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In that case Toad should have gotten in instead.Isabelle said:
Smash Bros. Character Merit (Ultimate Edition)
- Thread starter SonicMario
- Start date
SonicMario
Star Spirit
- Thread starter
- #103
Isabelle said:
I've been seeing what Sakurai's been saying yeah. But nothing he's said has exactly changed my opinion. One of the things he said was that he didn't just want another hero for more variety but uh... there's many, many, more villainous choices then a Piranha Plant. More recently Sakurai has stated what most suspected why Piranha Plant was chosen for specifically the moveset and having to get a little more creative with the moves. But it's still some of his wording that I disagree with.
"In addition, Piranha Plant is a very well known character." Piranha Plant isn't a character, it's a recognizable obstacle and/or regular enemy.
It's almost just better to view it as the joke/meme/etc. inclusion, because trying to take it as seriously as any other fighter (Even the previous so-called joke/WTF characters in Smash have a reason they'd one-up the plant on merit) just makes it worse merit-wise.
SonicMario
Star Spirit
- Thread starter
- #105
The DK Emoji IRL said:
STEVE
Level of Want
Oh boy, it's that character that I see complained about everywhere who people would swear is the worst inclusion ever because of how much they find Minecraft overrated, it's fanbase annoying, and/or it's a threat to a certain sacred bear & bird duo
...And yet, I'd be perfectly ok with it. Granted I can't say it's a character I particularly WANT in Smash but yes, I would take Steve's inclusion in stride while almost the whole rest of the Smash Bros. corners of the internet goes nuts. Feel free to say how ugly and unfitting Steve's design for Smash is. But we have to keep in mind Minecraft's one of the most successful games ever. There's a reason Microsoft has put the game on everything including it's competitor's consoles where you're perfectly able to change to Master Chief skins for your character through DLC even on your Nintendo Switch. Minecraft has more outreach then any indie game (Though kind of hard to say Minecraft is Indie now, it certainly began as an Indie back when Notch was head of the game but it's in Microsoft's hands now and is selling merchandise and even online subscriptions specifically for the game). And if Steve is capable of bulding blocks on the stage it might make for some interesting fun on Smash Bros. maps. Hell, I'd be interesting in seeing a casual 8-player all Steve match to see what people could do with building blocks without necessarily trying to fight eachother. It's be fun to see something like that. If Steve is indeed coming, bring him on. He's very much an icon of modern gaming right now, I too would like to see Banjo come first but if he's coming to Smash at any point in history. Banjo may have to deal with either just not being relavent known or a package deal with Steve where Steve is for the younger and casual fans and Banjo is for the hardcore. Though I'm not sure about the likelihood of Microsoft getting half of the remaining Fighter Pass characters.
Estimated Chance
I do however feel that his chances are somewhat overstated. Yeah people have said he's inevitable because *insert potential insider/leaker* said this or that. But even for the ones like Verge that have gotten things correct about this game before, the Minecraft stuff has just strangely been the one thing still yet to appear. Now I don't blame Verge himself for possibly being wrong, he has multiple sources and not all of them trustworthy. It's possible that whoever's been telling him that Minecraft content is coming to Smash is not exactly truthful. I think Verge got a really good hand in the base game, he however does seem to be slipping in terms of DLC and/or outside Smash stuff (Such as believing the new zelda was not Link's Awakening related... oof). Microsoft also seems to be very buddy buddy which is definitely odd for current console competitors (I mean Xbox Live services will be offered on the Switch for crying out loud) though we can't be for sure if it will lead to any Smash inclusions for either Steve or even Banjo-Kazooie at this rate. If Microsoft does allow a character in Smash it will almost be certaintly Steve and/or Banjo-Kazooie. Steve on the somewhat more likely scale just because of Minecraft's popularity. But if a 2nd fighter's pass happens ever, I'd actually keep a look out for the bear and bird.
In short, I think Steve's still one to at least keep an eye on as a possibility. But I wouldn't consider it a near certainty like many of the characters Vergeben mentioned during the base game speculation period.
SonicMario
Star Spirit
- Thread starter
- #108
Isabelle said:
That's why I said base game speculation specifically (As in from the month or two before E3 all the way to November 1st). Joker's DLC. I know even in Base game Verge wasn't perfect (He never mentioned K. Rool though he did ask about him at some point) but he had a pretty good track record during the base game of Smash Ultimate otherwise. To say he didn't at one point pretty much get 90% of his claims right during that period is denial.
@SGoW I'll get to Arle sometime soon. Just wait a little longer
SonicMario
Star Spirit
- Thread starter
- #110
ARLE NADJA
My Level of Want
Only played a bit of Puyo Puyo. Most I've seen of Arle is renting Puyo Puyo Tetris on the Switch. Arle is yet another Sega owned character. So in some ways it's not exactly a character I'm all for because if it's still even possible to get more characters under Sega's ownership after we already have Sonic, Bayonetta, and Joker. I'd want them to give Sonic another character. Preferably Tails. I'd be all for Sega getting the "Too much Fire Emblem" treatment if we managed to get Tails. But I'd understand why they may want to push Arle instead. Puyo Puyo is pretty popular in Japan. Just not as much worldwide. (They recently released an eSports version back in October of last year. It's however in areas in or near Japan and not in the US or Europe). And it'd actually be a proper puzzle game rep rather then just Dr. Mario which doesn't really bring any puzzle stuff to his gameplay. So it'd definitely hit a good niche and I'd be interested how they implement a puzzle fighter.
Estimated Chance
I feel Arle's among the many Sega characters that just got any remaining hope they had for DLC dashed by Joker's inclusion. And even if there is to be yet another Sega character, it's not a sure thing she'd be next as maybe next time Sega gets another choice they actually do decide to get Sonic another character. Or there's other potential series like Yakuza or even another Atlus or Platinum owned character. Also regarding Puzzle characters, Nintendo does have one of it's own it could promote. That being Lip. However, she was made a Mii costume for the Swordfighters. Mii costume may be good signs for potential characters for the next game, but as for being promoted in the same game their mii costume came first seems a bit doubtful. So I'm not so sure why they'd include a 3rd party puzzle character before Lip
My Level of Want
Only played a bit of Puyo Puyo. Most I've seen of Arle is renting Puyo Puyo Tetris on the Switch. Arle is yet another Sega owned character. So in some ways it's not exactly a character I'm all for because if it's still even possible to get more characters under Sega's ownership after we already have Sonic, Bayonetta, and Joker. I'd want them to give Sonic another character. Preferably Tails. I'd be all for Sega getting the "Too much Fire Emblem" treatment if we managed to get Tails. But I'd understand why they may want to push Arle instead. Puyo Puyo is pretty popular in Japan. Just not as much worldwide. (They recently released an eSports version back in October of last year. It's however in areas in or near Japan and not in the US or Europe). And it'd actually be a proper puzzle game rep rather then just Dr. Mario which doesn't really bring any puzzle stuff to his gameplay. So it'd definitely hit a good niche and I'd be interested how they implement a puzzle fighter.
Estimated Chance
I feel Arle's among the many Sega characters that just got any remaining hope they had for DLC dashed by Joker's inclusion. And even if there is to be yet another Sega character, it's not a sure thing she'd be next as maybe next time Sega gets another choice they actually do decide to get Sonic another character. Or there's other potential series like Yakuza or even another Atlus or Platinum owned character. Also regarding Puzzle characters, Nintendo does have one of it's own it could promote. That being Lip. However, she was made a Mii costume for the Swordfighters. Mii costume may be good signs for potential characters for the next game, but as for being promoted in the same game their mii costume came first seems a bit doubtful. So I'm not so sure why they'd include a 3rd party puzzle character before Lip
SonicMario
Star Spirit
- Thread starter
- #111
Wow, Ill just say. That merit wise, both of the newcomers announced are pretty high up there. One may be particularly higher the other (Though perhaps fans in Japan will disagree with my and many others in the wests takes). But regardless, as someone who is neutral on both of these franchises. These are all well-deserved and definitely bring things back on the upswing after Newcomers have kind of gone a little bit downhill post-K. Rools release (No offense meant to Isabelle, Incineroar, or Joker. But itd be hard to say they match K. Rools hype)
Lets start with the lesser of the two. At least in the eyes of the West anyway, Im sure if I were born in Japan instead. Maybe the two characters hype here would be switched.
THE HERO (AKA Luminary/Eight/Erdrick/Solo)
We may have technically known a Dragon Quest character was coming as far back as January of this year. Though the expectation for a while that was going to be Erdrick and Erdrick alone. But what turned out happening is indeed a DQ character was added. But Erdrick isnt even the default, albeit he is kind of in a 2nd best situation considering hes the next different alt.
At first, it looked like Erdrick was getting Smash 4 Chromd by the newest Dragon Quest protagonist. But instead, they pull out multiple protagonist into one character that might actually multiply the merit then had Erdrick came in alone. Because from this, it feels like more of a representation of Dragon Quest as a whole. And while people can complain that its yet another anime (Hell, the art for Dragon Quest most notably being done by Akira DBZ Toriyama himself) swordsmen. The franchise definitely left its mark on gaming history, even if that history is much more appreciated back in Japan then it does in the West.
It doesnt help that we were kinda spoiled on this nearly a half a year and may have been better served showing us in the direct that had a big segment to the new game months ago especially since the main character was indeed the default for Smash. But perhaps either they didnt have the trailer ready and/or they wanted to make sure E3 would have at least more then one character to show. Which if thats the case was understandable.
When these heroes drop, I expect it to perhaps be the final nail in the coffin (If the spirit wasnt already that) for Geno as the Mii costume will probably come back. Though hopefully the content is more generous then with Final Fantasy and Cloud. But anyway, I;m sure there were many overjoyed japanese fans made happy with these characters inclusions. And while many of us in the west wont exactly share the same sentiment. Perhaps in time well come to find just what Japan sees in these characters that made them the video game equivalent of rock stars over there. I am certain to give them a shot.
BANJO-KAZOOIE
I would say I have no words for this (In a good way), but you know Im going to be super glowing about this inclusion that I may end up just saying too much.
Ill say it right now. This may not be just a really awesome inclusion, this might be the best merited inclusion of this games speculation period. Maybe even the most merited 3rd party besides perhaps Mega Man and maybe Pac-Man too. And keep in mind, Ive hardly played much of the Banjo Kazoo games. Most I remember is renting Tooie for a short while and most I remember was Bottles death at the start. This isnt coming from a biased, longtime Banjo-Kazooie fan. Even from a neutral perspective I understand what it means to have Banjo back alongside many Nintendo characters for the first time since the N64 era as well as the many hardships that the franchises fans have gone through ever since Rare was purchased by Microsoft. Which has been and funnily enough still is supposed to be a competing console maker.
Just really think about this. Had Microsoft never bought Rare, Banjo might of been in Smash as early as Melee or at the very least came in for Brawl. It feels like a long lost son had reunited with his family after 2 2 decades of being apart, because their adopted family has never allowed them to see or even talk with the old family until recently.
Let me just list down the comparisons of why Banjo is one of the biggest 3rd party inclusions (Again not THE biggest. Megaman and Pac-Man I feel still have a huge leg up on that department in some way or another). Despite at its surface, being what may be an obscure franchise to newer gamers by now.
Snake was our very first 3rd party character which was mind-blowing for Smash on its own. Yet despite Metal Gear having a history that started out on Nintendo. At the time Snake made it in Smash, Metal Gear felt more closely associated with Sony more then Nintendo. Not that I dont think Snake wasnt fun to have, I was happy among many others when he showed up in the Everyone is Here trailer. But as more and more 3rd parties have shown up. Hes still kind of on the lesser half of the 3rd party characters despite being the one that opened the window for all of them in the first place.
Sonic, while hell always be very dear to my heart. When he got in Smash, he had already been 3rd party for about 7 years. He was very possible, and he wasnt ever as dormant as Banjo has been. Always love that Sonic was the first 3rd party to get in from legit popular demand. But even as a Sonic fan. There are 3rd parties that outrank him on Merit. Megaman, Pac-Man, and with how centric to Nintendo Banjo had been at one point. I think Banjo is higher then Sonic on merit as well.
Ryus a little harder to argue since he did help put fighting games on the map and it all started on Nintendo. Though out of the mainline games (As in not counting ports and/or just numbered titles), they havent released them onto Nintendo systems since Street Fighter II. Hell, Street Fighter got on the Dreamcast before anything on the N64 or Gamecube arrived. Ryus still very much a worthy addition, but compared to fellow Capcom brethren Mega Man. He just kind of felt like the Nintendo centric 3rd party merit has decreased over the years instead of generally remaining stable like Mega Man has. Maybe thats a tad hypocritical since Banjo has had appearances not on Nintendo consoles over the years what with the maligned Nuts and Bolts on Xbox 360 and the guest appearance in the first Sonic and Sega All-Stars Racing exclusive to the 360 version. But I dont know, Banjo-Kazooie just seemed to keep the feeling that they were very much Nintendo characters. I guess in a way never getting Three-ie has kind of helped that feeling, like they cant get a proper game or big reappearance without it being on a Nintendo platform.
Clouds a little easier to argue being that of course Cloud himself at least until FF7 finally found its way on a Nintendo system via the Switch release was always kind felt like he was with Sony. Though the Final Fantasy series as a whole has more merit for sure then Banjo. That said these two are pretty similar inclusions in some ways. Going back to the family analogy from before, Clouds like a son that after a nasty divorce between Square and Nintendo, left off and had huge success on his own elsewhere has finally reconciled. And this is also kind of the closest well really get to feeling like Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft all banded together to bring some of these characters together. Sony didnt exactly play a part of this at all. Snake, Cloud, Joker, and arguably Ryu are all characters that probably would increase the star power if there was ever another Playstation All-Stars attempt. Yet theyre here in a Nintendo exclusive fighter. And here we have Microsoft fully playing along and allowing Banjo to appear here. Microsofts even in the long credits that will be on the title screen and everything! Which is surreal on its own. They still want to sell more Xbox ones and exclusive games for said systems. They have a new system coming soon that will inevitably try to butt heads with Nintendos in competition over consumers. Yet through what seems to be pure magic and willpower on both sides of the deal, we still managed to get Banjo back on a Nintendo system. And in some ways, Banjo probably has Cloud to at least partly thank for it. Cloud feeling very much like the symbol of a missed opportunity back in the mid-90s for Nintendo. Yet hes found his way to Nintendo. Even if of course his remake still isnt going to be anywhere near Nintendo. At least not yet anyway.
Simon may actually be another case that is arguably higher then Banjo. Where Castlevania is more closer to a Mega Man kind of inclusion where it just like a fiddle amongst many of the classic NES characters. Of course you could also say because Simon isnt always the protagonist, Banjo has more clout to his own franchise. But thats probably being a bit disingenuous. Just a bit of a spoiler warning Im still probably going to have Banjo higher in the rankings later. But I think theres a few outlying factors in Banjos favor that'll explain why when I get there.
And I dont think I even need to go into detail why I think Banjo outranks both Bayonetta and Joker.
Though it kind of also goes a bit further then just all the 3rd parties. Banjo might be the most merited Ultimate newcomer thus far as well. Amongst the first party cast, only Ridley and K. Rool are his competition for the top spot.
Starting with K. Rool, they are very similar in that both are very much characters that are synonymous with Rares legacy. Though I look at it like this. Banjo is the main character of his own franchise, while K. Rools the villain of Donkey Kongs. In most cases, I think a new franchise should have more merit then an additional rep (Though general age of the character and/or franchise may make this vary) from an already represented franchise even in cases of K. Rool having been one of, if not the most requested newcomer in the ballot. Maybe thats a little hypocritical since I still have K. Rool above Simon. But one of the factors I get into ranking is how much the general Smash fanbase has supported them. Not saying thats the only factor, like if Geno ever got in this game he wouldnt immediately be at the top just because hes had this huge cult following since Brawl (Id still probably at least put him above Isabelle at least as Id count Geno as kind of the legacy character of the Mario RPGs, but below Simon for sure). Another example regarding new franchises vs. more reps of already represented franchise, imagine if Tails got in who is my most wanted after Sonic. Id probably do a joke ranking at first where I immediately put him on top. But on the actual honest ranking, Id probably put him where Geno would be too. Below Simon, but above Isabelle. Regardless, its awesome to have both these beloved characters that were designed by Rare back in full glory in Smash. Banjos trailer being like a sequel to K. Rools was very appropriate.
And now as for Ridley. Honestly copy and paste a few things I said during K. Rools. Ridleys an additional Metroid character. While Banjo is his own beast per se. Banjo does have a similarity with Ridley in they seem to be both characters people have wanted to play as since Melee. Just because of legalities, Banjo has felt like he was impossible. Even more so then the dreaded size arguments that Ridley has gone through over the years. I do think theres probably a fair share of quiet Banjo fans that have submitted to Banjo never happening all because of Microsofts hold on the franchise, so while they have Banjo in their hopes and dreams. They generally flocked to other characters. But perhaps a strong showing at the ballot, willing partners on Microsofts side like Phil Spencer, and Microsoft seeing the dollar signs in their eyes of Smash DLC. Really brought Banjo to the limelight here.
And its that seeming difficulty and impossibility that I think really brings Banjo over the top here. Banjo is a character that might of gotten in as far back as Melee, he was even mentioned in the old polls. Microsoft buying out Rare changed things immensely in an unfortunate way for many fans of the bear and bird duo. Aside from a strange GBA game, there wasnt much in store for the franchise until the Xbox 360 era where the fanbase was graced with Nuts and Bolts. Which is best summed up by a certain JonTron reaction.
After that, its just remained dormant under Microsofts watch aside from an aforementioned appearance in the first Sonic and Sega All-Stars Racing game. Which was cool for certain, but still not exactly a big return that the franchises old fans have wanted. It wasnt just that Banjo was owned by Microsoft, it was also because he was generally neglected that resulted in people thinking he was an impossibility. Like even if Microsoft did agree to let a character in, there was talk that they may prefer say Master Chief for a full mind blow or even Minecrafts Steve (Which I reiterate, I wouldnt have had such a bad reaction to it myself. But its what most Banjo fans were fearing) simply because it looked like they wouldnt care.
But then what sounded like a miracle came during the time for Smash 4s DLC period. Phil Spencer, the head of Xbox. Gave his consent.
Though even at that time it still felt a little too good to be true. Sure Phil would say that, but if Banjo still never made it. Itd only go back in history as among the many companies who would say as part of a marketing ploy saying that theyd like their characters in Smash. But never actually even gets that far. (Though to fair, that did kind of get us the Shovel Knight assist trophy and Shantae spirits). But it must of had an impact, because as it turned out this Ballot was more so for Ultimate more then it was for Smash 4. I just think the whole deal with Microsoft definitely had to make it wait for DLC though.
Regardless, just think about the perspective here. Nintendo made a deal with a company that is in outright competition with them for consumers. Again, Microsoft is still trying to sell Xboxes. And again, Microsoft plans to continue making new consoles in the future. Because of this. Banjo getting in Smash feels closer to if Sonic had gotten in the first Smash Bros. or even Melee. Fresh off the rivalry between the two companies back in the early 90s. Yet somehow whether thats through the sheer prestige of Sakurai, the Smash Bros. franchise as a whole, and/or just very willing partners on both side of the negotiating table. They brought back on what was surely a very requested character that doesnt even have any new games coming that would be profitable to market yet for Microsoft unless you count Rare Replay which are just ports of the games. And a long-lost Nintendo character that has finally at least for this one game, come back home where many fans who grew up with a Nintendo 64 was waiting for them.
I very much heartily welcome Banjo & Kazooie to Smash Bros. The most ultimate newcomer of Smash Ultimates additions.
And now finally the rankings. Hero just manages to jump over Simon for representing multiple generations of Dragon Quest history. As well as Dragon Quest itself being an influential franchise on gaming as a whole for JRPGs. Characters like Cloud and Shulk have a lot to thank Dragon Quest for. But where they kind of falter is how they werent exactly characters that popped up a lot in terms of Smash choices compared to the likes of Ridley and K. Rool. Though its very possible that the Japanese side of the ballot had many Dragon Quest characters requested and thats how The Hero came to have multiple iterations of the protagonist.
Meanwhile, Ive kind of already said enough about Banjo. Has been a want since Melee, is a brand new franchise, and the sheer perceived difficulty and the return of a character that has been pretty dormant for years just amplify this to huge levels that somehow bring this above both the end of the Too Big memes and perhaps the most requested first party Newcomer from the ballot. Banjos the type of inclusion that reminds me again why I love awaiting who the next Smash character will be. I may hit bumps and falls along the way such as with Dark Pit, or Piranha Plant. But at the end of the day, Smash still provides us with some of the best and most welcome inclusions ever. Not every inclusion will hit its mark with everybody. But when you get a character that truly, truly, belongs or at least you really, really wanted. For longtime gamers, theres almost nothing better then that feeling.
UNIQUE RANKINGS
#1. Banjo-Kazooie
#2. Ridley
#3. King K. Rool
#4. The Hero
#5. Simon Belmont
#6. Isabelle
#7. Inklings
#8. Incineroar
#9. Joker
ECHO FIGHTER RANKINGS
#1. Ken
#2. Dark Samus
#3. Chrom
#4. Daisy
#5. Richter Belmont
SONICMARIO.EXE IS BROKEN
#WHO CARES? BANJO IS HERE!. Piranha Plant
Lets start with the lesser of the two. At least in the eyes of the West anyway, Im sure if I were born in Japan instead. Maybe the two characters hype here would be switched.
THE HERO (AKA Luminary/Eight/Erdrick/Solo)
We may have technically known a Dragon Quest character was coming as far back as January of this year. Though the expectation for a while that was going to be Erdrick and Erdrick alone. But what turned out happening is indeed a DQ character was added. But Erdrick isnt even the default, albeit he is kind of in a 2nd best situation considering hes the next different alt.
At first, it looked like Erdrick was getting Smash 4 Chromd by the newest Dragon Quest protagonist. But instead, they pull out multiple protagonist into one character that might actually multiply the merit then had Erdrick came in alone. Because from this, it feels like more of a representation of Dragon Quest as a whole. And while people can complain that its yet another anime (Hell, the art for Dragon Quest most notably being done by Akira DBZ Toriyama himself) swordsmen. The franchise definitely left its mark on gaming history, even if that history is much more appreciated back in Japan then it does in the West.
It doesnt help that we were kinda spoiled on this nearly a half a year and may have been better served showing us in the direct that had a big segment to the new game months ago especially since the main character was indeed the default for Smash. But perhaps either they didnt have the trailer ready and/or they wanted to make sure E3 would have at least more then one character to show. Which if thats the case was understandable.
When these heroes drop, I expect it to perhaps be the final nail in the coffin (If the spirit wasnt already that) for Geno as the Mii costume will probably come back. Though hopefully the content is more generous then with Final Fantasy and Cloud. But anyway, I;m sure there were many overjoyed japanese fans made happy with these characters inclusions. And while many of us in the west wont exactly share the same sentiment. Perhaps in time well come to find just what Japan sees in these characters that made them the video game equivalent of rock stars over there. I am certain to give them a shot.
BANJO-KAZOOIE
I would say I have no words for this (In a good way), but you know Im going to be super glowing about this inclusion that I may end up just saying too much.
Ill say it right now. This may not be just a really awesome inclusion, this might be the best merited inclusion of this games speculation period. Maybe even the most merited 3rd party besides perhaps Mega Man and maybe Pac-Man too. And keep in mind, Ive hardly played much of the Banjo Kazoo games. Most I remember is renting Tooie for a short while and most I remember was Bottles death at the start. This isnt coming from a biased, longtime Banjo-Kazooie fan. Even from a neutral perspective I understand what it means to have Banjo back alongside many Nintendo characters for the first time since the N64 era as well as the many hardships that the franchises fans have gone through ever since Rare was purchased by Microsoft. Which has been and funnily enough still is supposed to be a competing console maker.
Just really think about this. Had Microsoft never bought Rare, Banjo might of been in Smash as early as Melee or at the very least came in for Brawl. It feels like a long lost son had reunited with his family after 2 2 decades of being apart, because their adopted family has never allowed them to see or even talk with the old family until recently.
Let me just list down the comparisons of why Banjo is one of the biggest 3rd party inclusions (Again not THE biggest. Megaman and Pac-Man I feel still have a huge leg up on that department in some way or another). Despite at its surface, being what may be an obscure franchise to newer gamers by now.
Snake was our very first 3rd party character which was mind-blowing for Smash on its own. Yet despite Metal Gear having a history that started out on Nintendo. At the time Snake made it in Smash, Metal Gear felt more closely associated with Sony more then Nintendo. Not that I dont think Snake wasnt fun to have, I was happy among many others when he showed up in the Everyone is Here trailer. But as more and more 3rd parties have shown up. Hes still kind of on the lesser half of the 3rd party characters despite being the one that opened the window for all of them in the first place.
Sonic, while hell always be very dear to my heart. When he got in Smash, he had already been 3rd party for about 7 years. He was very possible, and he wasnt ever as dormant as Banjo has been. Always love that Sonic was the first 3rd party to get in from legit popular demand. But even as a Sonic fan. There are 3rd parties that outrank him on Merit. Megaman, Pac-Man, and with how centric to Nintendo Banjo had been at one point. I think Banjo is higher then Sonic on merit as well.
Ryus a little harder to argue since he did help put fighting games on the map and it all started on Nintendo. Though out of the mainline games (As in not counting ports and/or just numbered titles), they havent released them onto Nintendo systems since Street Fighter II. Hell, Street Fighter got on the Dreamcast before anything on the N64 or Gamecube arrived. Ryus still very much a worthy addition, but compared to fellow Capcom brethren Mega Man. He just kind of felt like the Nintendo centric 3rd party merit has decreased over the years instead of generally remaining stable like Mega Man has. Maybe thats a tad hypocritical since Banjo has had appearances not on Nintendo consoles over the years what with the maligned Nuts and Bolts on Xbox 360 and the guest appearance in the first Sonic and Sega All-Stars Racing exclusive to the 360 version. But I dont know, Banjo-Kazooie just seemed to keep the feeling that they were very much Nintendo characters. I guess in a way never getting Three-ie has kind of helped that feeling, like they cant get a proper game or big reappearance without it being on a Nintendo platform.
Clouds a little easier to argue being that of course Cloud himself at least until FF7 finally found its way on a Nintendo system via the Switch release was always kind felt like he was with Sony. Though the Final Fantasy series as a whole has more merit for sure then Banjo. That said these two are pretty similar inclusions in some ways. Going back to the family analogy from before, Clouds like a son that after a nasty divorce between Square and Nintendo, left off and had huge success on his own elsewhere has finally reconciled. And this is also kind of the closest well really get to feeling like Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft all banded together to bring some of these characters together. Sony didnt exactly play a part of this at all. Snake, Cloud, Joker, and arguably Ryu are all characters that probably would increase the star power if there was ever another Playstation All-Stars attempt. Yet theyre here in a Nintendo exclusive fighter. And here we have Microsoft fully playing along and allowing Banjo to appear here. Microsofts even in the long credits that will be on the title screen and everything! Which is surreal on its own. They still want to sell more Xbox ones and exclusive games for said systems. They have a new system coming soon that will inevitably try to butt heads with Nintendos in competition over consumers. Yet through what seems to be pure magic and willpower on both sides of the deal, we still managed to get Banjo back on a Nintendo system. And in some ways, Banjo probably has Cloud to at least partly thank for it. Cloud feeling very much like the symbol of a missed opportunity back in the mid-90s for Nintendo. Yet hes found his way to Nintendo. Even if of course his remake still isnt going to be anywhere near Nintendo. At least not yet anyway.
Simon may actually be another case that is arguably higher then Banjo. Where Castlevania is more closer to a Mega Man kind of inclusion where it just like a fiddle amongst many of the classic NES characters. Of course you could also say because Simon isnt always the protagonist, Banjo has more clout to his own franchise. But thats probably being a bit disingenuous. Just a bit of a spoiler warning Im still probably going to have Banjo higher in the rankings later. But I think theres a few outlying factors in Banjos favor that'll explain why when I get there.
And I dont think I even need to go into detail why I think Banjo outranks both Bayonetta and Joker.
Though it kind of also goes a bit further then just all the 3rd parties. Banjo might be the most merited Ultimate newcomer thus far as well. Amongst the first party cast, only Ridley and K. Rool are his competition for the top spot.
Starting with K. Rool, they are very similar in that both are very much characters that are synonymous with Rares legacy. Though I look at it like this. Banjo is the main character of his own franchise, while K. Rools the villain of Donkey Kongs. In most cases, I think a new franchise should have more merit then an additional rep (Though general age of the character and/or franchise may make this vary) from an already represented franchise even in cases of K. Rool having been one of, if not the most requested newcomer in the ballot. Maybe thats a little hypocritical since I still have K. Rool above Simon. But one of the factors I get into ranking is how much the general Smash fanbase has supported them. Not saying thats the only factor, like if Geno ever got in this game he wouldnt immediately be at the top just because hes had this huge cult following since Brawl (Id still probably at least put him above Isabelle at least as Id count Geno as kind of the legacy character of the Mario RPGs, but below Simon for sure). Another example regarding new franchises vs. more reps of already represented franchise, imagine if Tails got in who is my most wanted after Sonic. Id probably do a joke ranking at first where I immediately put him on top. But on the actual honest ranking, Id probably put him where Geno would be too. Below Simon, but above Isabelle. Regardless, its awesome to have both these beloved characters that were designed by Rare back in full glory in Smash. Banjos trailer being like a sequel to K. Rools was very appropriate.
And now as for Ridley. Honestly copy and paste a few things I said during K. Rools. Ridleys an additional Metroid character. While Banjo is his own beast per se. Banjo does have a similarity with Ridley in they seem to be both characters people have wanted to play as since Melee. Just because of legalities, Banjo has felt like he was impossible. Even more so then the dreaded size arguments that Ridley has gone through over the years. I do think theres probably a fair share of quiet Banjo fans that have submitted to Banjo never happening all because of Microsofts hold on the franchise, so while they have Banjo in their hopes and dreams. They generally flocked to other characters. But perhaps a strong showing at the ballot, willing partners on Microsofts side like Phil Spencer, and Microsoft seeing the dollar signs in their eyes of Smash DLC. Really brought Banjo to the limelight here.
And its that seeming difficulty and impossibility that I think really brings Banjo over the top here. Banjo is a character that might of gotten in as far back as Melee, he was even mentioned in the old polls. Microsoft buying out Rare changed things immensely in an unfortunate way for many fans of the bear and bird duo. Aside from a strange GBA game, there wasnt much in store for the franchise until the Xbox 360 era where the fanbase was graced with Nuts and Bolts. Which is best summed up by a certain JonTron reaction.
After that, its just remained dormant under Microsofts watch aside from an aforementioned appearance in the first Sonic and Sega All-Stars Racing game. Which was cool for certain, but still not exactly a big return that the franchises old fans have wanted. It wasnt just that Banjo was owned by Microsoft, it was also because he was generally neglected that resulted in people thinking he was an impossibility. Like even if Microsoft did agree to let a character in, there was talk that they may prefer say Master Chief for a full mind blow or even Minecrafts Steve (Which I reiterate, I wouldnt have had such a bad reaction to it myself. But its what most Banjo fans were fearing) simply because it looked like they wouldnt care.
But then what sounded like a miracle came during the time for Smash 4s DLC period. Phil Spencer, the head of Xbox. Gave his consent.
Though even at that time it still felt a little too good to be true. Sure Phil would say that, but if Banjo still never made it. Itd only go back in history as among the many companies who would say as part of a marketing ploy saying that theyd like their characters in Smash. But never actually even gets that far. (Though to fair, that did kind of get us the Shovel Knight assist trophy and Shantae spirits). But it must of had an impact, because as it turned out this Ballot was more so for Ultimate more then it was for Smash 4. I just think the whole deal with Microsoft definitely had to make it wait for DLC though.
Regardless, just think about the perspective here. Nintendo made a deal with a company that is in outright competition with them for consumers. Again, Microsoft is still trying to sell Xboxes. And again, Microsoft plans to continue making new consoles in the future. Because of this. Banjo getting in Smash feels closer to if Sonic had gotten in the first Smash Bros. or even Melee. Fresh off the rivalry between the two companies back in the early 90s. Yet somehow whether thats through the sheer prestige of Sakurai, the Smash Bros. franchise as a whole, and/or just very willing partners on both side of the negotiating table. They brought back on what was surely a very requested character that doesnt even have any new games coming that would be profitable to market yet for Microsoft unless you count Rare Replay which are just ports of the games. And a long-lost Nintendo character that has finally at least for this one game, come back home where many fans who grew up with a Nintendo 64 was waiting for them.
I very much heartily welcome Banjo & Kazooie to Smash Bros. The most ultimate newcomer of Smash Ultimates additions.
And now finally the rankings. Hero just manages to jump over Simon for representing multiple generations of Dragon Quest history. As well as Dragon Quest itself being an influential franchise on gaming as a whole for JRPGs. Characters like Cloud and Shulk have a lot to thank Dragon Quest for. But where they kind of falter is how they werent exactly characters that popped up a lot in terms of Smash choices compared to the likes of Ridley and K. Rool. Though its very possible that the Japanese side of the ballot had many Dragon Quest characters requested and thats how The Hero came to have multiple iterations of the protagonist.
Meanwhile, Ive kind of already said enough about Banjo. Has been a want since Melee, is a brand new franchise, and the sheer perceived difficulty and the return of a character that has been pretty dormant for years just amplify this to huge levels that somehow bring this above both the end of the Too Big memes and perhaps the most requested first party Newcomer from the ballot. Banjos the type of inclusion that reminds me again why I love awaiting who the next Smash character will be. I may hit bumps and falls along the way such as with Dark Pit, or Piranha Plant. But at the end of the day, Smash still provides us with some of the best and most welcome inclusions ever. Not every inclusion will hit its mark with everybody. But when you get a character that truly, truly, belongs or at least you really, really wanted. For longtime gamers, theres almost nothing better then that feeling.
UNIQUE RANKINGS
#1. Banjo-Kazooie
#2. Ridley
#3. King K. Rool
#4. The Hero
#5. Simon Belmont
#6. Isabelle
#7. Inklings
#8. Incineroar
#9. Joker
ECHO FIGHTER RANKINGS
#1. Ken
#2. Dark Samus
#3. Chrom
#4. Daisy
#5. Richter Belmont
SONICMARIO.EXE IS BROKEN
#WHO CARES? BANJO IS HERE!. Piranha Plant
YoshiFlutterJump
Power Star
- MarioWiki
- YoshiFlutterJump
I must say, Banjo & Kazooie was a pretty dang amazing reveal. I mean, I have literally no history with his games, but knowing just how much of a dream come true that was for many people...I fully agree with what you said. Truly the most ultimate newcomer for Ultimate yet.
J-Yoshi64
Always remembering Walkazo
The answer in a lengthy Twitter thread.Northern Verve said:
SonicMario
Star Spirit
- Thread starter
- #114
Now that we have a bit of a better look at what's being chosen for DLC. I thought I'd put up every character I've given merit rating in this thread thus far (Besides those who were confirmed of course).
Basically, the choices have made me more sure of a few things. Such as Spirits may in fact be signs the character is not in the fighter pass. However there is at least the catch that if there is ever a 2nd season of the fighter pass or there are individual characters added outside of the pass like Piranha Plant was. That they'd certainly be back on the table. Another note is I think they'll generally be all 3rd party, and the only exceptions 1st party wise may be if it's a Corrin situation where it's a new game. Though at the very least I don't think it would be Three Houses this time. It'd probably be a Gen 8 Pokemon most likely.
All in all, this practically purges alot of the characters I covered in this thread. And not even like a Thanos half-and-half kind of deal. Like literally only a few have a legit chance. Granted it's not like I've covered every single possible character and these few are the obvious choices. You have stuff like Phoenix Wright, Dante, another Namco rep and many more that still have a legit shot at being among the final two on this pass. For anyone hoping for more 1st party characters or worthy secondary 3rd parties and/or indies. It's looking pretty grim.
Strong Possibility
Dragonborn or Doomguy (Pretty much a Besthesda rep in general Im meaning)
Crash Bandicoot
Still have a chance even if Small
Sans
Okami
Sora
Monokuma
Spyro
Reimu
Arle Nadja
Spirit (May come if theres more outside this first Fighter Pass, but for now Doubt it)
Rayman
Wonder Red
Chorus Kids
Dixie Kong
Celica
Stunt Racer
Fawful
Paper Mario
Balloon Fighter
Impa
Dimentio
Captain Toad
Shantae
Dr. Eggman
Kamek
Pauline
Tetra/Toon Zelda
Bandana Dee
The one Assist Trophy Exception (If it happens at all, it will be just him)
Waluigi
Mii Costume (Even unlikelier then if they were just a spirit but not quite as dead in chances as an Assist)
Rex
Chibi-Robo
Tails
Geno (Not confirmed per se, but I feel like we all know its coming as soon as DQ Hero drops)
Chocobo (Same with Geno)
Steve (Again not confirmed, but I feel like this might be where the rumored Minecraft content possibly comes in)
Assist Trophy/Pokemon (Dead as a doornail)
Takamaru
Shovel Knight
Spring Man
Issac
Bomberman
Ashley
Gardevoir
Incineroar Already Has The Gen 7 Spot
Decidueye
Boss
Marx
Never Released in Japan Tier
Mike Jones
Basically, the choices have made me more sure of a few things. Such as Spirits may in fact be signs the character is not in the fighter pass. However there is at least the catch that if there is ever a 2nd season of the fighter pass or there are individual characters added outside of the pass like Piranha Plant was. That they'd certainly be back on the table. Another note is I think they'll generally be all 3rd party, and the only exceptions 1st party wise may be if it's a Corrin situation where it's a new game. Though at the very least I don't think it would be Three Houses this time. It'd probably be a Gen 8 Pokemon most likely.
All in all, this practically purges alot of the characters I covered in this thread. And not even like a Thanos half-and-half kind of deal. Like literally only a few have a legit chance. Granted it's not like I've covered every single possible character and these few are the obvious choices. You have stuff like Phoenix Wright, Dante, another Namco rep and many more that still have a legit shot at being among the final two on this pass. For anyone hoping for more 1st party characters or worthy secondary 3rd parties and/or indies. It's looking pretty grim.
Strong Possibility
Dragonborn or Doomguy (Pretty much a Besthesda rep in general Im meaning)
Crash Bandicoot
Still have a chance even if Small
Sans
Okami
Sora
Monokuma
Spyro
Reimu
Arle Nadja
Spirit (May come if theres more outside this first Fighter Pass, but for now Doubt it)
Rayman
Wonder Red
Chorus Kids
Dixie Kong
Celica
Stunt Racer
Fawful
Paper Mario
Balloon Fighter
Impa
Dimentio
Captain Toad
Shantae
Dr. Eggman
Kamek
Pauline
Tetra/Toon Zelda
Bandana Dee
The one Assist Trophy Exception (If it happens at all, it will be just him)
Waluigi
Mii Costume (Even unlikelier then if they were just a spirit but not quite as dead in chances as an Assist)
Rex
Chibi-Robo
Tails
Geno (Not confirmed per se, but I feel like we all know its coming as soon as DQ Hero drops)
Chocobo (Same with Geno)
Steve (Again not confirmed, but I feel like this might be where the rumored Minecraft content possibly comes in)
Assist Trophy/Pokemon (Dead as a doornail)
Takamaru
Shovel Knight
Spring Man
Issac
Bomberman
Ashley
Gardevoir
Incineroar Already Has The Gen 7 Spot
Decidueye
Boss
Marx
Never Released in Japan Tier
Mike Jones
SonicMario
Star Spirit
- Thread starter
- #115
So... after that Hero presentation. I think it's time to give a bit of an update on a certain character who we all thought was going to get his final nail in the coffin but may have surprisingly didn't. That of course being Geno. I even said in the last post pre-emptively putting him in the Mii costume expecting it like everything else. But even though the presentation did have a Mii costume section. Geno's did not show up.
I think this brings us to a glass half-full, half-empty situation.
So first let's list the good news for Geno fans. Outside of course being that Geno has survived being Mii costume'd in Ultimate. Geno is a character Sakurai aware of and has fondness for. He said it back in the Brawl days and he said it as recently as 2015. Many picks that were popular in the Brawl era of Speculation and remained popular ever since has made it like Ridley, K. Rool, and perhaps Banjo could somewhat count too. And Geno was among those cult followings back in the day. It really seems like the only thing in Geno's way is Square's approval
...And that may be still a huge impediment as we get into the bad news. Some Geno fans are certainly hyped, their character has survived on what was though going to be an inevitable return of just a costume. Some may even say he has as high as 80 or 90% chances or even outright confirmed as a result if they were that crazy. But we have to consider all the possibilities, that for one reason or another. Maybe they're not letting Geno be playable nor will they bring back the costume, which could arguably be an even worse fate. There's still some situations with how currently speculation has taken in DLC that's not good news for Geno still. That being Spirits, the type of inclusions on the Fighters pass thus far, and whether or not there will even be any other characters outside the Fighter Pass once it's all over. Another underrated possibility is the fact there are ALOT of Mii costumes from Smash 4 DLC that still hasn't returned for strange reasons including the Chocobo hat.
Spirits: With 3 of the 5 spots filled in the fighters pass, we have a pretty damn good idea that it's unlikely a character made a spirit may find it's way into the Fighters Pass. And even if there is one, it's going to be like the one exception out of 5. But it seems relatively deliberate that not only is there no fighters that are Spirits, but they're entirely new franchises.
Fighters Pass/Square Already has their spot: Just looking at our three Fighters pass character. We have Joker who's a Sega owned character under a subsidiary company ATLUS. That connection was made clear when the Tails and Knuckles costumes returned with him. We're probably not getting another Sega character in this pass. Banjo if he has any Mii costumes may possibly come with Minecraft or even possibly a Master Chief gunner costume. While Geno remains missing even while Hero is here, it feels unlikely that they give Square special dibs of having 2 of the 5 spots when they could spread it across.
Bonus Fighter/Fighters Pass 2 questions: Which leaves the only possibilities for Geno left is he is released as a bonus fighter ala Piranha Plant that's completely independent from the pass or if a 2nd Fighter Pass happened. And we must stress that neither is a guarantee. It sounds enticing to say "Of course there will be more outside this fighter's pass, Ultimate sold more then Brawl within just two or three months and will probably be the only new Smash for a long time to come! Why would Nintendo pass off free money by shutting things down that early?". I think the real problem is we're not paying attention to how Sakurai and Nintendo handled post-launch content for most games lately that makes sense to have but never did. Sakurai also mentioned how budgets was kind of low in part of the Hero presentation. Perhaps that's mostly a half-joke, but if budgets are tight as we get to the 2nd Fighter pass character. Are they really going to stretch it for another year or two easily?
Some may point out that it would mean Smash 4 got more DLC characters then Ultimate did with the 7 they got. But we must remember that 3 of those 7 were veterans. Two of which could of easily been built off Marth and Ness' base. You could also count Mewtwo I suppose since even though he did have references in term of Melee, they still had to mainly make him from scratch. So counting Mewtwo that's 4 out of the 7 that were much more "new" in terms of gameplay. Which brings this fighter Pass just one more beyond that. Plus this roster is already so huge since they brought back literally everybody who was playable before. Nintendo and/or Sakurai may feel content to cap off the roster at what will be 75 Numbered characters (82 if you include Echo Fighters).
tl;dr, Keep expectations in check for Geno. The seeming inevitability of the Mii costume coming with Hero was not the only reason things turned sour on anticipation for Geno after the base game roster was revealed. The way DLC has gone far has generally not looked good. Geno fans have to for the most part hope there's more DLC outside of the fighter pass. And even if we do get to that point, there are many other fans of characters that are hoping for the same thing. (Albeit I will say that Geno may actually have an advantage more then others if the Mii costume still does not show up before hypothetically more characters are announced)
I think this brings us to a glass half-full, half-empty situation.
So first let's list the good news for Geno fans. Outside of course being that Geno has survived being Mii costume'd in Ultimate. Geno is a character Sakurai aware of and has fondness for. He said it back in the Brawl days and he said it as recently as 2015. Many picks that were popular in the Brawl era of Speculation and remained popular ever since has made it like Ridley, K. Rool, and perhaps Banjo could somewhat count too. And Geno was among those cult followings back in the day. It really seems like the only thing in Geno's way is Square's approval
...And that may be still a huge impediment as we get into the bad news. Some Geno fans are certainly hyped, their character has survived on what was though going to be an inevitable return of just a costume. Some may even say he has as high as 80 or 90% chances or even outright confirmed as a result if they were that crazy. But we have to consider all the possibilities, that for one reason or another. Maybe they're not letting Geno be playable nor will they bring back the costume, which could arguably be an even worse fate. There's still some situations with how currently speculation has taken in DLC that's not good news for Geno still. That being Spirits, the type of inclusions on the Fighters pass thus far, and whether or not there will even be any other characters outside the Fighter Pass once it's all over. Another underrated possibility is the fact there are ALOT of Mii costumes from Smash 4 DLC that still hasn't returned for strange reasons including the Chocobo hat.
Spirits: With 3 of the 5 spots filled in the fighters pass, we have a pretty damn good idea that it's unlikely a character made a spirit may find it's way into the Fighters Pass. And even if there is one, it's going to be like the one exception out of 5. But it seems relatively deliberate that not only is there no fighters that are Spirits, but they're entirely new franchises.
Fighters Pass/Square Already has their spot: Just looking at our three Fighters pass character. We have Joker who's a Sega owned character under a subsidiary company ATLUS. That connection was made clear when the Tails and Knuckles costumes returned with him. We're probably not getting another Sega character in this pass. Banjo if he has any Mii costumes may possibly come with Minecraft or even possibly a Master Chief gunner costume. While Geno remains missing even while Hero is here, it feels unlikely that they give Square special dibs of having 2 of the 5 spots when they could spread it across.
Bonus Fighter/Fighters Pass 2 questions: Which leaves the only possibilities for Geno left is he is released as a bonus fighter ala Piranha Plant that's completely independent from the pass or if a 2nd Fighter Pass happened. And we must stress that neither is a guarantee. It sounds enticing to say "Of course there will be more outside this fighter's pass, Ultimate sold more then Brawl within just two or three months and will probably be the only new Smash for a long time to come! Why would Nintendo pass off free money by shutting things down that early?". I think the real problem is we're not paying attention to how Sakurai and Nintendo handled post-launch content for most games lately that makes sense to have but never did. Sakurai also mentioned how budgets was kind of low in part of the Hero presentation. Perhaps that's mostly a half-joke, but if budgets are tight as we get to the 2nd Fighter pass character. Are they really going to stretch it for another year or two easily?
Some may point out that it would mean Smash 4 got more DLC characters then Ultimate did with the 7 they got. But we must remember that 3 of those 7 were veterans. Two of which could of easily been built off Marth and Ness' base. You could also count Mewtwo I suppose since even though he did have references in term of Melee, they still had to mainly make him from scratch. So counting Mewtwo that's 4 out of the 7 that were much more "new" in terms of gameplay. Which brings this fighter Pass just one more beyond that. Plus this roster is already so huge since they brought back literally everybody who was playable before. Nintendo and/or Sakurai may feel content to cap off the roster at what will be 75 Numbered characters (82 if you include Echo Fighters).
tl;dr, Keep expectations in check for Geno. The seeming inevitability of the Mii costume coming with Hero was not the only reason things turned sour on anticipation for Geno after the base game roster was revealed. The way DLC has gone far has generally not looked good. Geno fans have to for the most part hope there's more DLC outside of the fighter pass. And even if we do get to that point, there are many other fans of characters that are hoping for the same thing. (Albeit I will say that Geno may actually have an advantage more then others if the Mii costume still does not show up before hypothetically more characters are announced)
I doubt Geno not getting a costume means anything, honestly. They were just taking costumes not from Squeanix in general, but just Dragon Quest. Same thing happened with Joker, only Persona costumes were released alongside him. So Geno's costume wasn't even supposed to show up, which really, in the end, changes absolutely nothing. If this gives hope to the fans... I'm sorry, you gotta just keep your previous expectations.
SonicMario
Star Spirit
- Thread starter
- #117
That's actually wrong. The Tails and Knuckles costumes from Smash 4 returned with Joker. It is strange how one of the last Mii costumes added to Smash 4 become like the only returning 3rd party Mii costumes in Ultimate. As we still have yet to see stuff like the Megaman or Namco mii costumes as well. But yeah.
Gumball Machine
Celestial Guide
What about Tails using his mech from SA2? Similar to Bowser Jr. in his clown car (not an echo).
Mallow. People are fixing their attention on Geno, but I'm wondering about Mallow.
A dream friend from Kirby Star Allies. Would any of them work? Other than Bandana Waddle Dee since he's the most requested Kirby character.
Mallow. People are fixing their attention on Geno, but I'm wondering about Mallow.
A dream friend from Kirby Star Allies. Would any of them work? Other than Bandana Waddle Dee since he's the most requested Kirby character.
SonicMario
Star Spirit
- Thread starter
- #120
Tails isn't getting playable using the mech. It was one game and it's probably fit better for Eggman if he got playable.
Just plain and simple, Mallow isn't getting in before Geno. Despite Mallow having a bigger part of the story, it's Geno who the fanbase has rallied around.
Bandana Waddle Dee's the only Kirby Character I can ever see happening for a fourth aside from maybe Marx who's already a boss. Though I guess you're free to suggest particular Allies.
Also with the announcement of more fighters outside the Fighter Pass. I'd like to apologize for my statement regarding Geno after the Hero presentation. For now I think he actually stands a great chance. Not only is there room now, but he's survived two Mii costume death knells. I won't even be surprised if he turns out to be the first character announced after the Fighter Pass is finished.
There's actually quite a bit of characters that could be re-evaluated now that there's a little more wiggle room. I need more time to think on it. But I'll just say that Geno at least is the one character that comes to mind who's chances just shot up immensely. I'm still neutral on Geno and won't really care one way or the other. But he's now a character I feel like we can put into our expectations pretty safely. I will now actually be more surprised if Geno doesn't make it in this time.
SonicMario
Star Spirit
- Thread starter
- #122
Honestly the Mii costume is awesome. I was laughing out loud (And this time a laugh that isn't hiding internal screaming from the Smash speculator in me like it was for Piranha Plant heh, hell even if it was the ACTUAL Sans I would still be happier overall with it then I am currently with Piranha Plant :V) and think it's great Undertale got to have this level of representation in Smash.
Gumball Machine
Celestial Guide
I meant to say Guest Star, which would also include the Dream Friends. Piranha Plant's inclusion means generic enemies can make the list and Star Allies' Guest Star mode is playing as the enemies.
SonicMario
Star Spirit
- Thread starter
- #124
Pardon if it's been a while since I last posted here. Just when Terry was revealed I decided to maybe just wait a little while longer until the Fighter's Pass was finished before I updated this thread. Because I gotta be honest in I just don't have much to say about Terry having little-to-no history with him other then I knew he existed. If not for the Nintendo UK goof-up that leaked that SNK was getting the fourth character I would have never thought of Terry being a possibility. So I thought maybe wait for the 5th character to see if it's someone that I can talk about longer in length and well... given how long Fire Emblem has been a part of Smash Bros. it's technically true that I'm alot more aware of Fire Emblem then I am of either Fatal Fury or King of Fighters it's also a pick that's hardly any more exciting as someone outside the Fire Emblem fandom. However, for a short disclaimer that I am not mad that Byleth is in. I completely understand why Byleth was included even if the timing is no doubt a large part of the salt (It probably would of been somewhat accepted better if say Byleth was revealed as the 2nd character of the pass while numbers 3, 4, and 5 of Banjo, Terry, and Hero were revealed in any order. Though I imagine the negotiations with companies have something to do with the order of characters). For now though let's just get my character thoughts (Which I may warn may be kind of a bit short in terms of any personal connection I have, apologies for either character not my cup of cup of tea but both I assure you I think are decent additions)
TERRY BOGARD
Like I said, there was no way I could of thought he was coming had it not been for the Nintendo UK goof-up. Though what might of laid the seeds for Terry's inclusion is the timing of SNK games getting put on the Switch. Apparently they were put up on the Switch pretty early on. Like almost launch month early. And with a system as successful as the Switch goes with one of the few choices for games in the first few months. It led to some pretty big sales for SNK, and perhaps seeing cash in their eyes they proceeded to work with Sakurai to provide an iconic character of theirs. There is no doubt Terry is one of if not the flagship SNK character and any gamers that know their fighting game history are well aware of who Terry is. Many of the competitive Smashers themselves if they ever took a look at the other fighting games being played at events like EVO have probably seen Terry.
I guess the surprise mainly comes from how Smash's demographic and fanbase is so huge that even characters like Terry who as said before is a flagship character of their company can be overlooked. Though another factor in Terry's inclusion was this: Sakurai's own competitive gaming history. Based on some things we publicly know about Sakurai, he has been in competiive fighting game tournaments himself for games such as Street Fighter and King of Fighters. In fact, King of Fighters is directly tied into the story of how Sakurai came to the decision to one day create a fighting game that can appeal to a more casual audience that eventually became the birth of the Smash Bros. series. Sakurai was playing King of Fighters in an arcade once in setups where you don't see your human opponent on the other side. And Sakurai absolutely obliterated the other person playing the game. Sakurai went out and finally saw who his opponent was: It was a young couple, but more specifically a young woman who was being shown the game by her boyfriend. It was that moment where Sakurai regretted doing so good against her. Her boyfriend perhaps just wanted her to try a game that he likes, but perhaps the women wouldn't want to play games like it ever again because of just how pummeled she was. While there's probably a lot more factors that went into the birth of Super Smash Bros. this was the moment Sakurai decided that one day he would make a game where even if you're entirely unskilled at the technical games, you can pick up and play a more simpler style.
Though another factor from the same story is that we know Sakurai is a huge fan of King of Fighters and probably enjoyed very much including one of his favorite series. The Terry presentation was pretty much 40 minutes of Sakurai telling the world his love for the franchise despite many hoping that the time alotted would mean perhaps a surprise reveal of the 5th and final fighter pass character as well.
As for my personal thoughts on Terry. Having played with him by now he's a kinda cool character. Not a character I see myself using too much but his engrish is fun and he's with Ryu as a character I'm never going to be good with since I'm not a technical fighting game person but nonetheless kind of fun to use. Perhaps to answer one of Terry's own questions. Yes I'm "ok" with Terry, hehe.
BYLETH
OOOOOOOHHHHH BOOOOOYYYYYYYY the Smash fandom is on fire right now.
Yes, here we are. The final character of the pass which is worth just as much money as the previous 4 3rd party characters. Is none other then the 8th Fire Emblem character in the series. And even for those who are fans of Three Houses, even they kind of would of preferred a character other then the player's avatar again. So safe to say, the reaction to this didn't go over well. On a technical sense it seems better then the Corrin inclusion because Three Houses has been a very successful entry in the series where as Corrin got included in Smash before the release in the west and Fates turned out to be a controversial entry of the series. Thought at the same time keep in mind that we were told all of the fighter pass characters were already chosen by November of 2018, meaning Byleth was planned to be included before Three Houses was going to release. Imagine if Three Houses had turned out to be yet another controversial entry like Fates or even possibly worse. In that sense it could be argued it's just as questionable as a decision as Corrin was last time, just this time the actual game the character comes from was a bigger hit. Characters that were decided to be in Smash before their game even came out is always going to irk a decent chunk of the Smash fanbase and it's just kind of multiplied that it only seems to happen with Pokemon and Fire Emblem. Not any stuff like say new exciting IPs such as Astral Chain or other franchises that probably would of welcomed more promotion such as Xenoblade (Whether that could of been Elma or Rex)
As for me personally, I'm not mad. Though at the same I feel just a little more justified in having not bought the pass from the beginning. If I had known who all the fighters were and the pass was the only way to get them I probably would of bought the pass at least for Banjo. Don't get me wrong I'm still going to be buying Byleth. I don't have that much of a problem with Byleth. If Piranha Plant wasn't a free promotion for pre-purchasing the game that would literally be the only character I would of skipped over. (Though on one hand I did briefly consider skipping on Roy back in Smash 4 but my brother wanted to try him out plus I got a $20 eshop card which not much else I could think to get so eh). Just that of course most of the pass are characters that I'm fine with but aren't too interesting for me personally. Banjo is my highlight, though even with that I'm not a longtime Banjo fan. He just stands out as the most colorful and the only non-human. I do feel somewhat bad for anyone who decided to indeed buy the pass but are now stuck with a character they might of chosen to skip out on if they were so entirely against more Fire Emblem being included. It's exactly why mystery passes like that are hard for me to justify, I get paying full price is kind of like telling the developers you trust them to make great DLC. But at the same time Smash is a character game where we hope to see our favorites or at least characters that provide something new to game either visually, personality-wise, and/or moveset wise. Three Houses is a good game, and Byleth looks to be much like Robin and Corrin one of the more interesting movesets out of the Fire Emblem roster currently in Smash. However, I think we can forgive people who were hoping for someone other then yet another character with a sword, blue hair, and from Fire Emblem.
Now on to the rankings, of the two final Fighter Pass 1 characters. Terry is the higher rank on Merit. But still on the lower end of things. I'm putting him higher then Incineroar. But below the Inklings. If he maybe had a bit more exposure overall then he did historically, he might be closer to where Hero and Simon are. Byleth on the other hand is going below Incineroar but just above Joker because Fire Emblem is kind of more central to Nintendo then Persona is as of now (Any Persona fans don't get mad at me, I'm completely fine with Joker being included just aside from being spun off from Shin Megami Tensei, the Persona series isn't a series that feels synonymous with Nintendo). Both Incineroar and Byleth are kind of "shill" picks though at least Incineroar certainly has his own wrestling motif going for him where once again Byleth is yet another sword fighter.
UNIQUE RANKINGS
#1. Banjo-Kazooie
#2. Ridley
#3. King K. Rool
#4. The Hero
#5. Simon Belmont
#6. Isabelle
#7. Inklings
#8. Terry Bogard
#9. Incineroar
#10. Byleth
#11. Joker
ECHO FIGHTER RANKINGS
#1. Ken
#2. Dark Samus
#3. Chrom
#4. Daisy
#5. Richter Belmont
SONICMARIO.EXE IS BROKEN
#
. Piranha Plant
Still 6 more to characters to go! Albeit looks like we may be in for a slower pace. The deadline is December 2021. Speculation for Ultimate has officially been extended for just about 2 years. This certainly has to be all that's left.
TERRY BOGARD
Like I said, there was no way I could of thought he was coming had it not been for the Nintendo UK goof-up. Though what might of laid the seeds for Terry's inclusion is the timing of SNK games getting put on the Switch. Apparently they were put up on the Switch pretty early on. Like almost launch month early. And with a system as successful as the Switch goes with one of the few choices for games in the first few months. It led to some pretty big sales for SNK, and perhaps seeing cash in their eyes they proceeded to work with Sakurai to provide an iconic character of theirs. There is no doubt Terry is one of if not the flagship SNK character and any gamers that know their fighting game history are well aware of who Terry is. Many of the competitive Smashers themselves if they ever took a look at the other fighting games being played at events like EVO have probably seen Terry.
I guess the surprise mainly comes from how Smash's demographic and fanbase is so huge that even characters like Terry who as said before is a flagship character of their company can be overlooked. Though another factor in Terry's inclusion was this: Sakurai's own competitive gaming history. Based on some things we publicly know about Sakurai, he has been in competiive fighting game tournaments himself for games such as Street Fighter and King of Fighters. In fact, King of Fighters is directly tied into the story of how Sakurai came to the decision to one day create a fighting game that can appeal to a more casual audience that eventually became the birth of the Smash Bros. series. Sakurai was playing King of Fighters in an arcade once in setups where you don't see your human opponent on the other side. And Sakurai absolutely obliterated the other person playing the game. Sakurai went out and finally saw who his opponent was: It was a young couple, but more specifically a young woman who was being shown the game by her boyfriend. It was that moment where Sakurai regretted doing so good against her. Her boyfriend perhaps just wanted her to try a game that he likes, but perhaps the women wouldn't want to play games like it ever again because of just how pummeled she was. While there's probably a lot more factors that went into the birth of Super Smash Bros. this was the moment Sakurai decided that one day he would make a game where even if you're entirely unskilled at the technical games, you can pick up and play a more simpler style.
Though another factor from the same story is that we know Sakurai is a huge fan of King of Fighters and probably enjoyed very much including one of his favorite series. The Terry presentation was pretty much 40 minutes of Sakurai telling the world his love for the franchise despite many hoping that the time alotted would mean perhaps a surprise reveal of the 5th and final fighter pass character as well.
As for my personal thoughts on Terry. Having played with him by now he's a kinda cool character. Not a character I see myself using too much but his engrish is fun and he's with Ryu as a character I'm never going to be good with since I'm not a technical fighting game person but nonetheless kind of fun to use. Perhaps to answer one of Terry's own questions. Yes I'm "ok" with Terry, hehe.
BYLETH
OOOOOOOHHHHH BOOOOOYYYYYYYY the Smash fandom is on fire right now.
Yes, here we are. The final character of the pass which is worth just as much money as the previous 4 3rd party characters. Is none other then the 8th Fire Emblem character in the series. And even for those who are fans of Three Houses, even they kind of would of preferred a character other then the player's avatar again. So safe to say, the reaction to this didn't go over well. On a technical sense it seems better then the Corrin inclusion because Three Houses has been a very successful entry in the series where as Corrin got included in Smash before the release in the west and Fates turned out to be a controversial entry of the series. Thought at the same time keep in mind that we were told all of the fighter pass characters were already chosen by November of 2018, meaning Byleth was planned to be included before Three Houses was going to release. Imagine if Three Houses had turned out to be yet another controversial entry like Fates or even possibly worse. In that sense it could be argued it's just as questionable as a decision as Corrin was last time, just this time the actual game the character comes from was a bigger hit. Characters that were decided to be in Smash before their game even came out is always going to irk a decent chunk of the Smash fanbase and it's just kind of multiplied that it only seems to happen with Pokemon and Fire Emblem. Not any stuff like say new exciting IPs such as Astral Chain or other franchises that probably would of welcomed more promotion such as Xenoblade (Whether that could of been Elma or Rex)
As for me personally, I'm not mad. Though at the same I feel just a little more justified in having not bought the pass from the beginning. If I had known who all the fighters were and the pass was the only way to get them I probably would of bought the pass at least for Banjo. Don't get me wrong I'm still going to be buying Byleth. I don't have that much of a problem with Byleth. If Piranha Plant wasn't a free promotion for pre-purchasing the game that would literally be the only character I would of skipped over. (Though on one hand I did briefly consider skipping on Roy back in Smash 4 but my brother wanted to try him out plus I got a $20 eshop card which not much else I could think to get so eh). Just that of course most of the pass are characters that I'm fine with but aren't too interesting for me personally. Banjo is my highlight, though even with that I'm not a longtime Banjo fan. He just stands out as the most colorful and the only non-human. I do feel somewhat bad for anyone who decided to indeed buy the pass but are now stuck with a character they might of chosen to skip out on if they were so entirely against more Fire Emblem being included. It's exactly why mystery passes like that are hard for me to justify, I get paying full price is kind of like telling the developers you trust them to make great DLC. But at the same time Smash is a character game where we hope to see our favorites or at least characters that provide something new to game either visually, personality-wise, and/or moveset wise. Three Houses is a good game, and Byleth looks to be much like Robin and Corrin one of the more interesting movesets out of the Fire Emblem roster currently in Smash. However, I think we can forgive people who were hoping for someone other then yet another character with a sword, blue hair, and from Fire Emblem.
Now on to the rankings, of the two final Fighter Pass 1 characters. Terry is the higher rank on Merit. But still on the lower end of things. I'm putting him higher then Incineroar. But below the Inklings. If he maybe had a bit more exposure overall then he did historically, he might be closer to where Hero and Simon are. Byleth on the other hand is going below Incineroar but just above Joker because Fire Emblem is kind of more central to Nintendo then Persona is as of now (Any Persona fans don't get mad at me, I'm completely fine with Joker being included just aside from being spun off from Shin Megami Tensei, the Persona series isn't a series that feels synonymous with Nintendo). Both Incineroar and Byleth are kind of "shill" picks though at least Incineroar certainly has his own wrestling motif going for him where once again Byleth is yet another sword fighter.
UNIQUE RANKINGS
#1. Banjo-Kazooie
#2. Ridley
#3. King K. Rool
#4. The Hero
#5. Simon Belmont
#6. Isabelle
#7. Inklings
#8. Terry Bogard
#9. Incineroar
#10. Byleth
#11. Joker
ECHO FIGHTER RANKINGS
#1. Ken
#2. Dark Samus
#3. Chrom
#4. Daisy
#5. Richter Belmont
SONICMARIO.EXE IS BROKEN
#
Still 6 more to characters to go! Albeit looks like we may be in for a slower pace. The deadline is December 2021. Speculation for Ultimate has officially been extended for just about 2 years. This certainly has to be all that's left.
Shyghoul
Peace be with you, whoever you are.
- Pronouns
- she/her/they
>FE Echoes style remake of Thracia 776 style is announced later this year
>its released by the end of 2021
>november 2021 direct begins
>sakurai is sitting in his office with both middle fingers pointed at the camera
>"Hello, my name is Masahiro Sakurai, and i'm here to announce Leif from the Fire Emblem series, he has a sword."