chibizombie
"Headshot" <<< my favorite quote in any game...
I like to shoot people out of canons does that count as canon?(jk)
Canonicity
- Thread starter Stumpers
- Start date
PaperStriker
I propose for the location going here.
Has Nintendo even said once that SMB is canon?
Or SML2?
Or MP5?
:P
Or SML2?
Or MP5?
:P
The edutainment games and Hotel Mario may not be very well linked to the Marioverse. But then again, they don't contradict anything. Except for Mario being a not silent protagonist. But does that really matter? As a matter of fact, I started to abandon this theory when Toad wasn't used to Mario being so silent in SMRPG, implying that, even if offscreen, this isn't usually the case. Plus, in the Paper Mario games, you can clearly see Mario talking, you just don't know his exact words. And you can make him say things in those games too. And besides, do you really expect the world's smartest Goomba (Until the next game) to fill in for every word Mario says? So in short, it's safest to say that Mario is silent when he chooses to be. Just like Luigi. In all Paper Mario games, he is perfectly capable of a civil conversation (Minus the attention), yet in M&L:SS, he's just as silent as Mario. As for TV, I'm just looking at the least likely thing there is: Mama Luigi. And yet, there isn't a problem, so long as we assume neither the Yoshi in SMW2, nor the Baby Yoshi in YIDS, were THE Yoshi, who was actually born, sometime during SMW. Heck, is there even a THE Yoshi? How do we know that the Yoshi in Mario Party Advance is the same one we see in Mario Kart 64? Some may argue that character personalities from TV series don't match the ones in games. The only one I notice right now is Yoshi's childish and always hungry personality. As well as my rant from before, there's also the possibility he grew up after SMW, as he never had much of a personality then. Then there it is. The matching personality, in a likely canonical game: Game & Watch Gallery 3 and 4. In both, the Cement Factory and Chef games depict Yoshi with an obsessive lust for food. My point is proven further in the former game, in which Yoshi cries if he has not been fed in a while. Then there's the comics. Hmm... Super Mario Adventures is, like Mama Luigi, an adaptation of SMW. However, they contradict each other. I'm going to say both are canon, and either Luigi's Memory isn't so good or he wanted to seem more heroic. But even then, Super Mario Adventrures isn't so accurate itself... Remember, it all started when Mario, the princess and I went to dinosaur land for a vacation, as explicitly stated in the manual and the introduction to SMA2, while in the comic, it starts with the Mario Bros. plumbing at Peach's Castle. Then, there's the fact that, while the Koopalings have a certain personality in the cartoons, it appears to be totally different in the Valiant comics. Mario Vs. Wario comics are OK, they actually provide us valuable information on Wario's backstory. And I really don't see anything wrong with those obscure German comics either, besides their story on Wario's origin. And even then, that's just one story. As for remakes, I only consider them canon if they expand the story, like Donkey Kong '94. When this happens, I rule the original versions out of continuity. The SMB anime is OK, but the Super Mario Armada series is out. So is the Movie. The characters are completely different to the ones we know. Ice capades are also okay.
But that was one pointless rant. If we were to ask Nintendo themselves, they would probably say "It's your decision. That's what we like about Mario. We can do pretty much anything without completely rewriting his history."
And as for DKRDS, it's a sequel.
BANJO BACK ON THE WIKI. And Conker.
But that was one pointless rant. If we were to ask Nintendo themselves, they would probably say "It's your decision. That's what we like about Mario. We can do pretty much anything without completely rewriting his history."
And as for DKRDS, it's a sequel.
BANJO BACK ON THE WIKI. And Conker.
B
Blitzwing
Guest
SiFi said:
So, Wizpig had the brillant idea of redoing the same frickin' thing he did in DKR except that he made some of the things easier?
Wow, Wizpig is a genius to redo his plan twice.
- Thread starter
- #32
We are being conjectural because we're trying to make sense out of an episodic series, similar to a TV show, that happens to have "Holiday specials" and no official timeline, so to speak. So what should we do instead? List out the games in release date order and tell them as individual, unrelated stories? Bowser generally references past defeats, so we know that these stories, if viewed individually, are not standalone. Each story at least needs one other in which Bowser is defeated for it to make sense. I'm trying to make sure we don't remove things that shouldn't be removed because of old prejudice against them started by some nobody on the internet years ago (we're not the first to create this idea).
BTW, Ghost Jam, you missed the point of my comment: 3D had just dismissed my rant by saying I was thinking too much and that the old system worked fine (even if it's incorrect?). "They're games. We're a Wiki. We have the games over here, the systems over here, the remakes over there, and the shows over there, and that movie nobody likes (Stumpers' note: I liked it...) as part of the MarioVerse over THERE." It wasn't to say that my rant was official material. The Marioverse is our own invension, so you can do what you want with it, but when it comes to the actual storyline, that's different.
If you feel I'm beating up on 3D, call me on it, (and in his defense I was way too short) but I was just asking that we look towards official Nintendo references to support theories rather than an unofficial concept of separation.
Ok, my stupid bickering aside, we need to determine canonicity and present a new argument. Let's start easy: is the movie canon? Why or why not?
BTW, Ghost Jam, you missed the point of my comment: 3D had just dismissed my rant by saying I was thinking too much and that the old system worked fine (even if it's incorrect?). "They're games. We're a Wiki. We have the games over here, the systems over here, the remakes over there, and the shows over there, and that movie nobody likes (Stumpers' note: I liked it...) as part of the MarioVerse over THERE." It wasn't to say that my rant was official material. The Marioverse is our own invension, so you can do what you want with it, but when it comes to the actual storyline, that's different.
If you feel I'm beating up on 3D, call me on it, (and in his defense I was way too short) but I was just asking that we look towards official Nintendo references to support theories rather than an unofficial concept of separation.
Ok, my stupid bickering aside, we need to determine canonicity and present a new argument. Let's start easy: is the movie canon? Why or why not?
Stumpers said:
Bowser is not a human thing.
He isn't even a dinosaur.
Lena, Iggy and Spike don't exist.
Daisy wasn't born in an egg.
Yoshi's bigger and can take more weight.
Dinohattan doesn't exist.
The usual setting for the Marioverse isn't an alternate dimension.
Meeting Daisy isn't M&L's first great adventure.
What ARE these "official references" you keep qouting, Stumps?!
All I'm saying is we're getting along fine just keeping the TV shows, the movie, and the remakes seperate. I really consider none of those canon. AT ALL.
I do, however, consider every other Mario game canon. Each one, even Hotel Mario, has a little niche in the huge, worldwide story of Mario.
All I'm saying is we're getting along fine just keeping the TV shows, the movie, and the remakes seperate. I really consider none of those canon. AT ALL.
I do, however, consider every other Mario game canon. Each one, even Hotel Mario, has a little niche in the huge, worldwide story of Mario.
- Thread starter
- #35
First of all, I owe you an apology. Second of all, the official sources are the differences in the quotes attached to the seals (you read about 'em) that render the argument that canonicity based on the original seal null. The second one, I could see very much so.
Okay, and then the others were from Miyamoto (read the interview, the URL is on my first post), where he stated that he fully embraced the concept of making serious changes to fit the form of a movie. He does feel, however, that the reason the movie failed was because it stayed too close to the format of a video game. I used this to say that Miyamoto does not inherently reject (as far as he's made public) alternate forms of media. I'm really not sure who we're assuming does so.
Next up is from Yoshiaki Koizumi, who stated that the Mario series was inherently different from game to game because each was working to create the best experience, and that the storyline never got into the way (something he appreciates about the series). So, basically, inherent differences between two creations, including those between video games or between the games and other mediums, are not inherently condemned by Nintendo. I challenge anyone who approves of our canonicity theory (and that is not a bad position at all - it does as you say work), to prove that Nintendo would ban any form of continuity between games and other forms of media simply because they are other forms or for whatever reason you have. Go too it, 3D!
Okay, and then the others were from Miyamoto (read the interview, the URL is on my first post), where he stated that he fully embraced the concept of making serious changes to fit the form of a movie. He does feel, however, that the reason the movie failed was because it stayed too close to the format of a video game. I used this to say that Miyamoto does not inherently reject (as far as he's made public) alternate forms of media. I'm really not sure who we're assuming does so.
Next up is from Yoshiaki Koizumi, who stated that the Mario series was inherently different from game to game because each was working to create the best experience, and that the storyline never got into the way (something he appreciates about the series). So, basically, inherent differences between two creations, including those between video games or between the games and other mediums, are not inherently condemned by Nintendo. I challenge anyone who approves of our canonicity theory (and that is not a bad position at all - it does as you say work), to prove that Nintendo would ban any form of continuity between games and other forms of media simply because they are other forms or for whatever reason you have. Go too it, 3D!
- Thread starter
- #37
My problem is that we've already made assumptions about this, even though, as you and someone else said, there is no known official, golden document describing this. So, all I'm trying to do is make sure that people don't ignore other sources. For example, Mario's page has no section on the movie, yet I'm pretty sure that isn't why it has been blocked from becoming FA. We also aren't detailing the Super Mario Bros. Super Show, thus leaving two huge gaps in the stroyline (the Super Smow specifies that it happens just before and immeadiately following the events of the first Super Mario Bros., so we have a relative place for it in the timeline). These gaps people are content to let sit open because the show is "alternate canon" or, as I would like to change that too, "we only like video games so this stinks canon". It's fine for people to have their own theories, but we shouldn't be neglecting any source, and the concept of alternate canon has caused us to do so.
We like the games and the movies, but by themselves. Is there ANY, ANY way that the movie fits into the canon? At all?
All you're doing is glorifying a few comments that could mean yes or no either way, and trying to make them fit your way. Is the Mortal Kombat movie considered Mortal Kombat canon? Noooooooooo. The same can go with Mario. It was a movie, and a badly done one at that. It doesn't. FIT.
All you're doing is glorifying a few comments that could mean yes or no either way, and trying to make them fit your way. Is the Mortal Kombat movie considered Mortal Kombat canon? Noooooooooo. The same can go with Mario. It was a movie, and a badly done one at that. It doesn't. FIT.
B
Blitzwing
Guest
3Dejong said:
QFT.
I am perfectly fine with putting the cartoon and the movie in an alternate continuity because of the various obvious differences (Bowser... ahem, King Koopa ressembling K. Rool more than Bowser, the Koopalings having different names and appearance, the whole movie... ect). It just annoy me when obscure third-party games are labelled as "non-canon" for stupid reasons.
Stumpers said:
The term 'Marioverse' was first used on the wiki by me and, let me tell you, I'd sorry I ever did. It was intended to aid editors in finding a context with which to work under, not try and establish some canon that never existed. It's expanded what should be a simple matter of documenting information into an endless struggle to find some cannon that doesn't exist.
You ARE over thinking this. The wikis goal is to document VERIFIED information about Mario, this canon crap doesn't fall under that.
In fact, I propose we clearly define what the word 'Marioverse' means as to end this once and for all.
- Thread starter
- #42
I'm sick of hostility, and I don't know how I started is, so I apologize again. Or for the first time if it was something I did since my last apology. Ok, now just so you know: I wrote the rest of this just as I was thinking it, so I'm sorry if it's confusing or whatnot. I'm honestly confused now about what to do, so I hope you can help. And by the way, none of the following should be read in a hostile voice, even if my writing sounds hostile, I don't mean for it to be. Here you go:
I thought we were coming from the same place, but I guess not. I know I've changed my mind since the rant, so here's my goal for the Wiki: As you said, there is no canon. As I said in the rant, we can't look to other series, which separate by medium, for examples. The reason for this is, as you explained, because the "Mario" continuity (assuming it exists) is very vague and therefore requires a lot of conjecture to piece together... mainly because it does not exist... that's kind of a weird sentence, but that's where you're coming from, right? This all sounds very reasonable to me.
But (don't you hate that word...) where does that leave us? Can we even present by series or by any method? I know you don't like the release date theory, and according to games such as Yoshi's Island, we know that the "continuity if it exists" (I need a better way to say this... let me start over...) Okay, so... we know that a time line cannot be inferred by release date because of Yoshi's Island... except hold on. We don't. Who's to say that Baby Mario and Mario are the same person? Ugh... I'm sure there's some form of something that verifies that... ok. Hold up.
I'm confusing myself. Ghost Jam, you're one of the most respective and most experienced users here. Tell me: how would you have us organize the games and other mediums so as not to imply a false timeline? I know you mentioned by series, but who's to say that Mario Golf: Toadstool Tour did not happen before Mario Golf (N64)? Mario Sunshine before 64? Super Mario Bros. 3 before Super Mario Bros. 2 (Japan or USA)?
This is why this is driving me crazy. I want to say there is no canon like you are suggesting, but then it becomes infinitely harder to write on the Wiki. I don't want to heap this on you, but everything I do seems to be wrong according to you, and I'm going to side with you that you're probably right (you've been thinking about this longer, I'm sure).
You should know that the problem I have with canonicity is not so much finding the "right one", but that we have a possible continuity established already, which you can see on "MarioWiki:Canonicity". But if we get rid of that, what are we left with? And, I know (yes KNOW) that to be wrong because it assumes what is and is not part of the canon, which is just as bad as determining the canon on a whim, because we can't create the canon. Because we're not Nintendo. We're here to present facts, right?
I thought we were coming from the same place, but I guess not. I know I've changed my mind since the rant, so here's my goal for the Wiki: As you said, there is no canon. As I said in the rant, we can't look to other series, which separate by medium, for examples. The reason for this is, as you explained, because the "Mario" continuity (assuming it exists) is very vague and therefore requires a lot of conjecture to piece together... mainly because it does not exist... that's kind of a weird sentence, but that's where you're coming from, right? This all sounds very reasonable to me.
But (don't you hate that word...) where does that leave us? Can we even present by series or by any method? I know you don't like the release date theory, and according to games such as Yoshi's Island, we know that the "continuity if it exists" (I need a better way to say this... let me start over...) Okay, so... we know that a time line cannot be inferred by release date because of Yoshi's Island... except hold on. We don't. Who's to say that Baby Mario and Mario are the same person? Ugh... I'm sure there's some form of something that verifies that... ok. Hold up.
I'm confusing myself. Ghost Jam, you're one of the most respective and most experienced users here. Tell me: how would you have us organize the games and other mediums so as not to imply a false timeline? I know you mentioned by series, but who's to say that Mario Golf: Toadstool Tour did not happen before Mario Golf (N64)? Mario Sunshine before 64? Super Mario Bros. 3 before Super Mario Bros. 2 (Japan or USA)?
This is why this is driving me crazy. I want to say there is no canon like you are suggesting, but then it becomes infinitely harder to write on the Wiki. I don't want to heap this on you, but everything I do seems to be wrong according to you, and I'm going to side with you that you're probably right (you've been thinking about this longer, I'm sure).
You should know that the problem I have with canonicity is not so much finding the "right one", but that we have a possible continuity established already, which you can see on "MarioWiki:Canonicity". But if we get rid of that, what are we left with? And, I know (yes KNOW) that to be wrong because it assumes what is and is not part of the canon, which is just as bad as determining the canon on a whim, because we can't create the canon. Because we're not Nintendo. We're here to present facts, right?
B
Blitzwing
Guest
MarioWiki:Canonicity was only created so there would finaly be a guideline to order the games/cartoon/comic books appearances in the various characters article, it was never made to present the MarioWiki version of canon or bullcrap like that.
- Thread starter
- #44
Like Ghost Jam said with Marioverse, though, the term evolved. Same thing here: now you've got editors writing about "alternate canon" and "bullcrap like that" as you put it. The other day I searched canon in the articles and came up with articles saying that the characters had made "non-canon" appearances in the Super Show or what not. The point is not what our intentions were, the point is that we have a problem here: there is no more evidence to indicate that the games were ever meant to be separate from other mediums' storyline than there is to associate the Mario RPG series with the "Biography" section of the articles.
Everyone's been defending our canonicity because it works and, now, because it didn't start out as an attempt to make sense of canon. (why do we call it that, then?) Can you guys pleace read this thing and tell me why it's conjecture is legit? Bolding is my comments.
"As with all fictional universes, the Marioverse has a set of canon, or levels of official material (Here's the beginning: "levels" equals separation in the minds of many, but the big problem is, where is the source for this claim? Like I've mentioned, the Nintendo series F-Zero doesn't separate between it's show and it's games.. The Super Mario Wiki attempts to create the most accurate articles possible, and will turn to different official materials to help understand conflicting issues. (Validity for Blitzwing's statement: here you see the focus... but this sentence says something completely different from the previous one. The first says that Nintendo is separating, this says that the page is just for reference by editors) Video games are of the highest canon, especially video games published by Nintendo (usually with the Official Nintendo Seal, as opposed to Mario's Time Machine and Hotel Mario) (This seal stuff is bogus. Read the stuff I've said about the two offical seals. I've had to repeat it a lot, so you'll find it. :D By the way, why say, "usually", but this has been transfered to all games without the seal.) Both remakes and the original versions have the same level of canon - they are simply alternate versions of the same game. (Your could change this sentence to, "Because Nintendo has not discussed continuity in regards to remakes, both originals and remakes are of equal relivancy to canon." Makes sense, why assume separation when Nintendo hasn't stated it exists?) The events depicted in the games take precedent over other official material. Again, to support Blitz, this refers to the Wiki--if there is a conflict, go with the closest thing to the source. So, why did the Super Show, for example, get shoved to the side when it fits like a glove into the timeline? Please, if you have questions about why this is true, just ask. I don't expect you to have followed the series. This includes instruction manuals, which often have story elements not depicted in the game itself, and official player's guides from Nintendo. Instruction manuals take precedent over player's guides, as manuals are specifically packaged with the game. Nice. We're cruising along without assuming what Nintendo thinks, and presenting "canon" as a way to solve continuity issues.
Any information that is made up by fans (including fan-made stories and video games) are considered non-canonical. Beta Elements are also non-canonical, as they were not released in the final version of the game. Can't argue there.
Comics, cartoons, and movies are difficult to place, so we consider them to be alternate-canon. It is unknown if they should be considered official in the realm of video games, but at the very least each medium has its own canon." That's the end of it... and I'm about to pick that last paragraph to death.
First of all, you see that this is a page created to establish consistency. Yet, the last paragraph works against that. You place video games of equal importance with one another, even when a remake and the original clash. So, why would comics, cartoons, and any other source that does not clash be considered of a lower canon? I know you don't specifically state that, but it's what alternate-canon means in the minds of everyone else.
If the aim of "MarioWiki:Canonicity" is to establish continuity, then it should have continuity itself: not to assume that ALL of the video games follow the same continuity and yet the same assumption cannot be made for anything else. You must pick to assume there are connections to all things that do not downright contradict one another or treat each series in the same manner as other medium: separate. In short, then applied as it is being to the Wiki, the canonicity policy is conjecture, regardless of original intent. Sorry for the huge text, but I thought that if you guys read anything, that should be it. It wasn't to be crabby or anything.
Everyone's calling for me to stop conjecturing a new canon up, but all I'm trying to do is stop the current conjecture. You get me, I hope?
Everyone's been defending our canonicity because it works and, now, because it didn't start out as an attempt to make sense of canon. (why do we call it that, then?) Can you guys pleace read this thing and tell me why it's conjecture is legit? Bolding is my comments.
"As with all fictional universes, the Marioverse has a set of canon, or levels of official material (Here's the beginning: "levels" equals separation in the minds of many, but the big problem is, where is the source for this claim? Like I've mentioned, the Nintendo series F-Zero doesn't separate between it's show and it's games.. The Super Mario Wiki attempts to create the most accurate articles possible, and will turn to different official materials to help understand conflicting issues. (Validity for Blitzwing's statement: here you see the focus... but this sentence says something completely different from the previous one. The first says that Nintendo is separating, this says that the page is just for reference by editors) Video games are of the highest canon, especially video games published by Nintendo (usually with the Official Nintendo Seal, as opposed to Mario's Time Machine and Hotel Mario) (This seal stuff is bogus. Read the stuff I've said about the two offical seals. I've had to repeat it a lot, so you'll find it. :D By the way, why say, "usually", but this has been transfered to all games without the seal.) Both remakes and the original versions have the same level of canon - they are simply alternate versions of the same game. (Your could change this sentence to, "Because Nintendo has not discussed continuity in regards to remakes, both originals and remakes are of equal relivancy to canon." Makes sense, why assume separation when Nintendo hasn't stated it exists?) The events depicted in the games take precedent over other official material. Again, to support Blitz, this refers to the Wiki--if there is a conflict, go with the closest thing to the source. So, why did the Super Show, for example, get shoved to the side when it fits like a glove into the timeline? Please, if you have questions about why this is true, just ask. I don't expect you to have followed the series. This includes instruction manuals, which often have story elements not depicted in the game itself, and official player's guides from Nintendo. Instruction manuals take precedent over player's guides, as manuals are specifically packaged with the game. Nice. We're cruising along without assuming what Nintendo thinks, and presenting "canon" as a way to solve continuity issues.
Any information that is made up by fans (including fan-made stories and video games) are considered non-canonical. Beta Elements are also non-canonical, as they were not released in the final version of the game. Can't argue there.
Comics, cartoons, and movies are difficult to place, so we consider them to be alternate-canon. It is unknown if they should be considered official in the realm of video games, but at the very least each medium has its own canon." That's the end of it... and I'm about to pick that last paragraph to death.
First of all, you see that this is a page created to establish consistency. Yet, the last paragraph works against that. You place video games of equal importance with one another, even when a remake and the original clash. So, why would comics, cartoons, and any other source that does not clash be considered of a lower canon? I know you don't specifically state that, but it's what alternate-canon means in the minds of everyone else.
If the aim of "MarioWiki:Canonicity" is to establish continuity, then it should have continuity itself: not to assume that ALL of the video games follow the same continuity and yet the same assumption cannot be made for anything else. You must pick to assume there are connections to all things that do not downright contradict one another or treat each series in the same manner as other medium: separate. In short, then applied as it is being to the Wiki, the canonicity policy is conjecture, regardless of original intent. Sorry for the huge text, but I thought that if you guys read anything, that should be it. It wasn't to be crabby or anything.
Everyone's calling for me to stop conjecturing a new canon up, but all I'm trying to do is stop the current conjecture. You get me, I hope?
- Thread starter
- #46
Well, two things. First of all, this wasn't meant to be a hostile environment, so... can't say that was a reason I brought it up. Secondly, I feel that we owe it to ourselves to not make assumptions based on Star Wars and Star Trek fanboy theories about those two series, so... I dunno. Whatever. That's really all that our current canon is: other people's ideas for other series coming to bite us in the behind.
Stumpers said:
And like Sublime, it's an evolutionary dead-end. The only thing that will come from it is more strife.
Let me apologize for any hostility I may have been radiating. I wasn't attempting to come off like that, it's just a byproduct of how I was taught to e-argue.
Pushing forward, I still say we are taking this in the wrong direction. The games have presented SOME level of a storyline, but trying to pick it out is much to bothersome, considering that we don't even have all the information. I think it would be best to shelve this canon talk and just document Mario as it comes.
- Thread starter
- #48
That's the thing though. As it stands, by separating the Super Show! and other alternate mediums that are clearly trying to incorporate themselves into the plotline, we are making a judgement as to that storyline. Knife was showing me a Wiki policy on this that states that the reason for separation into "Biography" and "Spin-offs" is because one has a plot and the other doesn't. The same can't be said for the TV shows or the movie even for that matter.
You see what I'm saying? We leave this alone, and we are doing what Ghost Jam does not want us to do (make judgements based on a lack of information) by leaving these judgements in place.
P.S. Ghost Jam: no problem. I've done the same on this thread.
You see what I'm saying? We leave this alone, and we are doing what Ghost Jam does not want us to do (make judgements based on a lack of information) by leaving these judgements in place.
P.S. Ghost Jam: no problem. I've done the same on this thread.
Stumpers said:
It may not be so much that they are trying to say 'we were there too!' as just making a reference to the event or giving the canonist a nod, saying 'it happened here too, but we aren't going to talk about it' or 'we know about it and that's all you need to know'. Think Pokemon. The games, anime and manga follow vastly different canons, but they frequently make open references to each other (Red from Pokemon Special being the final challenge in Pokemon Gold/Silver/Crystal, Ash being an old man in Pokemon Colosseum/XD, etc.).
I'd love to see this policy. It sounds a little bass ackwards to assume that anything that doesn't follow the main concept of a storyline that essentially doesn't exist outside of fandom is a spin-off.
Actually, I think I get what you're getting at now. It's not trying to establish something from nothing, it's that this has already happened and the only real way to fix these assumptions is to make another set of assumptions.
It is true that not all of the Mario games follow the same continuity. And I seen terrible jobs on the wiki tying to tie different things together. when read they sound utterly confusing. If only we had more professional writers that happened to be huge Mario fans. It's a huge wiki I can't fix everything.