Mario Kart 8 / Mario Kart 8 Deluxe

Re: Mario Kart 8

MnSG said:
Mister Wu said:
Define dead last, though.
What I liked about distance-basedness is exactly that: at the beginning someone must be 12th, but this doesn't mean they must get an extremely powerful item because of that, as they are very near the 1st. Same thing if a cluster happens during the race, and the 1st happens to be just slightly ahead of the 12th. The 15 seconds initial limiter only fixes the case of the first item boxes, not all the others. Again, don't think Mario Kart 8 is an appropriate example of distance-basedness and all distance-based systems must work like MK8, I actually think they shouldn't work at all like that.
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Maybe for the first 30 seconds of a race, all racers would only get weak items. Once 30 seconds have passed, the 12th place racer will start acquiring Golden Mushrooms, Stars, Bullet Bills, or Lightning from the item boxes.
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Put 15 seconds instead of 30 and you literally have cited Mario Kart 7 item probability distributions for VS races (both online and offline), which effectively worked well and are widely praised.
My point is just that the distance-based system could be refined to see what interesting things can come out. Coins and Bloopers in 12th place aren't mandatory for it. Actually, even with MK8 It would be just needed to set a 2nd distribution at 1 distance unit not having them and this issue would be fixed (1 distance unit is pretty much less than the length of most vehicles). As unintuitive as it may seem, a distance-based system could also fix some issues.
Otherwise, the developers just need to repeat MK7 system tweaking probabilities and timings and everything will be fine.
 
Re: Mario Kart 8

Mister Wu said:
Cirdec said:
I agree with this, bad item distribution will remain even with two items. All other games allow to hold two items and have an item distribution based on ranking, with no useless coin.
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I'll be honest: I don't agree with distance-based being detrimental. I anything, getting a Blue Shell at the first item box in Mario Kart: Double Dash!! was broken as well. Or getting three Red Shells and maybe an additional one in 1st place. Or the Lightning at a ridiculously low distance from the 1st in MK64, because you can get it in 2nd place and there's no distance table that prevents you from doing so. And those games had a position-based system.
I even have visual anecdotes: here's the Blue Shell
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Maybe I'm a bit near the 1st, but the game doesn't know it. The result?

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And before saying that with position-based systems you never had any problems with making a comeback, look here:
POnMLau.png


And this was with double items.

If Mario Kart 8 item system doesn't work, I think it's due to many different causes, and the distance-based part likely doesn't work because, as the PRIMA guide revealed, these distributions were probably meant for a position-based system and then recycled using distances that more often than not don't work. In fact, using item probability distributions with only one item, it has been discovered that the time constraints present in MK7 for obtaining the items are still there: you cannot get triple Red shells, Lightning or Bullet Bill in the first 15 seconds, and you can get a Lighting only 30 seconds after one has been obtained (more than one player can obtain it at the same time, though). Same for the Blue Shell. Every time you try to obtain a non-allowed item, you get other items or, if there are none, (like in the cases tested), a Coin item. If the system was distance-based from the beginning, well-thought distances and probabilities would have done the job and especially the inital 15 seconds would have been useless, but at this point it is becoming more and more evident that the item system at the beginning was going to just be MK7 one with new items (in fact, the order of the items in the in-game tables is the same, with two MK7-specific items, Super Leaf and Lucky 7, being replaced, Test3 and Test4 now being actual items and the Crazy 8 being added at the end) and then changed at the last moment for unknown reasons. And, as expected, last-minute changes don't work beautifully.
So don't judge the idea of being distance-based bad just because Mario Kart 8 doesn't work and gives you Triple Red shells at 400 units of distance (less than a second even in 150cc's typical speed of 8 units/frame!), Crazy 8 at 1000 units (well, at least it's around two seconds in 150cc, never mind 200cc...), Blue Shell at 3300 units (around 7 seconds in 150cc) and Lightning at 5500 units (around 11 seconds, but only in 150cc...) and even has distributions in which triple items coexist with single ones and in general there is a lack of balance in the effectiveness of the items received within the same distribution, making the races more based on RNG than they should be (I got a Coin and the player in front of me Triple Red Shells!).
If anything, I like the idea of a system in which I cannot get overpowered items such as Lightning or Bullet Bill right behind the 1st just because I'm 12th. Or, where obtaining a Lightning, Bullet Bill or Blue Shell in 2nd place means that, well, I'm going to end the race in 2nd place unless the frontrunner screws up badly. I'm not even deterred by the idea of getting a Green Shell or a Banana in 12th place, if I'm anyway near the frontrunner and all the players in front of me get those items as well. Although, with a proper distance-based system, it might be possible to give slightly more powerful but not overpowered items to the people who are a little behind without giving away free wins because RNG rulez.
Unfortunately, in my opinion MK8's implementation of a distance-based system was poorly made, but I now really like the idea and would like to see it propely implemented before making a final judgement on it.
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You bring issues previous Mario Kart had with the item distribution, that Mario Kart 7 fixed. You still have a point if what you say about the item distribution of MK8 changed to distance based at last minute is true. I wonder why they changed it, MK7 item distribution was perfect imo. No need to fix things that are not broken.

The main issue I have with MK8 item distribution is you can't make comebacks, as if you are not very far from the first, you get bad items that won't help you much, and if you are very far, a good item is not enough to comeback, not to mention they nerfed mushrooms and stars for no reason. Trying to change the frequencies of items may help, but it is not going to fix the fact that getting a Lightening, a Blue Shell or a Bullet Bill should never be an option when you're second as you're making sure the others behind won't catch you. Same as getting a Green Shell as 12th when the guys in front of you got better items because they just were some centimeters in front of you. So in the end, I still believe a distance based system is not better, and the side effects of having a position based item distribution (such as the possibility to get a star or a blue shell when you're near the first) are a necessary evil to make the game fun.
 
Re: Mario Kart 8

Cirdec said:
You bring issues previous Mario Kart had with the item distribution, that Mario Kart 7 fixed. You still have a point if what you say about the item distribution of MK8 changed to distance based at last minute is true. I wonder why they changed it, MK7 item distribution was perfect imo. No need to fix things that are not broken.
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I won't argue against this, since so much of the item system is borrowed from MK7 and since I've heard much praise toward that item system (and admittedly, time limiters are a very good idea to try to compensate some of the flaws of MKW), they could just keep it in its entirety.

Cirdec said:
The main issue I have with MK8 item distribution is you can't make comebacks, as if you are not very far from the first, you get bad items that won't help you much, and if you are very far, a good item is not enough to comeback, not to mention they nerfed mushrooms and stars for no reason.
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While mushrooms are still nerfed, Stars finally work in 200cc, increasing maximum speed like they should. They were definitely buggy.
Also, keep in mind that, even though I don't think MK8 is a good example of a distance-based system, what you say about making a comeback isn't necessarily true for 200cc, as there the Stars work, the speed is 1.5 the speed of 150cc while the distances of the item probability distributions seem unchanged. I say so because there have been a few comebacks even in my last session, invlving both me and the other players.

Cirdec said:
Trying to change the frequencies of items may help, but it is not going to fix the fact that getting a Lightening, a Blue Shell or a Bullet Bill should never be an option when you're second as you're making sure the others behind won't catch you.
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Here I don't fully understand, if you mean that it's unfair that the 2nd gets powerful items, those behind, since they are at a greater distance, should get even better ones or similar ones. If you mean otherwise (that the player in 2nd place doesn't get powerful enough items), well, the position-based system doesn't help either, it doesn't work well when the 2nd is far from the 1st, and it must not, as otherwise powerful items in 2nd place would break it; that's one of the shortcomings of position-based systems.

Cirdec said:
Same as getting a Green Shell as 12th when the guys in front of you got better items because they just were some centimeters in front of you.
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Well, a properly designed distance-based system works on the reverse: those in front of you are nearer the 1st, hence they get less pwoerful items. What you see in MK8 most of the time is the same distribution having both powerful and useless items, resulting in the famous coins in 12th when the guy in front of you has a Super Horn and destroys everyone. We can also discuss whether the transition from attack-based distributions to boost-based distributions makes sense, but that was already a MK7 thing.

Cirdec said:
So in the end, I still believe a distance based system is not better, and the side effects of having a position based item distribution (such as the possibility to get a star or a blue shell when you're near the first) are a necessary evil to make the game fun.
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As I showed you, I can pretty much exchange the "distance" and "position" and give a different example (e.g. getting a green shell when you're near the 1st, but in 12th place) and the sentence would work for me.

I agree that MK7 item system would have probably worked better in MK8; still, now that I've seen the idea of distance-based systems, I'm intrigued by it and its possibilities and I would really like a new system rebuilt from the ground-up in this perspective to see what might happen. In the worst case, they could add the option of having MK7 system which will surely work and revert to it in the next game.
 
Re: Mario Kart 8

Rosalina >>>>>>>>> Waluigi anyway...

I hope that now that there are two items they say something like "You know what? Why not try two racers per kart again?" and thus Double Dash 2 will be born.

One can dream...
 
Re: Mario Kart 8

Mario Kart 8 Switch will probably come with a huge balancing patch, as we saw with the dual item mechanic. Looking forward to holding Blue Shells until I'm second!
 
Re: Mario Kart 8

memoryman3 said:
Mario Kart 8 Switch will probably come with a huge balancing patch, as we saw with the dual item mechanic. Looking forward to holding Blue Shells until I'm second!
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Until the Lightning shows up to take away all of your items. Without a touch screen, you won't be able to tell what your opponents are holding.
 
Re: Mario Kart 8

Huh? Isn't it already toggleable? I don't see why they need to strip that feature.
 
Re: Mario Kart 8

I was thinking this because you had the Gamepad to look down at the minimap so they allowed you to toggle whether you wanted the minimap on the TV or not. But with the Switch, the minimap is permanent since you don't really have a Gamepad to look at. Also in the Switch trailer, the minimap was on.
 
Re: Mario Kart 8

Anser said:
Rosalina >>>>>>>>> Waluigi anyway...

I hope that now that there are two items they say something like "You know what? Why not try two racers per kart again?" and thus Double Dash 2 will be born.

One can dream...
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Would two people in a kart really add anything? The only real noticeable difference in the original Double Dash was the ability to hold two items at once, but this demo proves holding two items can work without an extra character. Besides that, another Double Dash I feel would force the developers to include characters they wouldn't want to just so every racer has a default partner that makes at least some sense. And that might end up leading to things like Pink Gold Peach's return and adding another baby so it's an even 6. I couldn't even imagine how they would handle trying to pair off the Koopalings.
 
Re: Mario Kart 8

Magikrazy said:
Anser said:
Rosalina >>>>>>>>> Waluigi anyway...

I hope that now that there are two items they say something like "You know what? Why not try two racers per kart again?" and thus Double Dash 2 will be born.

One can dream...
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Would two people in a kart really add anything? The only real noticeable difference in the original Double Dash was the ability to hold two items at once, but this demo proves holding two items can work without an extra character. Besides that, another Double Dash I feel would force the developers to include characters they wouldn't want to just so every racer has a default partner that makes at least some sense. And that might end up leading to things like Pink Gold Peach's return and adding another baby so it's an even 6. I couldn't even imagine how they would handle trying to pair off the Koopalings.
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Pink Gold Peach has already returned for Switch...
 
Re: Mario Kart 8

Well in Double Dash, you can punch/kick people in the face and that was fun.

Baby Mario, Baby Luigi, Toad, and Toadette also had glitchy animations when punching/kicking while holding items that make them look at you eg bananas, fake item boxes, mushrooms.
 
Re: Mario Kart 8

Baby Luigi said:
Well in Double Dash, you can punch/kick people in the face and that was fun.
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But I mean it wouldn't be hard at all to incorporate that into a Mario Kart without the two person gimmick.
 
Re: Mario Kart 8

or at least bring back the ''Attack'' voice clips every character has everytime they bump into each other in MKWii
 
Re: Mario Kart 8

Characters can also get dragged behind the vehicle, making Mario Kart more violent.
 
Re: Mario Kart 8

Rusty Bucket Bay said:
Baby Luigi said:
Characters can also get dragged behind the vehicle, making Mario Kart more violent.
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WAAAAAHAAAA! MAAAMMAAAAA! Oh!
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There was a glitch where Baby Luigi was dragging indefinitely. He was like a corpse on the ground. He could still toss items too.

I don't know how to activate it again but it involved Thwomps, Lightning, and explosions.
 
Re: Mario Kart 8

Swiftie_Luma said:
Rusty Bucket Bay said:
WAAAAAHAAAA! MAAAMMAAAAA! Oh!
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WOAOAOAOAOHHH NOOOOOOOOOUUUU - Daisy, 2003
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WAH WAH WAH, WOOOooo-WHEEEEEEEE!(WTF?) OWOWOWOWOWOW! WOOOooo-WHEEEEEEEE!! - Mario, weirdly having the time of his life.
 
Re: Mario Kart 8

*noises that are hard to type out on a keyboard*
 
Re: Mario Kart 8

WYYYYYYRAAARRGHH! WYYYYYYRAAARRGHH! RAM! RAM!

translation: sad noise, sad noise, happy character select noise, happy character select noise.
 
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