Conker (series) and Banjo-Kazooie (series)

Time Turner

You are filled with determination. (R/GD/TT)
Do we really need these articles? For those who don't know, we have two articles on the wiki that encompass everything in the Conker (series) and Banjo-Kazooie (series) into one article. I know why we have them (Banjo and Conker originated in Diddy Kong Racing), but it just seems really weird. I know Wikipedia does it all the time, but we're not Wikipedia. Also, since both Banjo and Conker are sub-series of Mario (well, a sub-series of a sub-series of Mario, but still), shouldn't we give all the characters and stages and items and whatever their own articles? After all, aren't all our articles on the complete Mario series?
 

Seteth

I have something to ask of you...
Chat Administrator
Core 'Shroom Staff
Awards Committee
Retired Wiki Staff
Incoming wall of text.

Oh, I know those articles. I also can't stand those articles. And I know a good deal of people who can't stand them either. They are a giant incoherent mess of many small articles tacked together on one page without any organization. For example, Kazooie and Gruntilda are thrown together with all the minor characters, while both of them should actually be somewhere near the top of the page as main characters. The minor character list is incomplete and several things are just omitted. It's a navigational nightmare.

As far as I know, we have these giant articles because of past conflicts. There is one part of the community who wants to cover both series, while the other wants to get rid of them entirely, and the whole thing is locked in a constant stalemate. This solution is intended to be a compromise, but it doesn't really feel like one. I mean, if you look at it from a guest's POV... If you don't care about the subjects, you will obviously ignore the articles. If you are trying to learn about the games, those articles won't help you much because they are a pain to navigate. And if you are a fan of the subjects, those articles are basically just a giant slap in the face, since we're treating them like some minor garbage that can be piled up. I can't imagine either side to be very happy about this solution.

It also sort of perplexes me that we even consider Banjo-Kazooie a sub-series of the Mario franchise. I mean, the whole argument is built on the fact that Banjo's first appearance was in Diddy Kong Racing. But based on that, we somehow seem to think that DKR was at the beginning, and somehow the Banjo-Kazooie series spun out of it. This is actually nonsense. Now, my knowledge might be faulty, so don't quote me on anything, but as far as I know, Banjo-Kazooie was actually in development since the late SNES era. Back then it was called Project Dream and starred some dude with a sword, but it was nevertheless the game that later evolved into Banjo-Kazooie. I further believe to remember that Banjo-Kazooie was supposed to be released much earlier, but there were some complications and so Diddy Kong Racing was released first instead, with Banjo added as a character to make the players familiar with him before his own game came out. The manual of DKR even makes references to Kazooie, which would confirm that at this point in time, Banjo-Kazooie was already far in development. This would mean that Banjo-Kazooie is an independently developed series with its own origins and history, Banjo's appearance in DKR is basically a cameo, and our treatment of the Banjo-Kazooie series as a spin-off of Diddy Kong Racing is really inappropriate.

I am a huge fan of Rare's work, especially its Nintendo 64 era. As such I would prefer to see these series removed from our coverage, to leave the covering to people who are allowed to tread these franchises with the focus they deserve. If that is not possible, I would alternatively prefer a full coverage of the series, with all characters, places, items, etc. Actually, I would prefer anything over what weird half-coverage we have right now. I was thinking about making a proposal regarding this, but it is somewhat discouraged to bring this subject up and I didn't want to open a can of worms on short notice.

Fanboy rant ends here. I apologize for stealing everyone's time.
 

Fawfulfury65

The Last Story
Retired Wiki Staff
I don't think we need them either. We have them because Banjo/Conker appeared in a Donkey Kong game, making the Banjo/Conker series slightly part of the Mario series. So we're basically covering them because they appeared in one Mario-related game. I find this inconsistent because several Sonic and Final Fantasy characters have appeared in Mario games, but we don't cover those series. Also, the Banjo/Conker games have nothing to do with Mario.

The article is also a huge mess that's hard to navigate and looks unprofessional.
 

Paper Yoshi

Jonny Boy
Although I haven't read those articles, I believe we should cover only the characters who appear in DKR/DKRDS, since we do that with Sonic and FF characters.
 

Ray Trace

You have entered the comedy area.
We should only cover the characters that appeared in DKR and nothing else.

And I agree with all the aforementioned posts
 

Time Turner

You are filled with determination. (R/GD/TT)
I'm thinking about making a proposal to delete those pages and remove them from our coverage, though I'm not sure I'll be able to make a convincing proposal. Anyone else care to try?
 

Ray Trace

You have entered the comedy area.
We're all with you in this topic. Your reasoning in the proposal sounds fine. You can read other people's reasonings (such as Edofenrir's and Fawfulfury's) and I'm pretty sure you will at least convince someone else.
 

SiFi

Benjamin Judd
I'd just like to point these two things out that probably won't change anything:

  • Tiptup makes a reappearance in both N64 Banjo Kazooie games.
  • The Xbox 360 version of Sonic & Sega All Stars Racing acknowledges Diddy Kong Racing as Banjo's first appearance.
 

Ray Trace

You have entered the comedy area.
I still don't understand why we have to mesh everything into one article. Why can't we split it?
 

Fawfulfury65

The Last Story
Retired Wiki Staff
If you plan on doing anything about this, the best thing to do is make a proposal.

And I'm guessing that would end up being about the tenth proposal about removing this from our coverage?
 

Ray Trace

You have entered the comedy area.
I'll support it. This article had bugged me for times
 

Xzelion

Join us in the shadows where we stand vigilant...
Retired Wiki Staff
Why do we even have the Banjo series on here?
 

Ray Trace

You have entered the comedy area.
I hope this proposal passes so we can finally delete that horrible article
 

Brawl Mario

Super Smash Bros.'s most fearsome Mario
The two are related to Diddy Kong who is related to Donkey Kong who is somewhat related to Mario. Doesn't that make them only vaguely related to Mario? When I see the MarioWiki coverage, I wonder, why do Conker and Banjo get their coverage? They never appeared in a Mario game, only in Diddy Kong Racing, which I do not consider to be a Mario game. Even though that was their first appearance, since Rare was bought by Microsoft, they are pretty much their own series.

Compare them to the Donkey Kong, Wario, and Yoshi series. All those series are very related to Mario, and the main characters appear frequently in the Mario games. Mario even makes appearances in Donkey Kong and Wario, while he in Baby form plays a major role in the Yoshi series. The Banjo and Conker series bear little relevance to Mario, and Mario and the two never appeared together. Never. Again, the two are basically their own series, and Rare is not really considered to be part of the Nintendo games anymore.

In short, the two series should be considered independent of the Mario series, and their coverage in MarioWiki should be removed.

P.S. I consider Donkey Kong (the game) to be a Mario game, despite what the Wiki says.
 

Fawfulfury65

The Last Story
Retired Wiki Staff
MarioMaster15 said:
Wait...Isn't there a Donkey Kong Wiki? Why is everything related to DK in a Mario Wiki? ???
Because the DK series is very closely related to the Mario series. Mario and DK also both made their first appearance in the same game. I commonly consider Donkey Kong games to really be part of the Mario series.
 
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