Smash Bros. Character Merit (Ultimate Edition)

[Snow J]

There are some people that are unnecessarily and obnoxiously groaning that it wasn't another character. Unfortunately, though, I'm also seeing a lot of immediate bashing of people who respectfully say they didn't like Isabelle's reveal. Disagreeing is one thing, but calling them "ungrateful" and harassing them is another.

Just be respectable of other people's opinions, it really makes no sense to attack anybody either for or against a character reveal.

There are all sorts of these people. All we can do is ignore them if we're not fans of Isabelle (or whatever character) and hope that other fans of Isabelle (or whatever character) call them out on their crap.

[Kirby and Dedede]

Hey, did you ever do Geno and Bandana Waddle Dee?  I'd like to see what you think about their chances.

[Shygul]

sm
has piranha plant made you rethink your life

[Isabelle]

At least you can say that they have been a classic enemy ever since SMB, so it has that going for it.

[Snow J]

This is also Piranha Plant's first playable role in any game ever.

[Northern Verve]

And we have reached the end of the base game speculation! Time to get my thoughts out on our last two fighters.

As much as people were hoping it wasn't the case, the Box theory + Verge's named characters were all true. The Grinch leak will go down as one if, if not THE best fake leak of all time since it hyped up so many and now many are disappointed. Another of 4chan's infamous exploits. But despite the disappointment that literally none of the Grinch leak characters made it in besides Ken. What do I think of each of the two character's merits?

KEN

This guy has been pretty much known to be in the game since September with the introduction of the Box Theory, and speculated since August with the introduction of 3rd party echoes. Ken is pretty much THE original echo fighter in fighting games. Sakurai even points this out. So when it comes to clone merit he's probably actually pretty high up there. He's Ryu's best friend and training partner. So they're very much an iconic duo. As for my personal thoughts on him, I'm pretty ok with him. Though I don't think I'm going to be using him more then Ryu if I am going to use either of the two. It is kind of funny to be able to have a Street Fighter match in Smash Bros. though.

INCINEROAR

As with any old fogie in Pokemon fan terms (Reminder that I fell out of Pokemon in the middle of Gen 3). I of course can't say I'm any more thrilled with Incineroar then I would from any other Pokemon that came after my time as a Pokemon fan. But he looks cool and obviously provides a fun wrestler personality. Of course people are going to be disappointed they ended off the unique newcomers with him. But let's be honest, was Gamefreak and/or the Pokemon company really going to pass off the opportunity to shill a new Pokemon? We should know by now how they operate. They did the same thing with Greninja last game. It's just this time Incineroar didn't turn out to be as immensely popular as Greninja would become. But both are still gambles. Incineroar's still going to rank last of our base game characters in terms of merit. But he still ranks above the echoes still (In retrospect, I probably would put Greninja above Lucina back in the Smash 4 merits with the induction of Echoes. But they weren't named echo fighters at the time and I wasn't sure if Greninja was going to become that popular). He should be fun, just try to not mind me being an old geezer in terms of Pokemon generation standards again.


But wait, there's more! We already got the confirmation of DLC fighters! Even have a fighter pass of at least 5 characters to be revealed throughout next year! Certainly exciting. And what's this? We have a character that's a free bonus for pre-ordering the game or buying it prior to the end of January! Kind of like Mewtwo in Smash 4!

Who's the character?! What fan favorite and/or amazing surprise did they pick to incentivize people to buy the game ASAP?! Please! Tell me what i-

sm
has piranha plant made you rethink your life

This is also Piranha Plant's first playable role in any game ever.

....


.....


I....

I.... think....

I think I need a moment...

Ok... sorry about that... I just... needed a bit of time to process this... heck I may still be processing it. I'm not even sure if my speculator self will ever completely recover from this... but yes. The one character they chose to start off DLC with and even provide as a free bonus much like with Mewtwo that will be paid later... is a Piranha Plant

PIRANHA PLANT

I'll just say it right now. The Smash speculator in me is utterly broken. I'm not even mad, it's just an inclusion that's so mind-boggingly crazy that it nukes all common sense when it comes to Smash Bros. speculation.

Smash speculation was the very reason I joined internet communities. If it weren't for the Brawl speculation days, I may have never went online that much and met the friends I have ever since. I even got my dream character (Sonic of course) just months after joining Smashboards, my first ever forum. And there was no one I disliked in Brawl's roster since I believed one way or another all the characters earned or deserved a spot. So forgive me if all that time has left me with a high regard for inclusions in Smash. Smash 4 might of gone the controversial route for some. But even most of them had their reasons. Wii Fit Trainer? The Wii series was a massive success I attribute the Wii Fit Trainer basically coattailling off the Miis pretty much. All the Fire Emblem additions? Fire Emblem was brought back from the brink of death with Awakening and is now being pushed like it's Pokemon. Duck Hunt? Much like ROB represented an accessory on the NES with multiple games being in the moveset at once. 3 3rd parties all breaking preconceived notions of fanmade rules about 3rd party inclusions? Ryu and Cloud both are worthy inclusions because of their franchise's history on Nintendo systems. And Bayonetta is pretty much an adopted franchise parented by Sega and Nintendo. Even if you don't believe she won the ballot, it was a character that will remain Nintendo exclusive (Except for the first game) for a while.

Hell, even Dark Pit? The one character I complained most about 4 years ago? After Ultimate, he's retroactively an echo fighter. A quick and easy character to fluff up the roster a little more. And does kind of represent the Light and Dark theme of Uprising.

But Piranha Plant?! I will never complain about a Dark Pit-esque inclusion ever again. Hell, I might be broken from complaining about ANY fighter at all. It's broken that much of me in terms of speculation. There's hardly any room for argument on who can get in anymore. If a Mario enemy had to be playable, a Goomba and/or a Koopa might of made more sense and might of been a funny inclusion cause it's like they're the iconic mooks of gaming. But Piranha plants were simply traps that never moved from their pipes. It's like if in a Megaman fighting game they made the spikes that are insta-kill a playable fighter somehow.

I know what people are going to say. "It's a joke character! Liven up!". But I just want to say right now that I'm not upset about this. It doesn't ruin the game for me. Heck I still pre-loaded the game so I'll be getting Piranha Plant for free and will try it out in due time. Who knows, I may even find it fun to play as. I just think it's understandable for people to have... concerns about this. Many of us who love character speculation in Smash since Brawl are utterly dumbfounded. If you think my reaction is over-reactionary, I must remind you that I was actually laughing when it was revealed (Hell I even have audio recording to prove it that I might upload sometime next week). I was not salty, just.... utterly confused. There's probably plenty of other people who's taking it worse then I am at the moment. And it probably gets worse with the younger the fan and depending whether they got a character they really wanted right now. I can't be mad, I've ben through 3 base game + 1 DLC Smash speculation periods and practically seen it all when it comes to Smash speculation. Sonic returned along with all my favorites in Smash 4 and some really cool looking newcomers. I don't feel like Piranha plant stole a spot from anyone, but many others will feel like it has. If there's people that needs to liven up about this inclusion, it's not me. I've already been satisfied with this game since E3. Just that little part of me that likes to speculate with others on who would be characters that in the end only serve to be icing on the cake for me personally is just utterly distraught right now. Even if the next game reboots the roster, it's going to be tough to process the fact a Piranha Plant got in as a fighter. And the sheer unexpected reaction may even inspire the next developer or even Sakurai again to place another like it despite a more limited amount of spots just because it does give some degree of crazy buzz that at this point not many characters who are actually kind of expected can match.

We understand if maybe Smash Speculation should have never been taken as seriously as it has been. But this is just the very first time it feels broken. A Piranha Plant is our 7th unique Mario character when characters like Toad, Waluigi, Paper Mario, etc. are still left waiting in the wings. And as I mentioned before Piranha Plant likely isn't even the most popular or iconic Mario enemy. A Piranha Plant will have had more time, unique moves, and resources built into then Dark Samus, Daisy, Chrom, and Ken. On literally all fronts of speculation arguments. A Piranha Plant would get an F grade in all of them except maybe surprise/shock factor. I think this is the first time we can actually say Sakurai actively trolled us with a newcomer.

To get into Smash Bros. speculation now, there is no more standards for Nintendo characters at least. Have you always want to play as a Boo in Smash? How about an Octorock? Maybe that one mini-boss that you really liked from your favorite video game of all-time is now on the table. Go nuts, tell people what you want. They can't argue against it, a Piranha Plant got to be playable! What is there to lose?!

But yeah, that's all I got to say on the matter. It was an inclusion purely for the lulz and it worked. While it's always been kind of a meme. This is truly the time where we just cannot predict what Sakurai will do next.


Now that we're finished time for the rankings. I think I need a ranking category for just Piranha Plant at this point...

UNIQUE RANKINGS

#1. Ridley
#2. King K. Rool
#3. Simon Belmont
#4. Isabelle
#5. Inklings
#6. Incineroar

ECHO FIGHTER RANKINGS

#1. Ken
#2. Dark Samus
#3. Chrom
#4. Daisy
#5. Richter Belmont

SONICMARIO.EXE IS BROKEN

#Fish. Piranha Plant

[Ritsuko Akizuki]

i legit wanna hear your thoughts on reimu hakurei, main protagonist of touhou project, as dlc

and i'd also like to hear your thoughts on eggman as a bowser jr-style character

[Snow J]

I'd rather have Eggman be a Bowser Jr.-style character, and then Bowser Jr. just ditch the stupid Clown Car and fight on his feet.

[Northern Verve]

Just want to say real quick despite my reaction to Piranha plant it has not broken me from doing merit rankings. For some of those worried, At the very least, I’ll think 3rd parties will still need to have strong merits with Nintendo in some fashion to make it. And even with something Piranha Plant, it’s not like Sakurai’s going to ignore requests and make the rest of the DLC all generic enemies. Piranha Plant is the troll pick, it’s supposed to break with merits because for once Sakurai didn’t feel like limiting himself and wanted to try something new and outside the box. Which I can respect.

I also don’t think Spirits are a big deconfirmation since they’re basically the replacements for Trophies with even less development towards them since they’re just renders. Not to mention the existence of fighter spirits.

i legit wanna hear your thoughts on reimu hakurei, main protagonist of touhou project, as dlc

and i'd also like to hear your thoughts on eggman as a bowser jr-style character

Reimu Hakurei

Level Of Want

Most I know about Touhou is it’s rather addicting music and of course full of Anime girls, and of course it being a bullet hell series. It’s something I’m sure the Japanese love and the Otakus in the west. I just don’t know if it has the outreach for Smash.

Estimated Chance

Even if there’s more fighter passes past this first one. Touhou is going to have a difficult time getting into Smash. For one, Touhou seems to have never been on a Nintendo console. You could bring up Cloud, but he’s certainly had cameos before and his franchise was once exclusive to Nintendo systems. I do think the DLC is going to be mostly if not all 3rd parties. There’s so many 3rd parties that may have vied for a spot and so many bigger franchises out there that Touhou would be lost in the flood.


Dr. Eggman

Level of Want

As I’ve said before, I’d vastly prefer Tails gets in as the next Sonic rep. But I’d take Eggman as the next best thing for certain. Was kind of surprised he didn’t turn out to be a boss in Spirits. Might of been cool. At least Wily’s there as an Assist for another evil scientist in a machine somewhere.

Estimated Chance

If Sonic gets another rep through DLC. It’s going to be Tails. And I’m not even saying that out of my personal biases. Knuckles and Shadow are assists. The only Sonic Mii costumes were Tails and Knuckles. If you’ve noticed, many Smash 4 DLC costumes were either upgraded to assists or even playable characters in some cases. Eggman didn’t get one, Tails did, and no specific upgrade for Tails has been seen yet unless somehow Spirits counts as such. Of course I’m not even 100% certain Sonic will get a 2nd Sonic rep. It’s certainly no lock that it happens. Not even Shadow made it despite it looking like to make so much sense for him to be Sonic’s echo. Eggman is at least a Spirit in the game along with all the other Sonic characters. Heck he’s even on the very button for Spirits. So at least he’ll have a menu presence.

Hey, did you ever do Geno and Bandana Waddle Dee?  I'd like to see what you think about their chances.

First things first, apologies for getting this one a little late. I had never done Geno prior before but I had done Waddle Dee.

Geno

Level of Want

Well if it isn’t Smashboard’s favorite underdog character. A character that if all the Geno supporters in the world had rallied around say… Paper Mario instead, we’d probably have our Mario RPG rep already. Geno did have renewed hope after the discovery of Sakurai at one point legitimately wanted to add him back in Brawl. But looks like it just wasn’t enough for Base game. And Geno may even be a spirit in this game. Which isn’t enough to completely knock him out of contention but I feel like it’s difficult to see him coming now.

Estimated Chance

The honest truth for me is that it’s hard for me to see Nintendo/Square charge $6 for this character. I felt that if Geno wasn’t in base game nor the free bonus ala Smash 4 Mewtwo, he’s just not going to be playable. I feel now that Geno’s likely to lose out to a Sora or a Dragon Quest character. There is still some hope as the next DLC seems to be practically guaranteed to be a Square Enix character. I just don’t see Square Enix getting much out of Geno. 3rd party inclusions are supposed to be mutually beneficial. Nintendo certainly gets something out of rewarding the diehard Geno supporters, but all Square Enix will get is an obscure character they’re never going to do anything else with. Geno in Smash would not benefit Square as much as Sora or to be honest any of the other famous stars that happen to be in Square Enix’s grasp. Yes, Sakurai wanted Geno. But 3rd party inclusions are a 2-way street. It needs to be understood that Square might have more priorities.


Bandana Dee

Level of Want

Well after Piranha Plant, we can officially say the “Goomba with a hat” argument is dead. Because an enemy mook made it in WITHOUT a hat. So Bandana Dee have that going for them. As well as a decently fun pun of DeeLC. I’m still not sure personally a 4th Kirby character is necessary, but who am I to say. The plant was certainly not necessary either

Estimated Chance

Just like last time, it’s as simple as this. If a Kirby character gets added it will be Bandana Dee. No contest. They may be a slight dark horse in Marx, but Bandana Dee is the 4th player Kirby character. I however kind of stand my opinion that if Bandana Dee was going to be in, he would of been in already. Since I feel Sakurai would want a 4-player Kirby match possible right out of the box.

[Snow J]

We should also factor in moveset potential for these characters.

[Simon Belmont]

Touhou seems to have never been on a Nintendo console.

EXCUSE ME

this one too

they were in the 3DS version of that last one too

[Northern Verve]

So on Sakurai's Tweets yesterday regarding the selection of DLC characters being finished already...

This definitely puts a bit of a stranglehold for DLC character speculation. Even more so then the possibility of the 5 characters being the end-all be-all for characters (As in, no Season 2 fighter pass ever happens). Campaigning won't do anything, you can only hope characters have been chosen already. And they have to be a character that could conceivably be chosen to be put on a list by Nintendo and then not vetoed by Sakurai.

Now we don't have a complete understanding on what this means. If Nintendo themselves are making the list, will they mostly be 1st party and promotional so that they get most of the cash? Or are there a decent amount of 3rd parties there that Nintendo would put on the list to perhaps strengthen relations with a company. The more likely possibility is some mix of both. Though I would lean to a 3-2 split of 3 3rd parties and 2 more first parties. That way DLC if this fighter pass is all that's left for character DLC is evenly split between 6 unique characters where there's 3 more 3rd parties, and 3 1st parties. (That's including Piranha Plant BTW)

Now that DLC speculation has begun I can give a bit of the update on the 4 characters I was asked recently.

Reimu - Relatively no change, I was corrected by SiFi about Touhou not being on a Nintendo system with those Switch titles. (Blame the wikipedia page for the series not listing any Nintendo systems yet). But I see no reason to believe Nintendo picking the shots have raised Touhou's chances

Dr. Eggman - I no longer see a 2nd Sonic character happening at all. I just can't see Nintendo putting that as a priority for them. It does break my heart, as it also means all remaining hope I had for Tails has pretty much vanished. But I'm willing to accept it, cause I have Sonic himself still. He was still my dream inclusion since Brawl, and he's still here. I can't be too mad here.

Geno - I'm afraid I'm even more pessimistic about Geno with the news. Nintendo picking characters is a bit of a death knell for any obscure characters. I've always felt Sakurai getting Geno in Smash would require him to do some serious hand-wringing on not just Nintendo's side of thing but also Square Enix's. I feel it's much more likely Nintendo would put a Dragon Quest character or even Sora from Kingdom Hearts (Despite KH3 not quite on the Switch) on the list. We are certain to get another Square Enix character. And I just find it doubtful that it ends up being an obscure character from the 90s that would not benefit Square in any meaningful way.

Bandana Dee - Probably one of the few that might be helped by this news. Cause maybe they may want to tie-in a Smash reveal along with more waves of Star Allies DLC some time. There is still the danger of Sakurai vetoing Bandana Dee in favor of other characters. But otherwise, this should be good news for Bandana Dee fans.

Feel free to suggest more characters and I'll try to guess how this all applies to them

[Czario]

What do you think Rayman's chances for being DLC are?

[Northern Verve]

What do you think Rayman's chances for being DLC are?

Rayman

Level of Want

As I've said before, I would for sure welcome Rayman to Smash if it ever happens. It's strange though that every time I think he's a likely 3rd party something comes up to get in his way. It could be a strange licensing issue here. But perhaps with the success of Mario + Rabbids as well as the Rayman Legends port. It's more possible then ever.

Estimated Chance

I might be jinxing it for the 3rd time. But Rayman might be in a good position here for DLC, at least more then most 3rd parties in a situation where Nintendo is calling the shots. If you noticed in that last direct, Rabbid Peach was seen. Which is strange, since that is Ubisoft related. It could be another case where Rayman ends up just being a Spirit. But man, that's lazier then the trophy if so. There might be a bit of a concern with Rayman being in Brawlhalla, which is a free-to-play platform Brawler. But that game is owned by Ubisoft, if it was a non-Ubisoft game it may be a stronger indication that Rayman isn't in Smash. It could just as easily be something to hold people over until Rayman is announced for Smash. But yeah, Rayman's definitely a possible choice even in a situation where Nintendo is calling the shots. Heck, the reason why we got a Trophy in Smash 4 at least somewhat is that in Japan, Rayman is actually somewhat Nintendo property. Just there's a bit of strangeness where somehow that's not the case everywhere else. So yes, Rayman is one of the likelier 3rd parties. But he's been considered a likely 3rd party since Smash 4 DLC. so it's safer to at least have low expectations for him anyway.

[Northern Verve]

Pardon for not responding to news earlier then I did, just been busy alot playing the actual game and other stuff going on. I just thought I'd give a quick lowdown on the character that was revealed at The Game Awards. I don't actually have too much to say but thought I'd get my thoughts out there at last.

JOKER

It's another I'm just kind of neutral on. If I had to compare it to previous inclusions. It's a mix between Cloud and Bayonetta's inclusion. Persona isn't a heavy Nintendo-focused franchise albeit it did spin off from Shin Megami Tensei. A series that does have a long history with Nintendo. That brings up some memories of Cloud's inclusion. Though Joker is a relatively newer character and his debut game was on competitor consoles like Bayonetta was. I don't personally know much about the Persona series but from what I've gathered it's definitely a popular series and for that reason alone I can't say it's a bad choice. It's just going to be one of those characters that I know mostly through Smash rather then their game(/s). RPGs aren't really my thing and I've heard Persona 5 on average just to beat the main story takes more then 200 hours. No thank you.

The only real bummer I could say is because Persona is under ATLUS which is Sega owned, it destroys any sliver of hope of other Sega things such as my support for Tails as another Sonic character. But I'm not going to allow that to make me judge a character. The writing on the wall was kind of already there when Tails showd up front and center in the Spirits section of that last direct (And while I admit it's a bit selfish, at least Shadow didn't get in even as an echo either).

But anyway yeah, it's an okay inclusion to me. It's not a character that excites me personally, but I have seen a few who are overjoyed about this and that's a good thing. Should be interesting what the other 4 are (With rumors of one possibly already being known). And with how the sales are doing for the game (Nearly more then Brawl's lifetime sales in a single month), if we could be getting more then just these 5 in the future. ^^

UNIQUE RANKINGS

#1. Ridley
#2. King K. Rool
#3. Simon Belmont
#4. Isabelle
#5. Inklings
#6. Incineroar
#7. Joker

ECHO FIGHTER RANKINGS

#1. Ken
#2. Dark Samus
#3. Chrom
#4. Daisy
#5. Richter Belmont

SONICMARIO.EXE IS BROKEN

#Potato. Piranha Plant

[Mario Party X]

What are your thoughts on Chocobo?

[Northern Verve]

What are your thoughts on Chocobo?

Well after the bit of blueballing from the last direct when we were almost certain we'd get our next Fighter Pass character. And specifically the Square Enix character guess it's fair to get to something close to that.

CHOCOBO

Level of Want

It's not exactly an ideal choice for another Square character. Not only is it another Final Fantasy character, it's also a generic species. However, I'd be more then willing to forgive the choice if Chocobo came along with this:

Estimated Chance

As silly we can think about this, I think we already very well know who's our next Square rep. And it's certainly no generic. I think the best shot a generic species character out of all of Square's franchises is Slime from Dragon Quest. But I do think we're probably getting a certain hero from that franchise instead. Hell, Dragon Quest got some decent focus in that last direct. It almost seemed inevitable a Dragon Quest character was going to appear at the end. But I guess we're going to have wait a little bit longer. Going to be a bit painful if we have to spend another 2 months speculating and the data mine speculation we've had for weeks turns out correct still. Would rather have had it revealed in that last direct so we can finally move on to characters 3 and/or 4 which will probably have their reveal during E3.

[The DK Emoji IRL]

Do you have an actual ranking for Piranha Plant? Besides Potato?

[Northern Verve]

Do you have an actual ranking for Piranha Plant? Besides Potato?

It's pretty much my joke ranking that will have a different, random word each time the list is updated (Note that the first time Piranha Plant was up there it was Fish instead of Potato) that I plan to keep. But if I were to seriously rank it. It'd still be last in term of newcomers xP

Sorry if any of you guys like Plant alot. Just in terms of merit, I still see more in favor of even the echoes over it. Piranha Plant at it's core is just not a merit-based inclusion. Which is why I kind of got to give it a sort of "broken thermometer from the bottom" kind of thing.

[Isabelle]

I think Sakurai said he didn't actually put it in for the memes and said it was a fairly recognizable character.