Echo Fighter-specific wants and don't wants

Dr. Mario

Mushroom Kingdom's OG Woo Meister
Echo fighters are allowed to have different final smashes, but with grabs, maybe Mr L strangles people with his handkerchief.
 

J-Yoshi64

Always remembering Walkazo
Other echos have things that the character never had in the core games. Daisy has never floated and has never used turnips or a frying pan as weapons, but here we are.
I'm not just a little salty what are you talking about.
 

Wittgenstein

TLW-728 Supercomputer Prototype
I think Mr. L using Brobot could be pulled off without much mechanical variation from the Poltergust Final Smash. Brobot can still inhale opponents and spit them out.
 

Doctor Healmore

Shine Sprite
Poll Committee
Creature from the Depths of Hell Itself said:
I'd rather have one brand-new fighter than five echos.
Not all Echo Fighters are just glorified palette swaps, though. That's just Dark Pit and Daisy (and maybe Lucina).
 

Jigglypurin

My cursor has blood on it.
Banned User
YoshiFlutterJump said:
Creature from the Depths of Hell Itself said:
I'd rather have one brand-new fighter than five echos.
Not all Echo Fighters are just glorified palette swaps, though. That's just Dark Pit and Daisy (and maybe Lucina).
Richter?
 

Doctor Healmore

Shine Sprite
Poll Committee
Marchionne Evangelisti said:
Dr. Mario?

Oh wait he's not an echo
Dr. Mario definitely should be an echo if Ken is.

Creature from the Depths of Hell Itself said:
YoshiFlutterJump said:
Creature from the Depths of Hell Itself said:
I'd rather have one brand-new fighter than five echos.
Not all Echo Fighters are just glorified palette swaps, though. That's just Dark Pit and Daisy (and maybe Lucina).
Richter?
I dunno, never used him and rarely fought him.
 

Dr. Eggman

I am the enemy, I will succeed
Marchionne Evangelisti said:
Dr. Mario?

Oh wait he's not an echo
Dr. Mario has a different Back Throw, Down-B and Down Air, his Up-B hitboxes are heavily modified, and he deals more damage but moves slower.

Yep, Dr. Mario is exactly the same as Mario.

YoshiFlutterJump said:
Creature from the Depths of Hell Itself said:
YoshiFlutterJump said:
Creature from the Depths of Hell Itself said:
I'd rather have one brand-new fighter than five echos.
Not all Echo Fighters are just glorified palette swaps, though. That's just Dark Pit and Daisy (and maybe Lucina).
Richter?
I dunno, never used him and rarely fought him.
His only difference is that his Down-B has an Aura effect rather then Fire, meaning it can kill Red Pikmin but can't explode bombs.
 

Koops

King of cowards.
Dr Mario is definitely not exactly the same as Mario. Heavier, Better Neutral b with more damage and knockback, a spiking dair, Tornado as a down special, and overall he is slower but more powerful.

Only downside to me with him is the recovery. Can be hard to work around.
 

Dr. Mario

Mushroom Kingdom's OG Woo Meister
Every trait of Dr. Mario works differently from Mario. He has a pretty different playstyle than Mario as a result. He also has very specials from Mario. I find the idea that people are baffled why Dr. Mario is not an echo baffling. Do they just not use Dr. Mario enough?
 

Doctor Healmore

Shine Sprite
Poll Committee
LeftyGreenMario said:
Every trait of Dr. Mario works differently from Mario. He has a pretty different playstyle than Mario as a result. He also has very specials from Mario. I find the idea that people are baffled why Dr. Mario is not an echo baffling. Do they just not use Dr. Mario enough?
Dr. Mario has almost the exact same moveset as Mario, even though he has many gameplay differences from Mario. He's like Ken, who has the exact same moveset as Ryu but with numerous gameplay differences.

The reason that Ken is considered an echo and Dr. Mario isn't is that Dr. Mario is considered the same character as Mario, and I'm pretty sure that Sakurai said that an echo had to be a unique character in his respective universe.
 

Dr. Mario

Mushroom Kingdom's OG Woo Meister
Well, there's this too. Older post, but yah.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77367625?page=1 said:
Echoes all have a few differences from their base fighter. This can be anything from a slightly higher run speed to a completely unique move to a hitbox that's a pixel shorter. Doesn't matter what's unique, but the other attributes and moves are all 1:1 with their base fighter. Dark Pit for example has a different FTilt, Side B, and Neutral B, but Fair still has the same hitboxes, launch angle, damage, knockback, frame data, etc. For Chrom and Lucina it's debatable because they don't technically share any 1:1 moves besides grabs, but the damage multiplier is consistent and everything besides that is 1:1 so I'd say they still count.

However, you can't apply this same idea to Doc, because he does not share a single 1:1 attribute with Mario. Using Smash 4 stats since the ones for Ultimate aren’t known yet:
- Doc is slightly shorter
- Most of his moves have a damage multiplier of 1.12
- He has a slower walk speed
- And Run Speed
- And Air Speed
- And Air Accel
- And Jump
- And Double Jump (For reference, all Ken has is walk and run speed)
- Doesn't crouch as low
- Jab's knockback is weight dependent, has different launch angles on the first 2 hit, has more endlag on all 3 hits, and doesn't link into itself at higher percents
- FTilt has more active frames
- Up Tilt deals more damage than Mario's, can kill, but can't combo
- Dash Attack has different knockback and a different launch angle
- FSmash's sweet spot is in a different part of his arm, has a different type of hitbox, has less range, and has much more knockback
- Up Smash has a completely different launch angle that sends opponent's diagonally, and has different knockback, as well as more active frames
- All of his Smash Attacks do more Shield Damage
- All aerials have more landing lag
- Doc's sex kick nair is reversed, hitting the opponent more at the end of the move than at the beginning. It also has less active frames
- Fair can't spike, does more damage in some situations, less damage in other situations, less knockback in some situations, and more knockback in other situations
- Bair has more active frames and more damage at the beginning of the move
- Up Air does less knockback and has a different launch angle
- Dair is just a different move
- BThrow and UThrow do more damage and knockback
- DThrow does more knockback and a different angle
- Neutral B has one less bounce and a higher angle, as well as can't be absorbed
- Side B has more active frames, a different hitbox and doesn't stall
- Up B doesn't go as far, has a sweet spot, isn't multihit, doesn't have invincibility on startup, and has more active frames
- Down B is just a different move

Only move that is 1:1 is FThrow, and even then it still has the damage multiplier to make it different.

For Ken:
- Higher walk speed
- Higher run speed
- Shoryuken is stronger and is multihit (same damage in total)
- Tatsu is weaker and is multihit (same damage in total)
- Hadoken does less damage
- FSmash is different
- Focus is different
- Nair is different
- Up Air is different
- HCF command is a roundhouse kick instead of Shakunetsu
- QCD command actually exists, it's also a roundhouse kick
- Heavy FTilt is different
- Heavy Jab is different
- Back Throw is the same move but you roll back before using it

Doc doesn't share any 1:1 moves with Mario, Ken shares most of his moves 1:1 with Ryu.
 

J-Yoshi64

Always remembering Walkazo
And somehow, Pichu isn't an echo.
 

Koops

King of cowards.
And Lucina is closer to Marth than Pichu is to Pikachu.

In fact Lucina only has one difference from Marth, being the consistent damage throughout her sword.

So yeah, exact same moveset, speed and weight, but that one thing actually does alter her playstyle quite a bit.
 

winstein

Justice is not limited, it is a universal quality
I am afraid that when the term "echo fighter" is defined, any fighter that is labelled as an echo has to stick with the definition and can't further differentiate themselves, unlike Melee's echo fighters who managed to become different thanks to Brawl differentiating each character, ending up becoming their own fighters and become unfitting of the title "echo fighter". Unless the next game has the same approach as Brawl's character differentiation, I can't expect any interesting ways to differentiate each character further.

Thank you for reading.
 

winstein

Justice is not limited, it is a universal quality
Striker Luigi said:
Ever heard of "Luigification" ?
If this post is addressed to me, then yes, I have heard of it. As I have put in my examples, fighters in the original 64 and Melee got a chance to become different as to be different. This included Luigi (who was introduced in 64), who got a new Side B and a different Final Smash that are different from Mario's, for example. Even Dr. Mario differentiated himself by ironically not being different, since Mario himself received changes in the move to Brawl. What about Lucina and Dark Pit? Between 4 and Ultimate, what notable changes do both get to further differentiate themselves from their original counterparts?

As I have mentioned earlier, I do wish the next Smash game has the approach of differentiating every character, most notably veterans.

Thank you for reading.
 
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