Confused about the wiki's Super Mario (series) page

[Legault]

http://www.mariowiki.com/Super_Mario_(series)

According to the above page, the Super Mario games represent "the biggest and most important sub-series of the Mario series." As such, determining which games are a part of the sub-series and which aren't seems fairly important, and I'm not sure I agree with the selection / location of games on that page. In particular:

-Neither Yoshi's Island nor Wario Land are included despite being 2D platformers, made by Nintendo, with the phrase "Super Mario" in their full titles (something which has led the official Wikipedia page to include both on their list of Super Mario titles). Though it could be argued that neither game features Mario as a playable character and that the level design doesn't "feel" like a typical Mario title, the same could be said of the "feeling" games like Sunshine had. Is Mario being the main character a requirement for being a Super Mario game? And if that's the criteria being employed here, then why?

-The absence of the first two Super Mario Land games is very confusing. They're 2D platformers made by Nintendo which star Mario; how are they not Super Mario games? Calling them their own sub-series would be like calling the NES trilogy a sub-series or the NSMB games a sub-series.

-3D Land is included in the main Super Mario series even when the other Land games are not. On the discussion page, someone mentioned that 3D Land is "considered" a part of the main series, but provided no references or argumentation. This makes little sense to me.

-The G&W Super Mario Bros. is neither a port nor a remake, but rather an entirely new game. Why isn't it treated as such?

I'm sure these have been talked about before, but I couldn't find anything. If someone could help me understand these decisions, that'd be great!

EDIT: A formal proposal has finally been put up. You can find and discuss it here: http://www.mariowiki.com/MarioWiki:Proposals#Comments

 

[Knife]

I always thought the Super Mario series was a bucket term. In my opinion, everything that includes "Super Mario..." is part of the the Super Mario series. I don't think it matters whether Mario is the main character or not. But essentially, "Super Mario series" is a fan term, which has not been fully expanded on by Nintendo.

By the way, Wikipedia isn't any more official than us.

 

[Legault]

Even if Super Mario is a bucket term, I'd like to see some consistency. Why is 3D Land included, but not Land 1 or 2? Why is SMBG&W placed in the Ports/Remakes section when it clearly isn't? Super Mario is my favorite series, so I was just hoping to understand the reasoning behind some of these decisions (as well as maybe make adjustments if necessary).

Oh, and I put "official" in italics because it was tongue-in-cheek.

 

[GalacticPetey]

Even if Super Mario is a bucket term, I'd like to see some consistency. Why is 3D Land included, but not Land 1 or 2? Why is SMBG&W placed in the Ports/Remakes section when it clearly isn't? Super Mario is my favorite series, so I was just hoping to understand the reasoning behind some of these decisions (as well as maybe make adjustments if necessary).

Oh, and I put "official" in italics because it was tongue-in-cheek.

Because 3D Land is vastly different from SML 1&2. Super Mario Land is it's own ting.

 

[Legault]

Even if Super Mario is a bucket term, I'd like to see some consistency. Why is 3D Land included, but not Land 1 or 2? Why is SMBG&W placed in the Ports/Remakes section when it clearly isn't? Super Mario is my favorite series, so I was just hoping to understand the reasoning behind some of these decisions (as well as maybe make adjustments if necessary).

Oh, and I put "official" in italics because it was tongue-in-cheek.

Because 3D Land is vastly different from SML 1&2. Super Mario Land is it's own ting.

3D Land is vastly different from Super Mario Bros. 3. Super Mario World is vastly different from Super Mario 64, which is vastly different from Super Mario Sunshine. Innovation has been common in this series, yet it shouldn't prevent them from being grouped together. Similarities between Land 1 / 2 and 3D Land:

-platformers
-made by Nintendo
-Mario is the main character
-"Super Mario" in the title

 

[Glowsquid]

-3D Land is included in the main Super Mario series even when the other Land games are not. On the discussion page, someone mentioned that 3D Land is "considered" a part of the main series, but provided no references or argumentation. This makes little sense to me.

The first two Land games were done by a different team (Shigeru Miyamoto and Takashi Tezuka have nothing to do with either, for one) and have a different aesthetic to them (different cast of character/enemies, music, world archetypes etc). 3D Land, while mostly done by new hires and very different from the previous 3D games, sticks closer to the rest of the series and has more supervision from veteran of the series. I guess that's why it's not lumped with the other two, though I don't know why the first two Land games are left out of the page, either.

Why is SMBG&W placed in the Ports/Remakes section when it clearly isn't?

I'd chalk it up to the obscurity of the game and the wiki's hive mind generally poor grasp of what is a remake or a port. For ex, the GBA ports of the DKC series are frequently called "remakes" on wiki pages, and I really don't understand why.

anyway, I moved SMBG&W's place on the page.

 

[Legault]

The first two Land games were done by a different team (Shigeru Miyamoto and Takashi Tezuka have nothing to do with either, for one) and have a different aesthetic to them (different cast of character/enemies, music, world archetypes etc). 3D Land, while mostly done by new hires and very different from the previous 3D games, sticks closer to the rest of the series and has more supervision from veteran of the series.

Imagine the next non-"New" Mario comes out for the WiiU in 2013. Imagine it is, like Sunshine and Galaxy, a departure from traditional 3D Mario gaming. Imagine Miyamoto is merely overseeing the project and isn't directly involved. Are we really going to argue it's not a "Super Mario" game? Of course not, yet according to the presumed standards that keep the Land games off the main page, it won't be a Super Mario game. That's a little hard to swallow. Miyamoto was the father of the series, but there's no reason why other directors can't lead Super Mario projects.

(Incidentally, the NSMB games also didn't involve Miyamoto, yet they're included.)

anyway, I moved SMBG&W's place on the page.

Great! Although since the list is chronological, shouldn't it be above SMB2?

 

[Glowsquid]

I'm not trying to justify keeping off the Land series (tbh, I don't agree with that either), merely speculating as to why the list is organized the way it currently is.

Great! Although since the list is chronological, shouldn't it be above SMB2?

My bad, corrected it.

 

[Toad Eightyfive]

http://www.mariowiki.com/Super_Mario_(series)

According to the above page, the Super Mario games represent "the biggest and most important sub-series of the Mario series."

I find that to be a bit subjective myself, but I agree for the most part.

As such, determining which games are a part of the sub-series and which aren't seems fairly important, and I'm not sure I agree with the selection / location of games on that page. In particular:

Yes, it's very important. Let's delve in, shall we?

-Neither Yoshi's Island nor Wario Land are included

I dunno about Wario Land, but Yoshi's Island has been described again and again as the first game in the Yoshi series. As far as I'm concerned, it's not in the Mario series, let alone the more prestigious Super Mario.

despite being 2D platformers, made by Nintendo, with the phrase "Super Mario" in their full titles (something which has led the official Wikipedia page to include both on their list of Super Mario titles).

If we included every game that contained "Super Mario" in its title and was made by Nintendo, pretty much every Mario game ever would be in.

Also don't you dare call Wikipedia official.

Though it could be argued that neither game features Mario as a playable character

And that's the fucking point.

and that the level design doesn't "feel" like a typical Mario title, the same could be said of the "feeling" games like Sunshine had.

One problem with your analogy: Mario's fucking playable in that game.

Is Mario being the main character a requirement for being a Super Mario game?

Yes.

And if that's the criteria being employed here, then why?

The reason should be obvious, Legault. If you're going to have a game in the Super Mario series, then it should be about fucking Super Mario.

-The absence of the first two Super Mario Land games is very confusing.

Actually, no. They're included. Or they should be. Someone goofed.

They're 2D platformers made by Nintendo which star Mario; how are they not Super Mario games? Calling them their own sub-series would be like calling the NES trilogy a sub-series or the NSMB games a sub-series.

Actually, I do consider the first four console games and NSMB to be separate sub-series, engulfed within the Mario series. Here's how I see it:

Mario Series
Super Mario Series
Classic Series:
SMB1
SMB:LL
SMB2, etc.

NSMB Series:
NSMB
NSMBW etc.

SML Series:
SML
SML2 etc.

3D Games:
64
Sunshine
Galaxies 1 and 2
SMB3DL

Yoshi Series:
YI
Y's S

And you probably get the idea.

I consider the Land games to be part of the Super Mario series, but within its own series subset.

-3D Land is included in the main Super Mario series even when the other Land games are not. On the discussion page, someone mentioned that 3D Land is "considered" a part of the main series, but provided no references or argumentation. This makes little sense to me.

That's because 3D Land has absolutely nothing to do with the Land games other than sharing the name. It belongs in the 3D subcategory, not the Land subcategory.

-The G&W Super Mario Bros. is neither a port nor a remake, but rather an entirely new game. Why isn't it treated as such?

Because it isn't such. It's an entirely separate game that happens to share the name.

I'm sure these have been talked about before, but I couldn't find anything.

That's because no one has had a problem with it 'til now.

If someone could help me understand these decisions, that'd be great!

You're welcome.

 

[Knife]

http://www.mariowiki.com/Super_Mario_(series)

According to the above page, the Super Mario games represent "the biggest and most important sub-series of the Mario series."

I find that to be a bit subjective myself, but I agree for the most part.

As such, determining which games are a part of the sub-series and which aren't seems fairly important, and I'm not sure I agree with the selection / location of games on that page. In particular:

Yes, it's very important. Let's delve in, shall we?

-Neither Yoshi's Island nor Wario Land are included

I dunno about Wario Land, but Yoshi's Island has been described again and again as the first game in the Yoshi series. As far as I'm concerned, it's not in the Mario series, let alone the more prestigious Super Mario.

despite being 2D platformers, made by Nintendo, with the phrase "Super Mario" in their full titles (something which has led the official Wikipedia page to include both on their list of Super Mario titles).

If we included every game that contained "Super Mario" in its title and was made by Nintendo, pretty much every Mario game ever would be in.

Also don't you dare call Wikipedia official.