How do you regard Bowser's role in RPGs?

Dorayaki

Dorayaki

King Bowser
RPGBowser.jpg


To define the title, we're talking about the times when Bowser is neither the final boss nor a main party member.

It comes to my attention that altho Bowser doesn't participate in every secondary game that the main cast appear (e.g. Treasrue Tracker, Showtime), we can notice that Bowser has been to all Mario RPGs so far. And different from Super Mario mainline, since Mario RPGs also feature alot of original stories and focus on original villains, Bowser usually serves other kinds of roles in such scenario, mostly as a midboss who ends up having temporary alliance with Mario bros.

But to my concern, do fans worry that the stories would have difficulties in giving Bowser a new storyline in a new RPG under the same condition? We know Nintendo's policy is not acknowledging coherence between different RPGs so he would not specify what he did in a previous RPG. So I wonder if it would end up repetitive in both storyline or midboss fight aspects, if the directors have no clear idea what they can do with Bowser in a brand new story.

Also as I mentioned above, since Bowser didn't particiapte in Showtime and other games, what if we don't have Bowser in the next RPG story? Like, I know Bowser fans would not love to hear this, but I think.... if Bowser is not set to have a major role, I find it kinda pointless to force his insertion as a secondary character without a real need from the story theme so not having him would be the direct way to avoid the issue.

The other problem behind this is the lack of use of other main cast, except Birdo, many of them were never given a supporting role insertion whenever they did this to Bowser, and especially Waluigi, who severely lacks a story role and it's frustrating cause he can easily reprise Bowser's role here.

Do you think the Mario RPGs so far did a good job with a supporting Bowser? Do you wish him to reprise the same role again, or the next RPG needs to try something different?
 
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I like how he was handled in Brothership. He was a reluctant ally who got to show off his love and protective nature over Bowser Jr. And his supporting cast, especially Jr. got to shine in that game as well. We got to see character angles from Bowser Jr's Journey explored again, which I was really glad about because I was afraid Nintendo would want to blacklist everything to do with that game after how badly it sold.

He's also handled really well in Origami King, again he's a reluctant ally and though briefly a party member, I don't really count it as one of his main playable appearances. For the most part he's a supporting NPC, and again his entire army gets to shine while not being the main antagonists. Seeing Bowser's troops storm the castle and fight the Folded Soldiers was a hype moment, Bowser is taking charge and taking back what's rightfully his.

IMO his most expendable appearance as neither party member nor main antagonist is in Partners in Time, at least as an adult. His baby self plays a key role in the beginning of the game and makes a good recurring scoundrel, but adult Bowser exists just to show up and kidnap "Peach" to add padding when the story was already in full swing. His boss fight with his baby self is great, but outside that I feel like he doesn't add enough to the story and just comes out of nowhere. Shrowser is probably the dumbest final boss, there had already been a satisfying conclusion but they had to suddenly make Bowser get possessed again at the last second for a nothing minigame...for some reason? Extremely anticlimactic and left field.

In Superstar Saga, Bowser himself doesn't do much but the alter-egos he ends up getting were creative and novel at the time imo. Rookie is a funny character, and Bowletta is a great showcase of Cackletta's desperate resilience when she appeared to be beaten. It's just that "Bowser getting possessed" was milked enough in later games that it reflected negatively on this original take on it. Even if he wasn't himself for most of it, I wouldn't remove Bowser from Superstar Saga and lose the moments we got because of his presence.

And that just leaves TTYD I think. I found his intermissions incredibly entertaining. They don't contribute much to the plot, but it does make sense that Bowser would be travelling around trying to find the Crystal Stars, and using intermissions to show that while showing how frustrated he is that he's always one step behind Mario is fun. Also, we get a lot of interactions with Kammy Koopa this way, a character I still resent the abandonment of.

So no in most cases I don't think Bowser's presence as a supporting character is generally a detraction. He is consistently one of the best written characters and I love it when he isn't used merely to fill the status quo and they actually have to think about what sort of role to use him for. If he wasn't there at all, something would feel missing. These are still Mario adventures after all, having him missing from adventures starring other characters makes more sense.
 
Sticker Star Bowser is one of the worst JRPG villains ever conceived, and I say this well aware of what the JRPG genre offers. All NPCs in that game are underdeveloped and atrocious with maybe the exception of Kamek, Bowser Jr., and Kersti, mostly because they're tangible characters with actual dialogue as opposed to the recolored Toads all over the game. I don't even mention Princess Peach because does she really do or even say anything interesting in that game?

I personally have distaste for Count Bleck but I can see why people like him. Sticker Star Bowser is a parodic fasmile of an interesting character, basically the logical extreme of Nintendo's mindset that Mario games don't need characters that can talk.
 
Xiahou Ba said:
Sticker Star Bowser is one of the worst JRPG villains ever conceived, and I say this well aware of what the JRPG genre offers. All NPCs in that game are underdeveloped and atrocious with maybe the exception of Kamek, Bowser Jr., and Kersti, mostly because they're tangible characters with actual dialogue as opposed to the recolored Toads all over the game. I don't even mention Princess Peach because does she really do or even say anything interesting in that game?

I personally have distaste for Count Bleck but I can see why people like him. Sticker Star Bowser is a parodic fasmile of an interesting character, basically the logical extreme of Nintendo's mindset that Mario games don't need characters that can talk.
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I mean, the mostly not talking badguy you only see at the very end is fairly common for jrpg bosses. Its hardly the worst, its just nothing special. If anything when looking at what commonly happens in jrpgs its fairly stock. Which is a problem in of itself of course but its still hardly the worst. Not even close.

Anyway I feel like most people know my thoughts on Bowser so I'll keep this short. I dislike when he's treated like a pathetic second banana wannabe villain who is just there to make the new guys look "more evil" by comparison.

Its actually why I like how Brothership treats him, he's fairly evenly matched with the villains of that game to the point that the have to use the Mario bros to beat him for them and after that he only gets swatted aside by the super powerful tree monster the villains spent the whole game powering up and he still gets his moments to shine as a villain, even if he's not the main threat. Plus the interactions between him and Jr are always nice.

That being said I do think at times it would be fine if he just wasn't in the game. Just being there for the sake of being there just diminishes him as a character imo.
 
Mcmadness said:
I mean, the mostly not talking badguy you only see at the very end is fairly common for jrpg bosses. Its hardly the worst, its just nothing special. If anything when looking at what commonly happens in jrpgs its fairly stock. Which is a problem in of itself of course but its still hardly the worst. Not even close.
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Thats the thing though, as opposed to other silent eldritch abominations in other JRPGs without character traits, Bowser is charismatic and entertaining, and his dialogue is one of the best parts of Paper Mario titles. Sticker Star took it away, which makes it even worse than if it was a generic villain that doesnt talk at all.
 
Yeah silent villains can be great if they are like that from conception, their character is designed around it, and there is no entertaining hammy personality they previously had established that the silent treatment acts as a replacement for. Bowser being silent imo only works in 2D Mario games where it's pure gameplay to such a degree that characterization in general is nearly nonexistent. There's a reason he talks in almost all the 3D Mario games too (and the only ones he doesn't talk in are the ones that intentionally aim for the 2D formula adapted into 3D). And not only that, but when 2D Mario decided to focus more on personality and characterization with Wonder, suddenly Bowser is talking again. I don't think that's a coincidence.

In fact I'd go so far as to argue that the RPGs had a tangible influence on Bowser's characterization in mainline games. There's not much to him in SM64, but by Sunshine and especially Galaxy he really feels closer to his RPG incarnation. Obviously he's much more of a threat in most mainline games since he's always the primary antagonist, but when I see Bowser's dialogue in Galaxy, there's no doubt in my mind that's the same guy who existed in the Paper Mario series. That hamminess IS Bowser, take that away and what you're left with isn't Bowser. It's a guy who looks like him but is functionally just a big raging obstacle.

Prior to the RPGs, most speaking roles Bowser got were nearly unrecognizable to his current form, like the cartoons' King Koopa whose primary trait was being boastfully nasty and gross and hurling pasta related insults at Mario and Luigi. Still entertaining, but definitely not the Bowser we're familiar with today. I think the RPGs were as formative for Bowser's modern characterization as SM64 was for Mario's. He had no consistency before them, and while how commanding a presence he is still varies from game to game, his hamminess has been a constant throughout the modern era whenever he's allowed to speak at all.
 
I honestly think Bowser should stay...
My concept could be that a threat even worse than the King of the Koopas himself is approaching the Mushroom Kingdom which has also kidnapped other characters such as Princess Daisy, Wario and Waluigi, Yoshi, etc. Seeing the threat, Peach decides that an alliance with Bowser must be made to defend the two of their kingdoms while Mario and Luigi go off to rescue their friends and save their respective kingdoms.
 
i honestly think the idea of a new villain who kidnaps the majority of the main cast is better suited to a Waluigi game. He'd be the only one the villain overlooks because the villain sees him as less than useless. Then he gets to prove that wrong by saving everyone (and fighting weird corruptions of them the villain creates)
 
Princess Mindy said:
In fact I'd go so far as to argue that the RPGs had a tangible influence on Bowser's characterization in mainline games. There's not much to him in SM64, but by Sunshine and especially Galaxy he really feels closer to his RPG incarnation. Obviously he's much more of a threat in most mainline games since he's always the primary antagonist, but when I see Bowser's dialogue in Galaxy, there's no doubt in my mind that's the same guy who existed in the Paper Mario series. That hamminess IS Bowser, take that away and what you're left with isn't Bowser. It's a guy who looks like him but is functionally just a big raging obstacle.

Prior to the RPGs, most speaking roles Bowser got were nearly unrecognizable to his current form, like the cartoons' King Koopa whose primary trait was being boastfully nasty and gross and hurling pasta related insults at Mario and Luigi. Still entertaining, but definitely not the Bowser we're familiar with today. I think the RPGs were as formative for Bowser's modern characterization as SM64 was for Mario's. He had no consistency before them, and while how commanding a presence he is still varies from game to game, his hamminess has been a constant throughout the modern era whenever he's allowed to speak at all.
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You're also forgetting Mario Party, which gave Bowser plenty of characterization and dialogue.

 
Xiahou Ba said:
Thats the thing though, as opposed to other silent eldritch abominations in other JRPGs without character traits, Bowser is charismatic and entertaining, and his dialogue is one of the best parts of Paper Mario titles. Sticker Star took it away, which makes it even worse than if it was a generic villain that doesnt talk at all.
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I'm not even talking about that. Most Dragon Quest villains you only see at the very end of the game. They are actual antagonists, not abominations.
 
Xiahou Ba said:
You're also forgetting Mario Party, which gave Bowser plenty of characterization and dialogue.

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True. The RPGs didn't exclusively do it. But a lot of his modern traits can be traced back to SMRPG which predates Mario Party. I think Mario Party's take on Bowser is uniquely trolly though. That mf fucks with people not because it gets him anything, but just because he can and it's funny. Sometimes he gets money or stars out of it i guess, but he does usually leave that part up to chance.
 
I mean Bowser's personality, much as I love it, is fairly stock. All brawn little brain, huge ego, etc etc.

Its like how the super show made luigi the reluctant coward to Mario's fearless heroism a good 15ish years before Luigi's Mansion came out.
 
They're better when he's NOT the Primary Antagonist;

Seriously;

After PM64; Bowser should NOT be the Primary antagonist in a Mario RPG;

That's my biggest gripes with Sticker Star, Color Splash, Dream Team & Paper Jam;

Because they just made Bowser the main antagonist Repeatedly;

When the RPGs are SUPPOSED to be DIFFERENT from the mainline Entries; Not One-to-One

Let Bowser be the main antagonist in the MAINLINE Series; NOT THE SPIN-OFF RPGs!!
 
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MartinetIsBestMario said:
They're better when he's NOT the Primary Antagonist;

Seriously;

After PM64; Bowser should NOT be the Primary antagonist in a Mario RPG;

That's my biggest gripes with Sticker Star, Color Splash, Dream Team & Paper Jam;

Because they just made Bowser the main antagonist Repeatedly;

When the RPGs are SUPPOSED to be DIFFERENT from the mainline Entries; Not One-to-One

Let Bowser be the main antagonist in the MAINLINE Series; NOT THE SPIN-OFF RPGs!!
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Why do you always have to be so aggressive in your posts? Bowser's always be a foe to Mario and co. There are times where it makes sense to have him team up with the heroes to stop a greater threat, but other times there is no bigger problem.
 
Sparks said:
Why do you always have to be so aggressive in your posts? Bowser's always be a foe to Mario and co. There are times where it makes sense to have him team up with the heroes to stop a greater threat, but other times there is no bigger problem.
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Because

The Spin-offs are MEANT to be Different from the Mainline games;

and I Really hate how Sticker Star, Color Splash, Dream Team, & Paper Jam just made Bowser the main antagonist[that's what the mainline games are for; NOT the Spin-offs; Heck; Bowser even gets to race go-carts with his archnemesis(for some reason)] like he is in every single mainline game

I Really Prefer it when Bowser's Not the Primary Antagonist of the RPGs; like in Superstar Saga, Partners in Time, Bowser's Inside Story, Thousand Year Door, Super Paper Mario, Brothership, M&R: Kingdom Battle; & M&R: Sparks of Hope

I Like those games; Because Bowser wasn't relegated to the main antagonist in those games; Because not every spin-off game needs to have Bowser as the Main Antagonist; that's what the mainline games are for
 
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