Smash Bros. Character Merit (Ultimate Edition)

SonicMario

Star Spirit
Re: Smash Bros. Character Merit (Switch Edition)

Plague Knight said:
How about Rex, and what are the chances of him replacing Shulk?

And I know this is a very common question, but what are Ridley's chances?
Before I cover Rex. Replace Shulk? I actually fully expect Shulk to return and quite possibly Rex joins him with the success of the Xenoblade franchise. Even if only one of them can be playable, I feel Shulk has priority.




Rex


Type of Character: Newcomer
Franchise: Xenoblade

My Level of Want

My only experience with the Xenoblade is seeing all the cutscenes plus Chuggaa's let's play of Xenoblade Chronicles. I did try to rent the game for a little bit or two. But I learned quickly why these type of RPGs aren't my thing. I kept getting by a curb stomped by an early enemy. I don't much about X or the 2nd one. But hey it sounds like Xenoblade has turned into a successful franchise picked up by Nintendo. It used to be a Sony exclusive franchise back when it was called Xenogears until Nintendo bought Monolith Soft from Namco in 2007. So it naturally isn't a franchise that screams Nintendo. But it's good that this franchise that started out pretty niche (Xenoblade Chronicles was a gamestop exclusive and especially hard to find until it go on as a downloadable on the Wii U virtual console as well as a port the New 3DS) has spread amongst to many.

But anyway on Rex, I don't know too much about him. But I think I would be perfectly fine with Xenoblade getting two reps. Even if that would just add more anger about the "anime swordsman" complaint.

Estimated Chance

Like I mentioned in the reply already, there's a decent chance Xenoblade could get 2 reps. And if that happens obviously Rex is going to be that one. If there's room for only one, I think Shulk stays however.

Main Game or DLC?

Either/Or. I could easily see Rex join the newcomer pool as soon as the game released but may be a slight possibility for DLC. If I were to lean one way or the other, I would say Main game is more likely. I can't exactly wage Rex's popularity and if there's any huge Xenoblade fans who could enlighten me on what the general consensus on Rex is. I would appreciate it to better understand where he stands.


Ridley

Type of Character: Newcomer
Franchise: Metroid

My Level of Want

Here we go again, Metroid fans. Be prepared for yet another wall of memes about Ridley's size and potentially more Sakurai trolling. Once again Ridley will be the #1 most wanted Metroid newcomer for sure, but after missing out twice after being considered in the Top 5 most wanted has to hurt. Will the Smash team find a way to get Ridley working as a playable character? I don't know, but all I know is I hope it certainly happens just to finally lay the Too big memes to rest.

Estimated Chance

I think this is the time where we have to be cautiously optimistic about Ridley. Metroid is on the rise again with Prime 4 coming soon. I think it's hard to say if chances have improved. I might actually say slightly decreased. But I still think at the very least by now Sakurai has been hearing about Ridley for a long while now and perhaps may finally relent this time. I'd try not go get hopes too high but Ridley's might just be a distinct possibility if they have finally found a way to work him in as playable

Main Game or DLC?

Main Game. If Ridley's going to finally make it in after so long, I feel like they have to have him right from the get go. Maybe there's a chance they save him for DLC if say they need to time to think over just how to get a character that will obviously be the biggest in size in the Roster to work out. But finally getting Ridley in would make a good selling point given how much Ridley gets supported in Smash speculation.


Chibi-Robo

Type of Character: Newcomer
Franchise: Chibi-Robo

My Level of Want

Chibi-Robo would be a prime candidate for an under-the-radar more obscure character getting in. I don't really know that much about the series. But seems like the strange kind of character that would fit the new WTF character.

Estimated Chance

I think it just depends how Sakurai wants Chibi-Robo in now. Though I think the series isn't doing quite well enough to be a big consideration for Smash. The latest game was in 2015. But last I heard wasn't recieved as well as some of the previous games. And I thought I heard somewhere that Nintendo was banking on that game to revive that series. But unfortunately didn't hit expectations, so it looks more likely Chibi-Robo may still amongst the lesser known series of Nintendo.

Main Game or DLC?

Main Game. If Chibi-Robo gets in at all, it will have to be at first as the obligatory weird choice. I don't think he's a character that would entice that many to buy him.


Captain Toad (Or Toad in General)

Type of Character: Newcomer
Franchise: Mario

My Level of Want

If Mario gets a new character at all in Smash Switch. It needs to be some form of Toad. I may be a fan of Waluigi, Paper Mario would be a good example of an alternate version of an existing Smash character. But in all intents and purposes the Mario representation will never feel complete without a playable Toad of some kind. And Captain Toad possibly gives Toad the best chance at it then ever before. Toad's just one of the few Nintendo characters I feel are necessary to add to the all-star cast of Nintendo characters and is long overdue. I mentioned in the last thread that Toad has everything you think would be required to get in Smash. Perhaps the one thing was missing was another game to call his own other then Wario's Woods, plus the many platformers Toad is playable in, and a decent amount of time to establish himself.

Estimated Chance

Has to be higher then they were before. Captain Toad's game was released only weeks before Smash 4 on Wii U did. And there were plenty of new Mario characters already added to the game with Rosalina and Bowser Jr. So it's understandable he was kind of overlooked. But this time around it's been a decent amount of time for people to know more about Captain Toad aside from the cameos he made as far back as Galaxy and as recent as Odyssey. He might even drag Toadette with him potentially if they decide to have the gendered alts for Toad as well. I think if they add any new Mario characters at all. He's got the best shot. And if it does? It'll be about time.

Main Game or DLC?

Main Game. Adding a classic Mario character rebranded into a rep of a recent relatively liked game seems like prime material to add to the game immediately. I wouldn't be shocked if he turned out to be one of the first characters announced at E3 this year. Or if they have a Smash-specific direct before then. He just seems like one of those characters that could start off the new character wave.


Monokuma

Type of Character: 3rd Party Newcomer
Franchise: Dangan Ronpa

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I've only experienced Dangan Ronpa through Nintendocaprisun's let's plays. I don't think it's a game I could play, at least not blind. Because knowing that characters die I'd like to know if they die first before seeing what happens. May be cowardly of me, but I guess I just don't want my heart broken like what many fans of Dangan Ronpa often have to go to. Just overlooking conversations of people i know who are big fans of the series it seems that most of the best characters end up dead. I just can't get into series in which a character I get attached to has a chance of dying like this series and Game of Thrones. It's just not a feeling I like most of the time. But anyway, it would be really strange to see Monokuma in Smash. Of course it's completely unlikely. Unlikelier then most of the characters I've already covered in this list. But it'd certainly be something. I wonder if Monokuma would be the only character to have a different Final Smash animatic depending on who he catches (Obviously he could only catch one character, not allowed to get a group. But the bright side is if it succeeds it would be an instant KO no matter what)

Estimated Chance

Not happening. Dangan Ronpa has never been on a Nintendo console. And even if by some miracle the series gets ported soon enough and it gets a character in. We assume it'd be one of the students. Probably Makoto. Though admittedly it sounds alot harder to make a moveset for Makoto then it would be for Monokuma. But Monokuma isn't really the main character. Probably a 2nd rep possibly but even then you have Hajime too. Dangan Ronpa will never come to Smash. But much of this thread is talking about the hypotheticals. Don't see anything wrong with entertaining the ideas once in a while.

Main Game or DLC?

DLC, Obviously. Without a game on a Nintendo console it definitely isn't happening. And Monokuma would need more then the miracles that brought Cloud in.
 

SonicMario

Star Spirit
Re: Smash Bros. Character Merit (Switch Edition)

I've decided to just go on ahead and do a merit rating for each of the 5 veterans from Melee or Brawl that didn't make it back in Smash 4


Wolf

Type of Character: Brawl Veteran
Franchise: Star Fox

My Level of Want

It'd be nice to have Wolf back honestly. It's a shame that Star Fox might of hit another low spot as besides not quite getting as much respect in Smash 4 then it did in Brawl. But then Star Fox Zero proved to be a disappointment (And probably not getting a port to Switch given the game was so reliant on the use of Gamepad motion controls). While Wolf did have similar specials to Fox and Falco, his other moves were almost entirely his own. He was much less of a clone then alot of the other semi-clones that were in Brawl. And that really helped him with people really wanting him back.

Estimated Chance

Wolf will no doubt be the other Veteran character other then the Ice Climbers that should be quite plausible to return. Though gotta say it's a bit tiring to expect Wolf. Many thought he was sure to return last game in the main game, but he didn't. Then people thought he was a shoe-in to be DLC, but he didn't. They had every opportunity to bring back Wolf, yet it never materialized. While it could certainly all come to an end should he finally return. You have to wonder if Wolf fans are still not going to be very happy that they were led wrong for both of Smash 4's speculation periods. I think he does have a good chance to return. But after what happened with him in Smash 4 there definitely is a seed of doubt, so Wolf fans can no longer take things for granted. Because of the whole Smash 4 situation I can't tell if Wolf has any better or worse chances.

Main Game or DLC?

Either/Or. He could be in the main game to finally give the Wolf fans a breather as soon as they get the game. But he could also potentially be saved for the DLC period because cut veterans seem to be a commodity for DLC other then 3rd party inclusions that blow people's minds one way or another. Roy and Lucas were both saved for DLC, and Wolf could be Smash Switch's own version of that


Solid Snake

Type of Character: 3rd Party Brawl Veteran
Franchise: Metal Gear

My Level of Want

Oh Snake, snake, snaaaaaaakkkkkkeeeeeee... It's a shame everything conspired against him to keep him out of Smash. Not only did Konami become one of the most stingiest companies in the gaming industry. But his creator Kojima was completely alienated. Meaning even if Sakurai contacted Konami about returning Snake he wouldn't have a friendly face meeting with him about it, and Konami may even outright just reject Sakurai's proposal. Snake really didn't deserve this fate, he's the one that opened up Smash to 3rd Parties in the first place. Without him, it's hard to see the 3rd Parties being as big as they are now. Maybe Sonic and Megaman would of still made that universe's Smash 4, but they might been the only 3rd parties and certainly not the whopping 6 3rd Parties we got in all of Smash 4. I'd love Snake to be back so that all these characters can honorably fight him while thanking them for the oppurtunity. But them's the break

Estimated Chance

Just not happening, unfortunately. Konami has become a detested company in the industry. And the Metal Gear series looks to be heading to a close with the lackluster reception for Metal Gear Survive. Even if Konami does get a character, it's no guarantee that it's Snake. They could very well give Bomberman instead. Which I'm not saying would be a bad thing necessarily, but nonetheless very disappointing to Metal Gear fans who loved Snake's surprising appearance in Smash and those who became Metal Gear fans because of Snake's appearance. Just know that I'll forever miss him too. Snake deserved much better then this fate.

Main Game or DLC

DLC. If by some miracle Snake did return, I feel DLC would be alot more likely. There's no way Nintendo negotiates anything from Konami before Smash Switch is out. A combination of both a veteran character that missed the previous game AND a 3rd party inclusion makes him prime DLC material. This would likely mean no Snake codecs though even if they bring back Shadow Moses along with him. No way they put that much effort into one DLC character. Though that could also be because there will be so many more characters then there were in Brawl anyway.


Pokemon Trainer / Squirtle / Ivysaur

Type of Character: Brawl Veteran
Franchise: Pokemon

My Level of Want

The trainer is arguably the most meritable inclusion for Pokemon. It’s just unfortunate that the 3DS being unable to process Transformation / Character change mechanics that doomed his return. The Pokemon Trainer we see in Brawl is obviously meant to be Red from the very first Pokemon games. And he captured most of what the Pokemon series is about. Leading a team of Pokemon with limited stamina and through the use of clever usage of the different Pokemon to win the fights. The only question is now that the Switch version likely won’t have to worry about a 3DS version problem. Should they return the Trainer back to what he was in Brawl. There is kind of pros and cons to it. The pros obviously being returning a character that would of likely came back if there was no 3DS version and fans of Squirrel and Ivysaur would be quite happy. But those who have come around to Charizard might feel nerfed by this especially if the Stamina part of Pokemon Trainer returned as well. And newer fans already think the representation is too much in favor of Gen 1. Back in Brawl, Lucario was the only representative of a later generation then the first one. I think it’s perfectly understandable though, whether people like it or not, Gen 1 was where Pokemon reached it’s peak popularity. It was a cultural phenomenon that just wasn’t going to be sustained aside from a brief fad where everyone and their moms were playing Pokemon Go. Honestly it wouldn’t be a surprise if the Pokemon game on the Switch blow up more then it already destined to be, is because game was focused in or at the very least started in Kanto with mostly Gen 1 Pokemon being the focus. Never underestimate the power nostalgia brings in to raking in the cash.

Estimated Chance

To be honest, I feel Pokemon Trainer probably will still be left out. And same for Squirtle and Ivysaur. I think they’ll stick to just Charizard as the only remaining part of Pokemon Trainer left. Keep Greninja, and also add a Gen 7 Pokemon (Most likely Decidueye, that way all 3 types that the Trainer had returned in a way. Just not the trainer himself)

Main Game or DLC?

If the Trainer were to return though, definitely a main game addition. As 3 characters in one is a lot for a DLC choice. Charizard would be likely merged back. And the Trainer would have his rightful spot on the roster. But for the sake of convenience and more spots for other generations. I think the Trainer still remains gone despite arguably being the best possible representative of Pokemon


Pichu

Type of Character: Melee Veteran
Franchise: Pokemon

My Level of Want

When even Sakurai doesn’t seem to care about bringing them back. Who really, really, really wants Pichu other then to have that 100% completion of everybody who was playable in a Smash game before come back in one game?

Estimated Chance

Sakurai has said he hates cuts just about as any Smash Bros. fan that doesn’t like leaving many behind. But he seems to have definitely viewed Pichu as the one-time joke character that he has not attempted to bring back in the slightest. Pichu was never found amongst the worked on fighters or anything like that. Pichu is likely to be the one 1st party veteran to be forever left behind and aside from a small number of fans who’d like it back regardless isn’t going to many people disappointed that he’s not

Main Game or DLC?

Either/or. Pichu only comes back if Sakurai decides to just bring back everyone that’s plausible to return. A slight possibility for Pichu to be DLC, so the people who do want it back can have their wish but others who don’t can choose not to.


Ice Climbers

Type of Character: Melee Veteran
Franchise: Ice Climber

My Level of Want

I never really used the Ice Climbers much. But it’d be nice for the fans that do get out of the limbo that Smash 4 put them in. Though one thing that does worry me about the Ice Climbers is what of 8 Player Smash? Contrary to popular belief, the 3DS version was not the only reason they decided to drop the Ice Climbers for Smash 4. A reminder that Melee and Brawl both suffered from some slowdown if there was a four player Ice Climber match. Could the Switch really be powerful enough to sustain 16 Ice Climbers at once without major issue? I do really like 8 Player Smash, it’s absolute chaos, but fun chaos nonetheless. There’s nothing more satisfying then having a Final Smash manage to hit all 7 other fighters. And I’m sure 8 Player had to have been a hit for household parties. So the issue becomes do we prioritize one character in the roster that people have enjoyed playing since Melee or a new mode that allowed more people then ever before to play Smash together. You could compromise by say, having the Ice Climbers the only character you can’t play as in 8 Player Smash and having the game tell you exactly why. Though I don’t know if people would see that as fair. If however I was given the choice between one or the other, I’m sorry Ice Climber fans but I’d pick bringing back 8 Player Smash over the Ice Climbers. More ways to play are just more important to me then one character that I don’t play as very often. 8 Player Smash doesn’t just have 8 Player free for all, you can have 4 vs 4, 5 vs. 3, 6 Vs. 2, 7 Vs. 1, 2 vs. 2 vs. 2 vs. 2 and many more variants that come from being able to have 5, 6, and 7 players at once aside from what up to 4 already provided.

Estimated Chance

Probably the most likely veteran to return given Sakurai has downright stated publicly that he tried getting them to work in Smash 4 but just couldn’t and without the 3DS issues now he may feel pressured to bring them back at last. I think the 8 Player Smash issue is enough to provide at least a little bit of doubt. But many expect them back now that there’s no longer a handheld version to hold things back. I think they will come back, but it will be bittersweet if it means 8 Player Smash doesn’t come back. It deserves to be played in more households then it got because of the failure of the Wii U.

Main Game or DLC?

Main Game for sure. Only way Ice Climbers are saved for DLC is if say they bring back 8 Player Smash, still having troubles so they're working on some type of workaround. (Another option other then just not having them playable in 8 Player Smash is having a solo Ice Climber in that mode only)
 

SonicMario

Star Spirit
Re: Smash Bros. Character Merit (Switch Edition)

I'll just say now that there's a chance that sometimes I'll do a pack of characters even if there was no requests for it. I have 2 packs of 5 characters I may get to. But mainly because there were requests in the old thread and it'd probably be a good idea to give an update on some of those chances.

This 5 pack will be centered around some 3rd Party choices.



Shantae

Type of Character: 3rd Party Newcomer
Franchise: Shantae

My Level of Want

I'm only a bit of a casual fan of the Shantae series. I did get both Pirate's Curse and Half-Genie Hero on Wii U. But haven't finished them. And despite both being now on the Switch I feel no need to buy them again if I'm not going to finish the Wii U version anyway. But if there are any indie characters to get in Smash. I would pick Shantae. She's had the longest history with Nintendo, having been around since the days of the Game Boy Color and her animal transformations would make for an interesting moveset for sure. I mean no disrespect to Shovel Knight, but Shantae just has much more history.

Estimated Chance

However, she isn't any more likely then Shovel Knight getting in still. Even if Bayonetta has broken the bonds of how legendary you have to be in order to get in Smash as a non-Nintendo character, indies are still going to have to work harder then most to get a character in Smash. Because there are still many Triple-A companies with characters that would likely rake in more sales and/or hype for the game. If Bayonetta has released more chains on 3rd party inclusions at all that doesn't just help indies after all. Characters that aren't quite super legendary on the level of Mario, Sonic, Megaman, and Pac-Man but still relatively well-known to longtime games like Bomberman, Crash, Spyro, etc. would also be helped. So the competition remains the same. Just that every character just had their chances for smash upticked just a little bit. And even then, Bayonetta could of been a special case since if it weren't for Sega and Nintendo's efforts there wouldn't have been more games after the first one. Bayonetta is arguably an adopted franchise for Nintendo at this point. And it did take being a strong candidate in the ballot to do it. Which an indie character (by virtue of being an indie game in the first place) will have difficulty doing.

Main Game or DLC?

DLC, for sure. I doubt we get an indie character right from the get go. They'd absolutely have to be DLC.


Spyro

Type of Character: 3rd Party Newcomer
Franchise: Spyro the Dragon

My Level of Want

I've never played any Spyro games. Though that could be changed with the rumored remastered trilogy coming. Though certainly not for a little while since it will likely have a 1-year PS4 exclusivity deal like the Crash one did (I do have a PS4, but I think I'd prefer waiting for it on Switch. I'm even considering double dipping with the Crash Trilogy only because I have been a big Crash fan. And the portability is a plus). Spyro is tied often with Crash as the developers of both were close back in the early days and they even had a crossover game series on the GBA as well as some cameos occasionally in eachother's games (Or at least I only know of the Spyro in Twinsanity one). Even down to both frachises hitting a bit of a down period in the mid-2000's. Technically Spyro is the more overall recently successful one but that comes with the caveat of Spyro being tied to Skylanders, which let's just say it's not what classic Spyro fans wanted Spyro to be these days or look like for that matter. But even more recently it looks like Crash is the one on top after the success of the trilogy and Spyro still stuck in Skylanders. At least until said Spyro trilogy comes out. Crash and Spyro have been almost nearly tied to the hip with alot of things in their history. But if Crash made it into Smash Switch would that mean Spyro's for sure coming too? Well....

Estimated Chance

I'm afraid Crash would probably enter solo. I think if Spyro is to make it into Smash, Crash will have to do it first. But I doubt both come into Smash Switch. I think Crash would have to come in as Smash Switch DLC and then return for the next game. And with the possibility of more recognition after a revival of the franchise then we may see Spyro in Smash 6 (Or 7 if you view the series like Sakurai). I just can't see Spyro being in this game though. The news of a Spyro trilogy just came way too late and the game will probably be on the Switch by the time DLC for Smash Switch is wrapping up.

Main Game or DLC

Again, definitely DLC. By some miracle Spyro makes it in Smash despite the impending PS4 exclusivity deal for the trilogy, it would be through here. But it'd definitely have to be preceded by an announcement of Crash. Or imagine if we got Crash and Spyro in the same announcement. The internet would be in utter madness.


Banjo & Kazooie


Type of Character: 3rd Party Newcomer
Franchise: Banjo & Kazooie

My Level of Want

We all know about the reasons there is hype behind Banjo possibly being in Smash some day. Phil Spencer, a higher-up at Microsoft in a tweet during the Smash 4 DLC period said that if Nintendo contacted them about Banjo they'd absolutely do it. And to be fair, it might be more possible now then ever. As Minecraft is currently owned by Microsoft company yet it did just fine being on the Wii U and the Switch. The Switch version will even eventually have cross-play though not until later in the year. As an interesting note. Wii U and Switch minecraft versions also have access to some Microsoft character skins such as Master Chief, and yes, Banjo as well. So the closest we have on Banjo being back on Nintendo is through Minecraft. Though Minecraft skins is one thing, putting Banjo in Smash would be another story altogether. Especially interesting is that Banjo was a strong consideration back in Melee's development. But Rare being bought out likely prevented any chance of it happening. Could the stars align for it to finally happen this time though?

Estimated Chance

Despite Phil Spencer's thoughts on the matter it still might be a bit of a complicated affair. Sure Nintendo got some characters that would of fit just right with the Playstation All-Stars cast like Snake and Cloud. But both weren't technically Sony property. Rare is however now a part of Microsoft, so it's indeed that much more complicated for things to happen for Banjo to be cleared for Smash. It's not going to be an easy road. But no doubt there will be an internet explosion, perhaps the biggest since Sonic's reveal in Brawl. And under the circumstances might just be THE most break the internet style inclusion in Smash Bros. history. It would mean Smash Bros. has transcended past consoles wars of not just the past as Sonic and Cloud does, but also the present, and maybe could even be the ticket to video game companies being less black and white when it comes to special crossover projects. Obviously the urge for buisness will still to try to outsell the other companies but for even just a fleeting moment. One game where reps that are famous on all the major console makers can all be included can lead to some lines being blurred between fans of gaming. It'd be a glorious day for sure, but that's because it still feels like a bit of a pipe dream. But hey, at one point Sonic being in Smash must of felt like a pipe dream. And so did having Mario, Sonic, Megaman, Pac-Man, Ryu, and Cloud all in one official game. If Smash Switch is going to have that internet breaking moment that leaves everyone in awe of "How did this happen?! And why is it so awesome?!" once again, Banjo would be the character to do it.

Main Game or DLC

Absolutely DLC. I'm willing to be it's kinda too late for Banjo to get in immediately. The negotiations for Banjo may take a while. So DLC would definitely be the route taken. Especially since that's where the most out there characters came in for Smash 4 3rd Party wise. Ryu, Cloud, and Bayonetta all broke pre-established "rules" and if Banjo came in. "Owned by a competing console maker" will be just another on the list.


Dr. Eggman

Type of Character: 3rd Party Newcomer
Franchise: Sonic the Hedgehog

My Level of Want

If Tails can't make it, then Eggman would probably be the next best thing. And probably more neutrally accepted even amongst those that aren't big fans of the Sonic franchise if it were to happen since Eggman isn't one of Sonic's "annoying friends". I think the only problem might be a bit more difficulty on deciding how he'd fight. Best I could think of is something akin to Bowser Jr. only bigger, heavier. And in the Egg Mobile with obviously a different toolset. It'd be absolutely fun though to have Mike Pollock record lines for Smash as he's an absolute blast as Eggman. I do think it'd be more fitting if say they ever included a Sonic related Boss rather then as the 2nd Sonic character. But I certainly wouldn't complain.

Estimated Chance

3rd Party franchises getting 2nd reps are going to be quite low in chance. Once we hit the DLC period though anything goes. So who really knows. As for Eggman himself's chances of being the character to break that rule. Not to sound biased but I think Tails out prioritizes him for a few reasons. Maybe even Knuckles before Eggman too. Not that I think Tails is that much more likely (I'll be covering that next actually) But we did get Luigi in Smash before Bowser. You could say that was because Luigi was easier to make because he was more of a clone of Mario back in Smash 64. But you have to think that when it comes to 2nd reps, the iconic 2nd player and/or sidekick tends to get in over the main villain. Even if the Mario example isn't enough. Reminder that we still don't have K. Rool but we've had Diddy since Brawl. As I said earlier I'd rather Eggman represented as a boss should the Sonic series ever include one for any reason. It'd be fun to fight him with all the different characters that way.

Main Game or DLC?

2nd 3rd Party franchise reps are definitely going to be DLC. I don't see them doing something like that for the main game. Because it fits the criteria so far for 3rd Party DLC to be breaking pre-established rules it seems.


Miles "Tails" Prower

Type of Character: 3rd Party Newcomer
Franchise: Sonic the Hedgehog

My Level of Want

If you didn't already know, Tails was who I voted for in the Smash Ballot. Perhaps it's a little greedy for me to suggest a 2nd Sonic rep over some Nintendo characters that could use some love. But when it comes to the one character I want most in Smash now that Sonic has already made it. Tails is it. Though a bit of a disclaimer, I won't be disappointed one way or another if Tails doesn't make the cut. Cause Sonic was already that dream inclusion fulfilled for me. Every new character that'd made it in Smash that I happen to like since Sonic got in is equivalent to whip cream on my glorious ice cream sundae. But Tails would be the sweet, sweet, sweet cherry on top. Tails is just my favorite Sonic character, and he just happens to be the franchise's equivalent of what Luigi is to Mario. Perhaps he's not treated or even portrayed as well as that nowadays but you'd be pretty hard pressed to suggest that someone else deserves the title of Sonic's Luigi. And what I mean by Luigi, as in the other character that often pops up in your head whenever you hear the franchise's name. The main character always pops in your head behind them, but not far behind them you usually imagine their sidekick, brother, or whichever role the player 2 character plays as right besides them running through the levels. When I think Sonic, I picture Sonic running through levels at a fast pace with his buddy Tails close behind. They're just one of the most iconic duos in gaming and despite being what would be another Sonic rep at face value, I count Tails as much of an icon of gaming as any. There would be naysayers if it were to happen, but Tails is absolutely the most iconic choice for another Sonic rep in Smash. Eggman may be the main villain but I expressed why I think he's less likely then Tails already, Knuckles may make more sense to be fighting but while he's a classic character for sure I just think he's a slight bit less of an iconic choice. And while Shadow may arguably be more popular then Tails is these days, he's also kind of a controversial matter. It would absolutely make my entire life to see a Sonic & Tails Vs. Mario & Luigi battle be possible in Smash Bros. It's just one of those things I could die happy knowing that I got to see happen.

Estimated Chance


Sorry if that got a little gush-heavy over my most wanted character. But it's time to delve into a little reality. I'm not confident in it happening much at all, and I'm ok with that. As much as I said things about dying happy about it. Sonic being in Smash in general is also kind of already that. I don't think it's an impossibility, despite the ups and downs over the years the Sonic franchise is still one of the most popular franchises out there and as such the Sonic franchise would be the one to break the mold should they decide to break the only one character per 3rd Party franchise rule. For that to happen a character should have have to be arguably just as iconic to gaming as the main character and I think Tails fulfills that well enough. It might not be quite enough right now but should they look at it by the time Smash 6 (Or again 7, if you're like Sakurai) rolls around that he'll become an ever stronger possibility as Sonic would have a strong foothold in the series. I can keep my two fingers crossed for the two tailed fox. But I'm certainly not going to count on it. I understand that other companies' reps would probably provide more diversity and not everyone wants one of Sonic's "annoying friends" in Smash. So Tails isn't impossible but he's nowhere near a strong possibility. But if it ever happens, it'd be the one character that would probably put me in Etika-was-shown-Mewtwo-DLC kind of excitement

Main Game or DLC?

As I said with Eggman's section, DLC is the only way this happens at all. It might also provide a little bit of a compromise that don't want any more Sonic characters in the game. If you wouldn't like Tails in Smash, then don't buy him.
 

Duskull

Star Spirit
Core 'Shroom Staff
Retired Wiki Staff
Re: Smash Bros. Character Merit (Switch Edition)

I saw you mention Decidueye, and to be fair, I was actually wondering on your full thoughts on its inclusion.
 

SonicMario

Star Spirit
Re: Smash Bros. Character Merit (Switch Edition)

Decidueye

Type of Character: Newcomer
Franchise: Pokemon

My Level of Want

While I haven't been big into Pokemon in a long time. Some of the newer generations after I lost interest certainly has had some excellent designed Pokemon over the years. And I do think the whole Rowlet line looks like a great new Pokemon from Sun and Moon. I also did get to play as Decidueye for a short while when I rented Pokken Tournament DX so I've already played a fighter with it in it. So why the heck not have another?

Estimated Chance

Probably the most likely Sun and Moon rep. Especially if Charizard and Greninja both return because that might finally point us to a completion of the Starting pokemon triangle that has kinda left a hole in the Pokemon representation because of how Ivysaur had to be cut that feels odd after the way Brawl represented Pokemon. Charizard would be fire, Greninja would be water, and Decidueye would be Grass. While I've said that character shapes don't necessarily need to be represented. This may be the only one that might make some kind of sense to see happen.

Main Game or DLC?

Either/or. While if I had to say one, I'd lean towards being a main game addition. Though Sakurai has told us that the Pokemon company is oddly quite stingy with it's representatives. They may be satisfied with the current representatives in Smash already. I'm also thinking this may partly depend on whether or not Mewtwo is in the main game. If Mewtwo is in, maybe they save Decidueye for a little later so people have the choice whether they'd be ok with having 7 Pokemon in their roster. If Mewtwo is being saved for DLC again instead, then they may try to have a bit of damage control by making sure they at least have a unique character like Decidueye in his place until they have us buy Mewtwo yet again.
 

SonicMario

Star Spirit
Re: Smash Bros. Character Merit (Switch Edition)

UPDATE ALERT!


Northern Verve said:
Spyro

Type of Character: 3rd Party Newcomer
Franchise: Spyro the Dragon

My Level of Want

I've never played any Spyro games. Though that could be changed with the rumored remastered trilogy coming. Though certainly not for a little while since it will likely have a 1-year PS4 exclusivity deal like the Crash one did (I do have a PS4, but I think I'd prefer waiting for it on Switch. I'm even considering double dipping with the Crash Trilogy only because I have been a big Crash fan. And the portability is a plus). Spyro is tied often with Crash as the developers of both were close back in the early days and they even had a crossover game series on the GBA as well as some cameos occasionally in eachother's games (Or at least I only know of the Spyro in Twinsanity one). Even down to both frachises hitting a bit of a down period in the mid-2000's. Technically Spyro is the more overall recently successful one but that comes with the caveat of Spyro being tied to Skylanders, which let's just say it's not what classic Spyro fans wanted Spyro to be these days or look like for that matter. But even more recently it looks like Crash is the one on top after the success of the trilogy and Spyro still stuck in Skylanders. At least until said Spyro trilogy comes out. Crash and Spyro have been almost nearly tied to the hip with alot of things in their history. But if Crash made it into Smash Switch would that mean Spyro's for sure coming too? Well....

Estimated Chance

I'm afraid Crash would probably enter solo. I think if Spyro is to make it into Smash, Crash will have to do it first. But I doubt both come into Smash Switch. I think Crash would have to come in as Smash Switch DLC and then return for the next game. And with the possibility of more recognition after a revival of the franchise then we may see Spyro in Smash 6 (Or 7 if you view the series like Sakurai). I just can't see Spyro being in this game though. The news of a Spyro trilogy just came way too late and the game will probably be on the Switch by the time DLC for Smash Switch is wrapping up.

Main Game or DLC

Again, definitely DLC. By some miracle Spyro makes it in Smash despite the impending PS4 exclusivity deal for the trilogy, it would be through here. But it'd definitely have to be preceded by an announcement of Crash. Or imagine if we got Crash and Spyro in the same announcement. The internet would be in utter madness.
Well... now that we have this:


I think a slight update to the chances is in order.

I think for the most part this at least slightly raises his chances at Smash for sure. Though there's one thing of concern of course and that the Switch version is not listed even though it looks like Spyro won't be getting the 1 Year PS4 exclusivity deal that Crash got. Now so far I don't think entirely means for some reason they're going to keep Spyro away from the Switch. Either they're going to release Spyro on the Switch (And I imagine PC as well) a little later. Or perhaps there's some NDA with Nintendo where in the next direct they'll announce the trilogy is coming at around the same time at the other releases. There was an official Nintendo store in UK that even put it up on pre-order.

That said aside from being wrong about an exclusivity deal happening most of what I said still kinda applies. We're not getting Spyro before Crash gets in. I do think that now there isn't an exclusivity deal that maybe just maybe they can both get in together in this game. But still if only one of the two makes it in, it's Crash plain and simple.

Still, in order for Nintendo to get the rights for Crash. Toys for Bob and Activision will be the companies they'll have to get in contact with, and Nintendo has co-operated in the past for things like Skylanders with the inclusion of Bowser and DK in the Wii U Versions of Skylander games. If Sakurai and/or Nintendo ask for Crash, there's a possibility Spyro also ends up within the negotiations somewhere. And perhaps the absolute dream idea of a trailer beginning mostly about Crash that in the middle of it transitions to a Spyro one too could conceivably happen.

And if it does, man wouldn't we all like to be flies on the wall for any Sony fans watching. Given the one chance Playstation All-Stars to have a Smash Bros. of it's owned failed. Partly because of failure to truly get some of the many characters that defined the Playstation at one point of time. Crash, Spyro, Cloud, and Snake (Even if Snake isn't happening ever again thanks to Konami)
 

supermariofan

Dry Bowser
Re: Smash Bros. Character Merit (Switch Edition)

Since Nintendo randomly decided to throw Hello Kitty and Shaun the Sheep in Mario Maker, what are the chances of seeing odd choices like that in Smash? I mean Sakurai pretty much broke his “one third party character per company” rule by adding Ryu.
 

SonicMario

Star Spirit
Re: Smash Bros. Character Merit (Switch Edition)

supermariofan said:
Since Nintendo randomly decided to throw Hello Kitty and Shaun the Sheep in Mario Maker, what are the chances of seeing odd choices like that in Smash? I mean Sakurai pretty much broke his “one third party character per company” rule by adding Ryu.
Iiiiiii'll just take this oppurtunity to talk about "4th Party" characters in general

4th Party Character/Goku/Mickey Mouse/Whoever else someone crazy may want in Smash

(First a bit of a disclaimer. 4th Party technically does not exist. It was just an easier term made up to use as a way to differentiate anybody who didn't originate from a video game then the 3rd Parties that became eligible for Smash Bros. after Snake was announced.)

My Level of Want

Er, while there may be a few I'd at least feel conflicted about depending on just how legendary the character is. I'd rather Smash be saved from this floodgate being opened. Smash being opened up to 3rd Parties was a natural progression for Smash to evolve into. While there are still Nintendo purists out there, nothing quite gets the hype of characters once deemed impossible being included with Nintendo's best. The question has now become where does the line end in terms of possible 3rd Party characters. Some of the many rules have been pushed back especially in Smash 4. Ryu proved a company could have more then one rep, Cloud meant the character didn't necessarily have to be famous on Nintendo systems, and Bayonetta probably opened up the floodgates to characters that aren't necessarily legends of gaming history even if that was a little bit of a special case since Bayonetta has become Nintendo exclusive and it was through the ballot. But does that necessarily mean now that someone from non-videogames is possible? I don't necessarily think so as there's still some decently popular Nintendo characters and some 3rd Parties that would be great fits before we end up being desperate enough to include a non-video game character.

Estimated Chance

Still at about... 0%. If we were to get one it'd be someone like Goku or Mickey. And the pain of getting the licenses around the world with characters like that would be absolute hell. Plus I think even Sakurai knows that's not the type of thing Smash should open the floodgates to. Smash is a Nintendo crossover fighter that has slowly transitioned into something that has the potential to be the one game to represent all sorts of gaming from the past, present, and future. There's enough potential with that alone before they end up being desperate enough to go into the uncharted territory of non-Video game characters. It would literally open a pandora's box of possibilities no matter where it went.

Main Game or DLC?

A 4th Party character isn't going to be negotiated for the Main Game. If it happened at all for Smash Switch. I'd think like it's the very last surprise before DLC is wrapped up. That way the floodgates don't entirely open until the next game in the series. Which would make it even funnier if Smash Switch turns out to be the last Smash game that Sakurai is a developer over. "Congratulations, here's Goku. I'm never working on Smash ever again!"



As for Mario Maker costumes meaning anything when it comes to Smash. I suppose it's time to get on the hype train for the Springboard to get in Smash then. If we run by Mario Maker logic even the spring is more likely then Daisy even.
 

supermariofan

Dry Bowser
Re: Smash Bros. Character Merit (Switch Edition)

Well...thanks for bringing up Mickey Mouse.....nothing like a (acid) trip down memory lane.
 

SonicMario

Star Spirit
Re: Smash Bros. Character Merit (Switch Edition)

Got a batch of new characters this time. 2 are from Mario related, 2 are from Zelda

Kamek

Type of Character: Newcomer
Franchise: Yoshi

My Level of Want

If Yoshi is to ever get a 2nd rep, Kamek is probably what I’d want most. I don’t think he’s entirely necessary. But I don’t think I would complain about more magic users.

Estimated Chance

I still think Yoshi’s just fine on his lonesome. A concern about Kamek coming in would be could be mistaken easily for a generic Magikoopa as there isn’t alot that differentiates him from all the Magikoopa enemies. Also poor Kamek has been passed over multiple times in Mario Kart of all series (He was skipped over in both Mario Kart 64 and Mario Kart 8 ), what chances does he have in Smash if even Mario Kart overlooks him?

Main Game or DLC?

Probably a Main Game choice. I can’t see him being someone they’d ask you to pay for.


Pauline

Type of Character: Newcomer
Franchise: Mario or Donkey Kong

My Level Of Want

This would be a pick that would outdo even the Rosalina reveal in terms of including a character that just recently got a boost in relevancy. Even if Pauline is the very first Mario gal. Could make for some interesting ideas for a moveset, you could borrow from the original Donkey Kong arcade game, the Mario Vs. Donkey Kong series via the Mini Marios, and of course they could even make her somewhat an Odyssey rep too. I think there is a creative ways to set up Pauline as a fighter. I’m just not entirely confident that her recent boost is enough. But then again, I said the same about Rosalina before she was confirmed. She could certainly be a dark horse candidate. There’d be some question on whether she’d be a Mario rep or a Donkey Kong rep. Most of her games involved Donkey Kong so it may lean towards that. But either way she’d be a surprise hardly anyone sees coming for either side of the coin.

Estimated Chance

I can’t see her exactly coming in yet. Maybe if we see her pop up in Mario spin-offs (She could be in Aces as an unlockable, who knows) or appears in a more significant role in say an Odyssey 2 she’d be up there. I won’t count Pauline completely out of it, as I mentioned she actually has a decent amount of history, and Sakurai has done much with less to pull from for other characters. But whether she is a Mario rep or a DK rep. She’ll have strong competition either way.

Main Game or DLC?

This is a bit of a toughie. So I’ll say Either/Or. If Pauline is in the game, there’s a possibility Sakurai was told that Pauline was going to return in some fashion in more games and maybe asked if a moveset could be made for her borrowing from her entire history plus Odyssey. On the other hand maybe he wasn’t briefed much in Pauline but later comes to the idea that Pauline could make for an interesting new character. And thus save her for a surprise Mario rep. I’m not sure she’s too profitable of a choice all things considered, but Pauline’s fanbase is no doubt going to grow after Odyssey. A former damsel-in-distress who is now a fully capable mayor of a city is the kind of character many would love nowadays. Developing further then arguably Peach has had throughout her entire history despite being the female character with the most appearances in gaming. Heck, Pauline was even included in some extra thing that was on the 3DS called Nintendo Starlets. Where her, Peach, Zelda, and Rosalina were all circling around. Guess which one still has yet to get in Smash?


Ganon (Beast/Pig Form)

Type of Character: Newcomer
Franchise: Legend of Zelda

My Level of Want

If the Zelda representation truly is restricted to just the Triforce 3 and alternate versions of them. It’s only fair that we get one for the King of Evil in the form of a big beast in Ganon. What I mean by that is Ganon’s appearance in the first Legend of Zelda and/or A Link Between Worlds. It could be the solution that those disappointed that Ganondorf is relegated to a slower, stronger Captain Falcon could be looking for. Having a big heavy trident would work wonders with a possibility for a moveset too.

Estimated Chance

A beast Ganon of any sort is one of those choices that aren’t going to be brought up too often but certainly a cool idea that comes out from being restricted to only the Triforce 3. It’s another possible dark horse pick I’d think. Imagine a battle of titans between 3 (Or even 4 if Ridley manages to make it) enormous Nintendo villains with Ganon, Bowser, and King K. Rool

Main Game or DLC?

Most likely a Main game choice as a Zelda DLC choice would likely be someone more requested.


Tetra/Toon Zelda

Type of Character: Newcomer
Franchise: Legend of Zelda

My Level of Want

This is a bit of a strange thing since Toon Zelda does have the ability to be unique with Tetra given some pirate moves of sorts. Though there is certainly the possibility they go with a bit of a lazy route and go with Toon Zelda to make her a smaller, faster clone. Much like Toon Link is to Link. Toon Zelda was a part of the Forbidden 7 for Brawl and is said to have had a Toon Shiek which might of been interesting to see but still pointed towards them making Toon Zelda the same as they did Toon Link which kinda makes her less desirable. Also for some reason a move more related to Phantom Hourglass which is a game with Toon Zelda was given as the replacement for the transformation for Regular Zelda in Smash 4. So some pretty odd stuff going on there with Zelda

Estimated Chance

She may have been considered back in the Brawl days but by now she may as well just stick to being a consideration. If Zelda and Shiek remain separated, she’s kinda already our 2nd Zelda.

Main Game or DLC?

Going to actually say Either/Or on this one. I think if Toon Zelda happens it may be a main game addition to beef up the Zelda roster but because they were a consideration at one point. Maybe Sakurai gets the idea to include her as an option at DLC to bring whatever ideas he had for Toon Zelda back in Brawl to life. Being an alternate of the Triforce 3 still helps her until it’s proven that characters outside of the 3 can make it.
 

MST3K

Donkey Kong
Forum Moderator
Re: Smash Bros. Character Merit (Switch Edition)

If you've got the time, I'd like to hear your thoughts on Marx from the Kirby series. He's my pipe dream character for the new Smash.
 

SonicMario

Star Spirit
Re: Smash Bros. Character Merit (Switch Edition)

Marx

Type of Character: Newcomer
Franchise: Kirby

My Level of Want

I’m not exactly a Kirby aficionado, but I do know Marx is probably one of the more well-known final bosses from the series. Harkening as far back as Kirby Super Star. To this day Sakurai seems to look at Super Star as his magnum opus for Kirby based on how much he’s referenced it in Smash So there’s a strong reason why some are looking at Marx as a possibility especially after Marx was included as playable in Star Allies. It’s certainly become another option other then Bandanna Dee that despite Dee’s status as the de facto 4th player Kirby Character has a more generic look to him compared to the 3 Kirby Characters already in Smash

Estimated Chance

I however think that Bandana Dee is still more likely should we get a fourth Kirby character. That said Marx is a good idea for if a 5th character enters the fray for Kirby for sure. I don’t know if Sakurai would do this in fear of provoking what’s been a reason it took until Brawl to increase the representation of in terms of his humility towards the Kirby series. If he does end up feeling a little greedy though it’s a possibility.

Main Game or DLC?

I’m going to say a DLC choice. I think the only way Marx makes it in the main game is if Sakurai chooses to include a 4th Kirby character but NOT Bandana Waddle Dee. But it’s doubtful if Sakurai even knew if they were going to bring back Mark in Star Allies since I think he didn’t work on that title. He’s a good candidate for DLC though. If Kirby characters get a DLC character, Marx is one of the few that would be fan service enough to sell off to Kirby fans I’d think.
 
Re: Smash Bros. Character Merit (Switch Edition)

Northern Verve said:
I can't exactly wage Rex's popularity and if there's any huge Xenoblade fans who could enlighten me on what the general consensus on Rex is. I would appreciate it to better understand where he stands.
People seem to be generally fine with him, but unless this is a Greninja/Roy type situation where they made the decision to add him to the roster before his game was released then I don't see him being in the base game. If he's getting in I'd think it'll be DLC or the smash game following Switch.

If they were dead set on adding another Xenoblade rep then they could add Elma from XCX. If Monosoft ends up going through with the XCX port to the Switch they were considering then it'd be good promotion for that.
 

NSY

Celestial Guide
Re: Smash Bros. Character Merit (Switch Edition)

I would to like to ask should Zelda get a newcomer what do you think are the most likely contenders. There are no stick out characters from breath of the wild but they have been calls for some of the Divine Beast champions to be added.
 

SonicMario

Star Spirit
Re: Smash Bros. Character Merit (Switch Edition)

NSY said:
I would to like to ask should Zelda get a newcomer what do you think are the most likely contenders. There are no stick out characters from breath of the wild but they have been calls for some of the Divine Beast champions to be added.
Based on what we've got so far. I only mainly have to say that it seems Zelda is stuck with only an alternate version of the Triforce 3 (Link, Zelda, Ganondorf). We got those 3 in Melee. Sheik is an alter ego of Zelda, Toon Link is another Link, A Toon Zelda was in the forbidden 7 for Brawl, and any other Zelda character that isn't one of the Triforce 3 either ended up as an assist trophy or less then that.

I think a character that could be both popular as well as still stick to this specific requirement is of course a Beast/Pig Ganon form. As of current, here's a tier list of the most likely Zelda characters. From most likely to least likely

Alternate Triforce 3 Tier: Toon Zelda/Tetra, Ganon

Recurring, but vastly inconsistent portrayals throughout the games compared to the Triforce 3: Impa

Assist Trophy Status: Midna, Ghirahim, Skull Kid

Only Popular in Japan: Tingle

Everyone Else.

Now maybe at least one of the Champions from Breath of the Wild could make it. But we see characters that were in only one game even if they were recent get passed on so often in Smash that's it's hard to see happening, Some of have even suggested that maybe the Guardians get involved in Zelda's BOTW moveset if it's revamped which could be interesting. Until something contradicts this, this is all I really got.
 

SonicMario

Star Spirit
With E3 over I can finally get to a bit of thoughts here.

First of all, I'm quite stoked that every single playable character in the series history is returning. I don't care if many of the things I've said before both in this thread and in the previous thread for Smash 4 are now null. I'm not upset at all Pichu and Young Link are back. Cause there's a pretty special reason for why everyone is back: Next year is the 20th anniversery of the franchise. What better way to help celebrate that then have everyone back no matter how improbable they seemed. I can throw merits out the window just this once because this is a pretty special occasion.

That said the newcomer speculation side of things has definitely been flipped upside down. No matter what, any more character reveals will be newcomers. No waiting to see if anybody is back because that's already set and done with. Sakurai even did say that because of the huge undertaking to bring everybody back, not to expect too many newcomers. That said I think there's room for at least 5 more unique or semi-clonish characters (That may or may not include Ridley and Inklings in that number) plus at least 2 more Echo Fighters other then Daisy. With DLC making up for the lack of Base Game newcomers later.

Now to get to the two characters we now know will be in the game

DAISY

I'll admit that I obviously got to eat crow from this. Albeit there is a bit of a caveat to this. Any arguments I made against Daisy was in regards to her being unique. If we had known beforehand that Echo Fighters was going to be a thing then Daisy certainly would of been seen as a higher possibility. Daisy did not take anyone's spot. You're free to dislike Daisy as an addition, much like I can maintain an opinion on Dark Pit who is also an echo fighter. But it should be understood that she did not take anybody's place simply because of her status. She's probably also so far the most well-known overall in terms of the mainstream of the 3 echo fighters with how many appearences she had in the Mario spin-off games.

I'll just say this to Waluigi fans. Chin up, Waluigi just had a unique body type that wouldn't be easy to make an echo fighter out of and that's why Daisy came first. The closest to Waluigi's height is probably Bayonetta, as amusing as it would be to see Waluigi dance around like she does, I doubt they give Bayo's moveset to Waluigi. And with the newcomer spots being likely a little limited compared to previous games, Waluigi just fell short in terms of giving much more needed reps to other series that sorely need it. Assuming the next game in the series isn't a reboot that puts the roster through a reckoning, Waluigi just may have his day yet.

If you're cheering for Toad, you should chin up as well. Regular Toad, as well as the Blue Toad from NSMB/3D World may not have a chance anymore. But Captain Toad thus far is still alive. If there are reveals in between now and the game's revealed. Look to next month as a window, or he could even be there in the full roster when the game releases ala a Bowser Jr. surprise. If Mario gets a UNIQUE newcomer for this Smash. Captain Toad is still the most likely. Albeit I will admit my optimism for him has decreased after E3.

RIDLEY

At last the too big memes can end, congrats to everyone who has pined for the day Ridley is finally playable in Smash. I'm not even sure if there's even much to say. So much has been talked about Ridley since the days of Brawl speculation that it hardly feels like anything else is needed to say other then a final sigh of relief that he's gotten in after all the torture Ridley for Smash fans have gone through. And better yet, Ridley looks awesome in action and I can't wait to get the chance to play as him when the game comes out. This is a momentous occasion. And maybe even a sign that this Smash is clearly geared to longtime fans of the series more then any game in the series both with this and every single playable character ever returning. Other fan favorites like K. Rool might have very well skyrocketed in probability. But either way, I welcome Ridley with open arms to Smash.


As with last time I will rank the merits of each of the newcomers. Though it's kinda obvious where this will be with just 3 characters thus far

1. Ridley
2. Inkling(/s)
3. Daisy

Even if Daisy was entirely unique, she'd probably be 3rd in this list anyway simply because of how much Ridley means to Metroid and Smash fans everywhere. And Inklings just being a smash (no pun intended) hit new IP that continues to grow more popular with a fun looking unique moveset. Daisy being an echo fighter only seals her place as 3rd out of these even more.
 

SonicMario

Star Spirit
Another direct, more characters to give merit rankings for! We got 5 characters in one direct. Granted only 2 were actually unique. But even the echoes were interesting.

However the additions of Echoes actually made me change a bit of the format for merit rankings. They will now be split between unique character merit and echo fighter merit. I think inherently anyway the unique characters will tower over the echoes because I do put into account how they’re implemented when deciding their merit. So even if an obscure unique character got in and a REALLY REALLY REALLY popular character that makes a whole lot of sense got in as an echo. The unique character would still rank higher. If you truly want it to kept at an overall sense then consider currently the echo fighters as spots #5-#8 in my rankings

But now to the rankings, in order of which they were revealed in the direct

SIMON BELMONT

This is definitely a pretty strong 3rd party inclusion. Castlevania certainly deserves recognition amongst some of the best NES titles. And Simon is even more clearly based on his original incarnation then his long-haired Redhead that more newer titles portrayed him as. He has a pretty faithful moveset and he brings in along some cool stuff including music, Dracula’s Castle as a stage, and also completes the wish of many for the entire video game protagonists that were featured in the Captain N show. (If you really want Captain N himself though now, just make a Mii fighter). Not much else I can say, I approve of this inclusion a lot.

RICHTER BELMONT

Now this is interesting, it was a big surprise that Castlevania is immediately getting two characters. Even more jarring, Richter has only one appearance on a Nintendo console. And that’s on the Wii virtual console for the port of Rondo of Blood. That’s literally it regarding Richter on Nintendo consoles. Even Cloud had more appearances on a Nintendo Console prior to his reveal*. And many who have stayed mostly close to Nintendo consoles had no idea who Richter even was. Though I think the main thing was is that apparently Richter is the most popular Belmont in Japan. Heck it almost feels like much of the representation is centered around Richter more then Simon with the stage and even his quote in his reveal heavily referencing Symphony of the Night which might I remind you has never been on a Nintendo console. From a pure Nintendo standpoint, this inclusion makes hardly any sense at all. Yet there really isn’t any backlash from what I see, though perhaps that’s mainly because he’s just an Echo and thus we know didn’t take too much development time. And also opens to the door to 3rd party franchises getting more then one rep. (Sonic fans actually highly expect Shadow now, and maybe even my most wanted Tails has more of a shot too). I don’t find myself hating Richter either, still from a pure objective standpoint so far he’s the worst merited character thus far. If I ranked these characters for how I like them I’d put him ahead of Daisy already, but from an objective standpoint Daisy has more of a reason to be in then Richter does. Richter’s cool in my eyes, just don’t be too mad about his ranking in this thread.

*Corrected. Apologies but Richter did actually have Dracula X which was a sort of port (Though certainly many differences) of Rondo on the SNES called Dracula X plus an optional boss and playable character in Portrait of Ruin on the DS. I don't think these are enough to raise him up the rankings. But it definitely made my Cloud reference inaccurate. Apologies from an outsider to Castlevania to all Castlevania fans out there.

CHROM

This might be odd to some. But I was actually smiling at this inclusion. Yes, it’s another Fire Emblem character. Yes it’s another anime sword user. And yes it’s a fourth Marth-like character. But I just think about how much he was done dirty during Smash 4. Even if you so dislike the whole notion of Fire Emblem’s getting so represented like it has. No character deserves the humiliation he got in that Robin/Lucina reveal trailer. I wouldn’t even wish that on some characters I may not be fond of getting in. The way he was done also is a game changer for Echoes, because while he’s listed as an echo of Roy. He’s also got some Ike moves. Meaning echoes now can be a hybrid of more then one character in the roster which again opens up the door to many more possibilities and probably helps the reception to Echo Fighters even more. Even besides all this, Awakening is still very popular and again it must be stressed it was what saved the franchise from dying. I also think Chrom seems to be quite the endearing character that even not having played much Fire Emblem, has him warmed up to many especially those who felt bad for him after the humiliation in Smash 4. Also now Bowser and Bowser Jr. are not the only father-child duo in Smash. Congratulations Chrom, you finally got your chance. And you can join Ridley as a Smash meme-killer

DARK SAMUS

Awwwwwww yeah. This is absolutely the best echo fighter inclusion yet. The Prime series gets much deserved representation, and Metroid representation in general doubles along with Ridley. I may very well use Dark Samus more then normal Power-suit Samus. The different animations with all the floating is also very slick. I;ve said before if there was a Dark *insert character in Smash name* that would actually get backing it was Dark Samus. I may have heavily disliked Dark Pit. But Dark Samus is a different story altogether. Metroid fans should be ecstatic with what they have now. After the awkward period after Other M. It’s now looking pretty good to be a Metroid fan right about now with not just Ridley and Dark Samus in Smash. But Prime 4 on the way.

KING K. ROOL

And with this, the “Big 3” that was decided upon in early Smash 4 speculation has been completed (That was Ridley, K. Rool, and Mewtwo). Donkey Kong finally gets more characters and it’s the big gator himself that was so wanted and seen as #1 amongst the many Poll gatherings of the Smash ballot. If Ridley and the Echoes weren’t signs enough this game was prioritizing fan service. This was the inclusion that made it finally set in stone that this game’s selections were entirely different from perhaps any previous Smash game. K. Rool might of not appeared in such a long time. But there is no doubt he is Donkey Kong’s own Bowser. And probably deserved to get in much sooner then he did. In terms of merit I think the only one who beats him this game is Ridley given I’ve always felt he was probably just ahead of him in both popularity not to mention Ridley does always seem to appear one way or another in Metroid games. But otherwise he towers above everyone else alongside Ridley, and that’s not just because they’re two of the biggest characters in the roster. Congratulations to the hard working K. Rool fans on finally bringing him back to Relevance. Perhaps we may see his grand return as the big bad for Donkey Kong whenever a new Donkey Kong game is announced.


Now for the ranking numbers.

UNIQUE RANKINGS

1. Ridley
2. King K. Rool
3. Simon Belmont

4. Inkling(/s)


ECHO FIGHTER RANKINGS

1. Dark Samus
2. Chrom

3. Daisy
4. Richter Belmont
 

SiFi

Benjamin Judd
Northern Verve said:
Richter has only one appearance on a Nintendo console. And that’s on the Wii virtual console for the port of Rondo of Blood. That’s literally it regarding Richter on Nintendo consoles. Even Cloud had more appearances on a Nintendo Console prior to his reveal. And many who have stayed mostly close to Nintendo consoles had no idea who Richter even was.
EXCUSE ME

Before the Virtual Console version, Rondo of Blood was already not-quite-remade for SNES as Dracula X (the first comparison that comes to mind that you'd understand is that it's like the differences between the genesis and master system/game gear versions of sonic 1, except still a little closer than that)

Then, in Portrait of Ruin for DS, he's an optional boss, an unlockable playable character, and has another cameo for good measure as part of the Greatest Five attack. When he's playable, his increased mobility from Symphony is further expanded upon with them finally giving him a proper double jump and a few extra moves based on unused sprites in the aforementioned game

and just for the hell of it here's a screenshot of a character based on him in a snes wrestling game. Point is, do your research.
 

SonicMario

Star Spirit
SiFi said:
Northern Verve said:
Richter has only one appearance on a Nintendo console. And that’s on the Wii virtual console for the port of Rondo of Blood. That’s literally it regarding Richter on Nintendo consoles. Even Cloud had more appearances on a Nintendo Console prior to his reveal. And many who have stayed mostly close to Nintendo consoles had no idea who Richter even was.
EXCUSE ME

Before the Virtual Console version, Rondo of Blood was already not-quite-remade for SNES as Dracula X (the first comparison that comes to mind that you'd understand is that it's like the differences between the genesis and master system/game gear versions of sonic 1, except still a little closer than that)

Then, in Portrait of Ruin for DS, he's an optional boss, an unlockable playable character, and has another cameo for good measure as part of the Greatest Five attack. When he's playable, his increased mobility from Symphony is further expanded upon with them finally giving him a proper double jump and a few extra moves based on unused sprites in the aforementioned game

and just for the hell of it here's a screenshot of a character based on him in a snes wrestling game. Point is, do your research.
Oopsies. Apologies.

I guess I did rush through what research I did on the Castlevania wiki and somehow managed to not click Portrait of Ruin while checking all the games he's listed on whether they were on Nintendo consoles. And I only looked at Rondo of Blood and didn't realize Dracula X was a thing.

Though I think a status as an optional boss and playable character doesn't move him much up my rankings. The Dracula X thing is something I admit I definitely got wrong. And I apologize for that. Though while apparently according to the wiki there's several differences with it and Rondo. It's fair to say it's at least based on that game and also seems to be less canon with the Castlevania timeline.

Still, I guess that does make my Cloud reference inaccurate. He's playable in two games that were on Nintendo consoles. That's definitely more then Cloud could of said before Smash 4. So again, I am sincerely sorry for getting that wrong.
 

SonicMario

Star Spirit
Moldomré said:
Not exactly a new character, but what if Mario receives a new moveset from Odyssey?
Already confirmed he isn't. He's just getting Odyssey costumes and Cappy is involved in one of his taunts. That's it though for Odyssey representation in terms of Mario as a fighter himself

supermariofan said:
Have you done Banjo and Kazooie?
Yes

Northern Verve said:

Banjo & Kazooie


Type of Character: 3rd Party Newcomer
Franchise: Banjo & Kazooie

My Level of Want

We all know about the reasons there is hype behind Banjo possibly being in Smash some day. Phil Spencer, a higher-up at Microsoft in a tweet during the Smash 4 DLC period said that if Nintendo contacted them about Banjo they'd absolutely do it. And to be fair, it might be more possible now then ever. As Minecraft is currently owned by Microsoft company yet it did just fine being on the Wii U and the Switch. The Switch version will even eventually have cross-play though not until later in the year. As an interesting note. Wii U and Switch minecraft versions also have access to some Microsoft character skins such as Master Chief, and yes, Banjo as well. So the closest we have on Banjo being back on Nintendo is through Minecraft. Though Minecraft skins is one thing, putting Banjo in Smash would be another story altogether. Especially interesting is that Banjo was a strong consideration back in Melee's development. But Rare being bought out likely prevented any chance of it happening. Could the stars align for it to finally happen this time though?

Estimated Chance

Despite Phil Spencer's thoughts on the matter it still might be a bit of a complicated affair. Sure Nintendo got some characters that would of fit just right with the Playstation All-Stars cast like Snake and Cloud. But both weren't technically Sony property. Rare is however now a part of Microsoft, so it's indeed that much more complicated for things to happen for Banjo to be cleared for Smash. It's not going to be an easy road. But no doubt there will be an internet explosion, perhaps the biggest since Sonic's reveal in Brawl. And under the circumstances might just be THE most break the internet style inclusion in Smash Bros. history. It would mean Smash Bros. has transcended past consoles wars of not just the past as Sonic and Cloud does, but also the present, and maybe could even be the ticket to video game companies being less black and white when it comes to special crossover projects. Obviously the urge for buisness will still to try to outsell the other companies but for even just a fleeting moment. One game where reps that are famous on all the major console makers can all be included can lead to some lines being blurred between fans of gaming. It'd be a glorious day for sure, but that's because it still feels like a bit of a pipe dream. But hey, at one point Sonic being in Smash must of felt like a pipe dream. And so did having Mario, Sonic, Megaman, Pac-Man, Ryu, and Cloud all in one official game. If Smash Switch is going to have that internet breaking moment that leaves everyone in awe of "How did this happen?! And why is it so awesome?!" once again, Banjo would be the character to do it.

Main Game or DLC

Absolutely DLC. I'm willing to be it's kinda too late for Banjo to get in immediately. The negotiations for Banjo may take a while. So DLC would definitely be the route taken. Especially since that's where the most out there characters came in for Smash 4 3rd Party wise. Ryu, Cloud, and Bayonetta all broke pre-established "rules" and if Banjo came in. "Owned by a competing console maker" will be just another on the list.
I suppose to give a bit of an update. I still think he's more likely to be DLC. But if Banjo was particularly high on the ballot and the negotiations were done back then there may be a slight chance Banjo-Kazooie could be the last unique newcomer announced to really end base game speculation with a bang. No matter who you're supporting, I think Banjo is the biggest deal left out of the big wants that would certainly both surprise and excite quite a bit of people. Banjo being owned by a competing console maker is probably a huge legal wall to overcome. But if there's someone working at Nintendo that can manage to do it, I'd have faith Sakurai could find a way given how much work he's really placed in licensing so much stuff for Ultimate.

While at the moment I think Simon is our final 3rd party until DLC happens. If there is still yet another 3rd party incoming (Not counting echoes BTW). I think Banjo is a candidate along with Rayman, or even Shantae. I still say don't count on it, but I wouldn't say it's impossible any longer. With how much is in this game already, I'm not underestimating Sakurai's will to please the fans this time around.

Monika said:
Based upon this leak, I'm curious what your thoughts are on Gardevoir and Gothitelle's inclusions. Obviously don't use the leak as a factor in your analysis, but I still want to hear about those two.
Quick disclaimer that I don't necessarily think this is real so of course I'm just going to go on both Pokemon on their own merits. There's a few oddities with that leak like saying Simon wasn't in, but it's Richter instead but we got both. Maybe if that particular fact was misconstrued then maybe. But the other thing that makes me doubt this is Nintendo and Sakurai now know to be careful about data mining in regards to Smash. So even if it was data mined, they'd likely make sure no hints of characters show up.

But anyway time to get to these Pokemon

Gardevoir

Type of Character: Newcomer
Franchise: Pokemon

My Level of Want


I think I've stated this before. But it was in the middle of Generation 3 or at least afterward where I kinda dropped interest in Pokemon. Most of my knowledge on Pokemon comes from the first 2 gens and I do have some degree of memory regarding some Generation 3 mons as well. And Gardevoir is certainly one of them. I think Gardevoir is one of the rare Pokemon that transcend their popularity even after their generation has long been outside the spotlight. Gardevoir still feels like a marketable pokemon. ...Granted some of it may be from the fact it's design is very much like a beautiful women in a dress and that may appeal to any Pokemon Rule 34 artists/fans. But even if that wasn't a factor you'd be ignorant to think that was the only reason Gardevoir is popular. It's a stand out psychic Pokemon that's stood the test of time, maybe not quite on a Mewtwo level but nonetheless has plenty of enduring fans and is still marketed in Pokemon given it got a Mega evolution and was playable in Pokken Tournament. Dare I'd say it'd probably be more hype then any Generation 7 inclusion that Gamefreak promotes a pokemon before they even know it's going to be popular (Which they're lucky that Greninja worked out) despite this game's focus being mainly on long requested characters. And I would believe it if they told us that Gardevoir was Top 10 or even Top 5 in the Ballot for highest requested Pokemon. I don't know if I could say if Gardevoir was #1 per se (Don't know who really could of been Number 1. Maybe Pokemon Trainer?) but I could potentially see Gamefreak/The Pokemon Company being shown who were the Top Pokemon voted. And instead of going with a Gen 7 choice (Which would continue the odd numbered generation curse in terms of getting a Pokemon playable in the game they'd be most relevant to) pick one that was highly requested and still being marketed to this day. And Gardevoir would certainly fit the bill.

Estimated Chance

It all depends on Gamefreak/The Pokemon Company. Do they prioritize a Pokemon character that's managed to stand the test of time since Generation 3? Or do they pull a Greninja by promoting a Gen 7 Pokemon and hope for the best that it becomes popular. I don't mean to put down all the Generation 7 possibilities but while they could get away with this much more with Smash 4 when many characters included were kind of promotional in some way (But still most of them certainly made for good inclusions) it may not look as good if Pokemon's the one character that's included out of pure meddling by a company rather then actual fan requests even if they luck out and happen to pick what would become one of the would be fan-favorites in a game where longtime fan favorites like Ridley and K. Rool are in the roster? I'm not saying Gardevoir is on the level of Ridley or K. Rool but in terms of popular Pokemon characters that have remained a consistent fanbase and marketing, Gardevoir would be a pretty good choice I think all things considered. Still, Generation 7 is the biggest hurdle Gardevoir is facing. And a company that disregards everything for whatever it's trying to market it now may just continue to buck the trend of only fan favorite choices just because they can. (Regardless if the leak is fake which it probably is, I think Gardevoir could still be in even if Gothitelle is ever deconfirmed)

Main Game or DLC?

If Gardevoir's playable, it's Main game for absolute sure. If it's not playable, Gardevoir's probably a pokeball pokemon once again.


Gothitelle

Type of Character: Newcomer/Potential Echo Fighter (I guess?)
Franchise: Pokemon

My Level of Want

I hardly know Gothitelle so this is gonna be short. It's some strange gothic lolita pokemon from the 5th generation that I don't know much about. And I here it's ranked amongst like somewhere in the 400th in terms of Japan popularity polls for Pokemon. So this inclusion would come out of nowhere since it's not a particularly popular or a relevant Pokemon. Unlike Gardevoir is has NOT stood the test of time and has been largely ignored ever since Generation 5. As much as I kind of criticized Gamefreak for how they put Pokemon in Smash in Gardevoir's merit rating, choosing a Gen 7 character would make way more sense then picking a random Pokemon like this just because they kind of have a similar body type to Gardevoir. Echo Fighters are supposed to still be somewhat popular characters, Gothitelle just isn't that.

Estimated Chance

Really low, again not very popular pokemon. Not really marketed recently. And heck while at first glance the body type is similar, there are a few decent similarities that might make it harder to justify it as a Gardevoir echo. The only thing Gothitelle achieves is having a Gen 5 rep so the first 6 generations all have at least one rep in Smash Ultimate. But that isn't a solid reason to include it.

Main Game or DLC?

I guess Main Game. Harder to see them ask us to PAY for Gothitelle.
 

SonicMario

Star Spirit
Another direct has passed! Only one new character, but it’s certainly an interesting one. It’s not exactly a longtime fan favorite like Ridley and K. Rool. It more falls in line with more recent all-stars like the Inklings. But regardless of the salt of those thinking it’d be all fan favorites the entire rest of the way it’s a well-deserved addition

ISABELLE

If you don’t think Isabelle deserves a playable spot in Smash. You’ve practically been living under a rock for quite a few years. Isabelle quickly became a new face of Animal Crossing surpassing that of Tom Nook, Resetti and the others. New Leaf was a huge success and Isabelle was the adorable assistant that warmed the hearts of all those who played the game. Soon enough Isabelle started being pushed heavily in any Animal Crossing advertisements. I suppose the most surprising thing is she turned out not to be an echo like people thought she would be. She’s more closer to a Brawl semi-clone like Lucas and Wolf. And to be honest, thank goodness. Echoes are fine and dandy, but even with stuff like Chrom. It’s pretty clear they hardly count as full fledged characters and Isabelle definitely is deserving of her own number and spot on the roster. I don’t care how much you may have wanted Geno, Skull Kid, or whatever else is considered a fan favorite request. Isabelle is a Nintendo All-Star whether you like it or not.

This also bodes well for some characters that were bordering on the fence of being echoes or semi-cloned/unique such as Dixie Kong who can now definitely still receive her famous flying hair technique. It’s also raised my personal hope for Tails to make it and won’t even have to bump Shadow out for an echo spot, could easily get in alongside Shadow sooner or later. Much of Sonic’s moveset combined with Dixie’s recovery should she be in? That’s perfect for Tails. Isabelle is also yet another upgraded Mii costume. May which I remind you that Tails got that Shadow didn’t. But anyway, time to place her in the merit rankings.

UNIQUE RANKINGS

1. Ridley
2. King K. Rool
3. Simon Belmont
4. Isabelle
5. Inklings

Obviously Isabelle isn’t going to have the grand merit of Ridley or K. Rool. Nor the 3rd party outreach of Simon. But she probably at least has an edge on the Inklings for Smash merit given Isabelle’s just been around longer even if she’s less unique moveset wise. I don’t mean any disrespect to Splatoon or the Inklings though. Animal Crossing is just a more tenured franchise and certainly worthy of more then one rep at this point and time. If Isabelle had still been an echo, she would still be below Inklings by default (And probably more merltable then Dark Samus so she would of been the #1 merited Echo). But I think it’s a good thing she’s not.
 

JAMESON YOU SLIME!!

Pay ya for what, standing there?
Northern Verve said:
Moldomré said:
Not exactly a new character, but what if Mario receives a new moveset from Odyssey?
Already confirmed he isn't. He's just getting Odyssey costumes and Cappy is involved in one of his taunts. That's it though for Odyssey representation in terms of Mario as a fighter himself
I know, but I just wanted to know what your thoughts would be if he HAD actually received that.
 
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