are also members of generic species.
Dr. Javelin
Nathan Latsk
They are not that similar. Toad has only been playable twice while Yoshi has been playable countless times. Yoshi is a popular choice for many games and it was practically demanded that he be placed in SMG2 after he was absent in SMG. People have gotten upset over how little a role Yoshi has gotten in games of late as in NSMBW where he was only available in a few levels and even then he had been extremely nerfed.
What are the four main Mario characters? Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Bowser. And if you limited that list to four good characters, it would be Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Yoshi. He's the closest thing to a major character there ever was, and Toad was only used as a filler in NSMBW. I'll bet that if Nintendo hadn't decided to make Yoshi an upgrade of sorts the four playable characters would have been Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Toad.
Also you keep saying that Toad has a brave personality when the game that you keep supporting, NSMBW has him whining "Help me!" in every single world.
What are the four main Mario characters? Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Bowser. And if you limited that list to four good characters, it would be Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Yoshi. He's the closest thing to a major character there ever was, and Toad was only used as a filler in NSMBW. I'll bet that if Nintendo hadn't decided to make Yoshi an upgrade of sorts the four playable characters would have been Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Toad.
Also you keep saying that Toad has a brave personality when the game that you keep supporting, NSMBW has him whining "Help me!" in every single world.
Propeller Toad
Dislikes the amount of neglect Toad receives...
- Thread starter
- #124
I am well aware that Yoshi has been playable many times (more so than Toad- even though Yoshi is ridable more so than he is fully playable). However, Toad too is frequently playable in many games (spin-offs and main games) as well. His demand earned him a spot in NSMB wii (especially in Japan) and there is a reason why he still appears as a regular in the games and spin-offs. Additionally, why do you think they still kept the Toads as playable characters in nsmb mii (a possible game or demo)? Because Nintendo knows there are people who are fans of Toad and are willing to use him. Also fillers! Really? Is Luigi filler in almost every game? Is Peach and Toad filler in smb 2? Peach can even be filler in any game (make her a reward sign or something). No, fillers do not exist. Nintendo decides and gives us the playable characters and we accept them as heroes. We do not just say they are fillers because they can be replaceable. There is a reason why we get specific characters in every game.
Also your point states out how important a character is by stating how many times they have been playable. You say Peach is one of the main characters; yet, she has been playable in less main games than even Yoshi AND Toad (only smb 2). But in terms of general importance, I won't deny that Peach is important (her story roles are important). How your point of playability = importance would not even include Peach! I'm sure people wanted her in as a playable in many of the main games; yet, Nintendo still didn't do that for their own reasons.
Also I don't see where you are going with this argument. Mario, Luigi, Peach, Yoshi, and even Bowser are already in Smash as playable characters. Toad has yet to make it in and he can now make it in as the other important characters are already in.
However, I compared them due to the similarities I stated before. Also you do realize it is not a
competition between Toad and Yoshi for Smash. Yoshi made it in the first Smash game before even Peach, Bowser, and Toad (I mentioned this before). The other two got in melee. We got no one for brawl (even though jr. was at his peak of importance at that point). Now we are at smash 4, and Toad can now get in. I personally think you are just underrating Toad's chances and do not want him in. I am not forcing anyone to support Toad's inclusion; however, I am tired of seeing people think that he is not worthy of making it in and that any support for him is "laughable".
Also your point for nsmb wii directs to the non playable Toads who were kidnapped. What else would they say? Being kidnapped is not to being weak as even the Mario bros. were kidnapped several times in other games (eg even Luigi was kidnapped in smg and not Toad). Anyways, we do have brave, playable Toads as well in nsmb wii and in other games. So they are able to be heroes at various times.
Also your point states out how important a character is by stating how many times they have been playable. You say Peach is one of the main characters; yet, she has been playable in less main games than even Yoshi AND Toad (only smb 2). But in terms of general importance, I won't deny that Peach is important (her story roles are important). How your point of playability = importance would not even include Peach! I'm sure people wanted her in as a playable in many of the main games; yet, Nintendo still didn't do that for their own reasons.
Also I don't see where you are going with this argument. Mario, Luigi, Peach, Yoshi, and even Bowser are already in Smash as playable characters. Toad has yet to make it in and he can now make it in as the other important characters are already in.
However, I compared them due to the similarities I stated before. Also you do realize it is not a
competition between Toad and Yoshi for Smash. Yoshi made it in the first Smash game before even Peach, Bowser, and Toad (I mentioned this before). The other two got in melee. We got no one for brawl (even though jr. was at his peak of importance at that point). Now we are at smash 4, and Toad can now get in. I personally think you are just underrating Toad's chances and do not want him in. I am not forcing anyone to support Toad's inclusion; however, I am tired of seeing people think that he is not worthy of making it in and that any support for him is "laughable".
Also your point for nsmb wii directs to the non playable Toads who were kidnapped. What else would they say? Being kidnapped is not to being weak as even the Mario bros. were kidnapped several times in other games (eg even Luigi was kidnapped in smg and not Toad). Anyways, we do have brave, playable Toads as well in nsmb wii and in other games. So they are able to be heroes at various times.
Gumball Machine
Celestial Guide
Baby Luigi said:
I agree that Peach is questionable, but Bowser...uh, he's the villain, 'nuff said.