What do we do with Super Smash Bros?

Hibiki Tachibana

Gekisou Gungnir
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So, this grew out of a discord discussion brought up by Time Turner. Basically, our smash coverage is... ridiculously extensive. A bit out of hand, perhaps, for how much of that game is Mario vs. how much isn't - mainly in how every character's special move has a separate article, even those who have nothing to do with Mario otherwise. It's not really a proper crossover, compared to things like Mario & Sonic, but at the same time it's clearly more than a guest appearance or a cameo.

One thing I suggested was making Smash a special case and moderately condensing the coverage. This would make it treated differently from a crossover, guest appearance, or cameo, so we thought it would be a good idea to bring up the idea on the collaborations board before doing anything else.

Thoughts?
 

Santa Claws

Rebel with a Cause
Poll Committee
I was thinking to delete SSB coverage on non-Mario aspects altogether, but I like this option you suggested.
 

Hibiki Tachibana

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Baby Luigi said:
If we were to moderately tighten coverage, which types of articles would be deleted?
I honestly wasn't sure at the moment - I more wanted to get the concept as a whole under discussion first, and then specifics the second.

To me, the non-Mario enemies from SSE and the various articles on non-Mario special moves feel like they can easily go. Major things (for example, pages on Bayonetta or Ice Climbers) would stay, but minor stuff that's Smash-exclusive could be condensed or scrapped. I'm very open to suggestions, though!
 

Glowsquid

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my ideal would be to return to like 2010 level of coverage where we had decently-sized info on the games and cast but not individual pages for every special moves, individuals in group items (pokeball and assist trophies, etc) but notm uch more radical thenthat. nintendo's increasing cross-promotion efforts means we'd likely end up with articles for lucina, shulk, king ddd etc ANYWAY
 

Time Turner

You are filled with determination. (R/GD/TT)
I think my thoughts on the matter are thus: how many different kinds of subjects can we merge together without losing any information (and without the resulting pages turning into the Banjo/Conker pages of ye olden days)? There are quite a few subject groups whose articles are only about one paragraph long (moves, items, assist trophies/pokemon, even the majority of the stages), and I think it'll work out if we start off merging together them.

Edit: I think that the Assist Trophy page could provide a decent template for the future articles.
 

Alex95

NIWA Nut
Wiki Administrator
I'll be the guy that says I have no problem with how things are done now.

But if we absolutely have to, giving the non-Smash exclusive stuff (that is, everything not from Smash) their own pages and the Smash-exclusive stuff (aside from Master Hand, Crazy Hand, Tabuu, and Master Core because of how major they are) can be can be brought into a list on the main game page, with links to the Smash Wiki, makes the most sense to me. For example, the enemies in The Subspace Emissary can be in an enemy chart with links in their names leading to ssbwiki.

Everything major in Smash (playable characters, bosses, assist characters, stages, items, etc.) would have their own page. Everything minor (stage hazard characters (why do we have a Whispy Woods article?), adventure mode/Smash Run-exclusive enemies, etc.) would link to their appropriate wiki.

As for identifier confusion, I'm fine with it. Give the Pit (obstacle) page the main treatment and moving Pit to "Pit (Kid Icarus)", for example.
 

Time Turner

You are filled with determination. (R/GD/TT)
What makes assist trophies and other items particularly major? Also, "Smash-exclusive stuff" extends to several items and stages as well. And why are you using Whispy Woods as your example when his article shows that he appears in the Mario franchise proper?
 

Jolly DönerMax

Super Smashed Brother
On one hand, should we cover or merge information on Smash Attack and Shield? Special Attack isn't even its own article. Anyhow, those span multiple games, but is it worth having those articles when SmashWiki does them better? Should Trophy get its own article? We cover Smash fully but if we're trimming stuff down, we got to reevaluate where Smash Bros. falls in in our coverage policy.
 

Alex95

NIWA Nut
Wiki Administrator
Time Turner said:
What makes assist trophies and other items particularly major? Also, "Smash-exclusive stuff" extends to several items and stages as well.
Might be a case-by-case basis thing, then, and that may be what this entire conversation may end up boiling down to. The Assist Trophy and Pokemon characters should remain because they are all just that: characters. They may not be playable and can be turned off anytime, but I feel like they are still important enough to warrant a full article.

Stages like Battlefield and Final Destination should stay because they are actually selectable from the menu, whereas SSE-exclusive stages like Midair Stadium could probably go.

For items, that may be a little trickier. Items can effect everyone one way or another. The Smash Ball would remain because it gives literally every character another move, and we only cover Key because of the generic term of it, but things like the Ray Gun, Stock Ball, etc. are just simple items.

With SSE and Smash Run exclusive enemies, such as Borboras or Primid, they have no meaning to any series other than Smash.

Time Turner said:
And why are you using Whispy Woods as your example when his article shows that he appears in the Mario franchise proper?
Obviously I didn't read it well enough. Disregard that statement, actually, because if I'm regarding assist characters as full characters, then I should regard Ridley, Metal Face, etc. as full characters as well.
 

Time Turner

You are filled with determination. (R/GD/TT)
LeftyGreenMario said:
On one hand, should we cover or merge information on Smash Attack and Shield? Special Attack isn't even its own article. Anyhow, those span multiple games, but is it worth having those articles when SmashWiki does them better? Should Trophy get its own article? We cover Smash fully but if we're trimming stuff down, we got to reevaluate where Smash Bros. falls in in our coverage policy.
The discussion on Discord roughly concluded with the idea of Smash being an exception to our current coverage policy: the Mario content is prominent enough that calling it a "guest appearance" doesn't seem right, but at the same time, labelling it as a crossover as if the Mario content is equal in prominence to Fortune Street or Mario & Sonic (Mario & Sonic (series)) doesn't seem right either. It's not set in stone, though, and changes can be made as we go along.

Just to make sure everyone's on the same page, MarioWiki:Coverage lists the five categories that games can occupy: it's either a full-fledged member of the franchise, a crossover (e.g. Wario Blast: Featuring Bomberman!), a guest appearance (e.g. SSX on Tour), a cameo (e.g. The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening (Chain_Chomp#Cameos)), or it's historically significant (i.e. Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic).

Alex95 said:
Time Turner said:
What makes assist trophies and other items particularly major? Also, "Smash-exclusive stuff" extends to several items and stages as well.
Might be a case-by-case basis thing, then, and that may be what this entire conversation may end up boiling down to. The Assist Trophy and Pokemon characters should remain because they are all just that: characters. They may not be playable and can be turned off anytime, but I feel like they are still important enough to warrant a full article.

Stages like Battlefield and Final Destination should stay because they are actually selectable from the menu, whereas SSE-exclusive stages like Midair Stadium could probably go.

For items, that may be a little trickier. Items can effect everyone one way or another. The Smash Ball would remain because it gives literally every character another move, and we only cover Key because of the generic term of it, but things like the Ray Gun, Stock Ball, etc. are just simple items.

With SSE and Smash Run exclusive enemies, such as Borboras or Primid, they have no meaning to any series other than Smash.
Forgive me for saying this, but a lot of that is arbitrary. Deciding everything on a case-by-case basis is going to be so much more of a headache than it's worth.
 

Alex95

NIWA Nut
Wiki Administrator
Time Turner said:
Alex95 said:
Time Turner said:
What makes assist trophies and other items particularly major? Also, "Smash-exclusive stuff" extends to several items and stages as well.
Might be a case-by-case basis thing, then, and that may be what this entire conversation may end up boiling down to. The Assist Trophy and Pokemon characters should remain because they are all just that: characters. They may not be playable and can be turned off anytime, but I feel like they are still important enough to warrant a full article.

Stages like Battlefield and Final Destination should stay because they are actually selectable from the menu, whereas SSE-exclusive stages like Midair Stadium could probably go.

For items, that may be a little trickier. Items can effect everyone one way or another. The Smash Ball would remain because it gives literally every character another move, and we only cover Key because of the generic term of it, but things like the Ray Gun, Stock Ball, etc. are just simple items.

With SSE and Smash Run exclusive enemies, such as Borboras or Primid, they have no meaning to any series other than Smash.
Forgive me for saying this, but a lot of that is arbitrary. Deciding everything on a case-by-case basis is going to be so much more of a headache than it's worth.
I completely agree, hence why I feel how we're doing things now is acceptable.
 

Time Turner

You are filled with determination. (R/GD/TT)
Two questions, then: do you think that literally everything in the Smash game should be given an individual article, and do you think that the Smash games feature Mario content that's on par with the crossovers that I mentioned previously?
 

Alex95

NIWA Nut
Wiki Administrator
Time Turner said:
do you think that literally everything in the Smash game should be given an individual article
Yes. While playable characters are definitely the major point of the series, everything else is no more important than the other.

Time Turner said:
do you think that the Smash games feature Mario content that's on par with the crossovers that I mentioned previously?
Smash is quite possibly the largest crossover title in video game media. So, no, it's not on par with the other crossover titles, it's bigger.
 

Time Turner

You are filled with determination. (R/GD/TT)
Alex95 said:
Time Turner said:
do you think that the Smash games feature Mario content that's on par with the crossovers that I mentioned previously?
Smash is quite possibly the largest crossover title in video game media. So, no, it's not on par with the other crossover titles, it's bigger.
That wasn't my question. Is the Mario content in the games equal to, or more than, other crossovers?
 

TheFlameChomp

Spiny
Wiki Administrator
In my opinion, it would make sense to merge smaller things such as moves and Assist Trophy/Pokéball characters, but I do feel that the items are important enough in the games to have their own articles.
 

Alex95

NIWA Nut
Wiki Administrator
Time Turner said:
Alex95 said:
Time Turner said:
do you think that the Smash games feature Mario content that's on par with the crossovers that I mentioned previously?
Smash is quite possibly the largest crossover title in video game media. So, no, it's not on par with the other crossover titles, it's bigger.
That wasn't my question. Is the Mario content in the games equal to, or more than, other crossovers?
I was referring to the Mario content, but the same could be said for just about any other series involved, aside from maybe the third-party ones.
 

Hibiki Tachibana

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my personal view is:

-keep character pages
-merge enemy pages into a general list of enemies in Smash X
-merge special move pages into the associated character's page
-keep stages
-merge assist trophies into a general list of assist trophies in Smash X
-merge pokemon into a list
-merge items into a list

i realize this is kind of drastic but that's how i feel it
 

Time Turner

You are filled with determination. (R/GD/TT)
Miu Iruma said:
my personal view is:

-keep character pages
-merge enemy pages into a general list of enemies in Smash X
-merge special move pages into the associated character's page
-keep stages
-merge assist trophies into a general list of assist trophies in Smash X
-merge pokemon into a list
-merge items into a list

i realize this is kind of drastic but that's how i feel it
Tbh, my opinion is basically that, but also merge the stages into a list.
 

Raven Effect

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Retired Wiki Staff
i'm fine with merging assist trophies and poke balls
but not stages and general items
 

BBQ Turtle

Crazy sponsors lady.
Wiki Patroller
Awards Committee
Miu Iruma said:
my personal view is:

-keep character pages
-merge enemy pages into a general list of enemies in Smash X
-merge special move pages into the associated character's page
-keep stages
-merge assist trophies into a general list of assist trophies in Smash X
-merge pokemon into a list
-merge items into a list

i realize this is kind of drastic but that's how i feel it
I think that's probably the best way to go about it. It means that only the unnecessary information is removed, but everything is still to an extent covered. I'm not totally sure about how to go about items and assist trophies, but I think merging what we can is the best thing to do, as well as throwing in plenty of links to other Wikis.
 

Duskull

Star Spirit
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Steamed Hams said:
i'm fine with merging assist trophies and poke balls
but not stages and general items
I agree with those, although I'd also argue for the merging of the Smash Run enemies. I feel like the items and stages are important enough to remain separate articles.
 

Time Turner

You are filled with determination. (R/GD/TT)
[wiki=MarioWiki:proposals#Make_an_exception_for_the_Super_Smash_Bros._series_in_our_coverage_policy]A proposal is up about making the Smash series an exception to our coverage policy[/wiki]. If this proposal passes, we'll be able to actually make decisions about what content should or shouldn't be covered.
 
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