The evolutionary definition of good and bad

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Re: My Super Saiyan Analogy

MattMVS7 said:
Empathy and character strength would be nothing more than brain mechanisms that fool us into believing that our lives can have real good value to us without our good moods/feelings. This fooling mechanism was there since it offered all of the benefits you have mentioned. But, again, no actual awareness of good value can be had for a person without his/her good moods/feelings. Sight and hearing are forms of awareness that allow us to visualize objects and perceive sound. In that same sense, our good moods/feelings are the awareness of good value and worth in our lives. Believing that you can see and hear won't work when you are blind and deaf just as how believing that your life has good value won't work either without your good moods/feelings. You would have to be delusional to think it does work.
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If it still offers the benefits, then can it not be said that human interaction is at worst an indirect path to "true" good value? For instance, I'd wager that a group of humans working together to solve a problem and assist each other in times of need has more good moods/feelings than a group of individuals with no uniting factor. Putting aside the issue of who's being fooled and who isn't, which group ends up with the better results in terms of good moods/feelings?
 
Re: My Super Saiyan Analogy

Earnest question, have any of you studied philosophy?
 
Re: My Super Saiyan Analogy

I had to read (and write about) Plato's Republic as part of a Political Theory class, as well as assorted writings by Locke and Hobbes and other philosophers.

Not exactly the steepest credentials, though.
 
Re: My Super Saiyan Analogy

I am now going to present to you my other packet which is actually a packet that came before my Super Saiyan analogy packet:

http://fav.me/dbeivqu
 
Re: My Super Saiyan Analogy

I have a question for you:

If, as you say, there is no good value to be derived from nourishing your social bonds, and the only true goodness comes from pursuing your own personal pleasure...

...then what exactly drove you to publish your thesis, if not desire for approval? Are you really as above society and its dreaded values as you would have yourself believe?
 
Re: My Super Saiyan Analogy

Mr. Edo said:
I have a question for you:

If, as you say, there is no good value to be derived from nourishing your social bonds, and the only true goodness comes from pursuing your own personal pleasure...

...then what exactly drove you to publish your thesis, if not desire for approval? Are you really as above society and its dreaded values as you would have yourself believe?
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I have my good moods/feelings now. But when I was writing these packets in the past, I didn't have these feelings. Writing these packets still had no good value or worth to me at all. There was still no actual awareness of any good value in my life at all. But even though our lives can have no value and worth, we can still do things anyway since they are wise choices to us.
 
Re: My Super Saiyan Analogy

So you're writing and publishing these theses, an activity which supposedly has no joy or value to you, because it seems like a wise choice to you? I don't entirely buy that.

First of all, you're publishing your society-challenging essay on a forum about Super Mario. There's not really any wisdom in that decision, no matter which way you turn it.

And second of all, and this is the main point: Are you sure you're actually not just deluding yourself? You are projecting the image of a philosophical guru who has severed ties with their humanity in order to pursue what they believe to be their path to enlightenment, in your case a hedonistic definition of pure personal bliss. But I do not believe this pursuit to be a happy one. You push away the notion of friendship and family by objectifying your fellow humans as sources of false joy. Your words say you do not need them, but your actions speak a different truth.

By denouncing the social aspect of your humanity as fake, I believe you have created a rift. Witing and publishing these essays is your way to cope and fill in that rift. It is not about any profoundness or wisdom, it is just about attention and approval. You are not detached, you relish the debate, conversation, and amusing commentary that follows these posts, otherwise you would not bother.

This is your way of socializing. You are still human, and thus you cannot escape your basic human need for socialization, no matter how much or for how long you chase after the hedonistic ideal that's supposed to save you from it.

To bring this back to the Dragonball analogy: I do not believe the destination of your spiritual pursuit is equatable with the highest grade of Super Saiyan. I think the ideal you're chasing is actually Beerus the Destroyer. Beerus is one of the most powerful entities in existence. While people struggle in vain to match him, he sits at the top of his respective universe. And time and time again, it is shown how lonely and unfulfilling his existence actually is. Beerus covets an equal that he can test his mettle against, yet that is impossible. Even though people of equal strength to him exist, like his brother Champa, this brings him no satisfaction because they cannot fight at full strength without destroying the universe. The truth is that Beerus has gone too far in pursuit of strength, and in doing so ended up in a position that rendered said strength purposeless and meaningless.

In the end, I think I'd rather be a Krillin.

tl;dr version: Being human can be scary, but trying to turn into a moody purple cat might make for a poor alternative.
 
Re: My Super Saiyan Analogy

Mr. Edo said:
So you're writing and publishing these theses, an activity which supposedly has no joy or value to you, because it seems like a wise choice to you? I don't entirely buy that.

First of all, you're publishing your society-challenging essay on a forum about Super Mario. There's not really any wisdom in that decision, no matter which way you turn it.

And second of all, and this is the main point: Are you sure you're actually not just deluding yourself? You are projecting the image of a philosophical guru who has severed ties with their humanity in order to pursue what they believe to be their path to enlightenment, in your case a hedonistic definition of pure personal bliss. But I do not believe this pursuit to be a happy one. You push away the notion of friendship and family by objectifying your fellow humans as sources of false joy. Your words say you do not need them, but your actions speak a different truth.

By denouncing the social aspect of your humanity as fake, I believe you have created a rift. Witing and publishing these essays is your way to cope and fill in that rift. It is not about any profoundness or wisdom, it is just about attention and approval. You are not detached, you relish the debate, conversation, and amusing commentary that follows these posts, otherwise you would not bother.

This is your way of socializing. You are still human, and thus you cannot escape your basic human need for socialization, no matter how much or for how long you chase after the hedonistic ideal that's supposed to save you from it.

To bring this back to the Dragonball analogy: I do not believe the destination of your spiritual pursuit is equatable with the highest grade of Super Saiyan. I think the ideal you're chasing is actually Beerus the Destroyer. Beerus is one of the most powerful entities in existence. While people struggle in vain to match him, he sits at the top of his respective universe. And time and time again, it is shown how lonely and unfulfilling his existence actually is. Beerus covets an equal that he can test his mettle against, yet that is impossible. Even though people of equal strength to him exist, like his brother Champa, this brings him no satisfaction because they cannot fight at full strength without destroying the universe. The truth is that Beerus has gone too far in pursuit of strength, and in doing so ended up in a position that rendered said strength purposeless and meaningless.

In the end, I think I'd rather be a Krillin.

tl;dr version: Being human can be scary, but trying to turn into a moody purple cat might make for a poor alternative.
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The experience of having written these packets during my moment of misery was, in fact, completely dead and empty to me no different than how the rest of my life's experience was also completely dead and empty to me. But now that I have my good moods/feelings back to me, sharing these packets and responding to others here is now able to bring my life good value and joy.
 
Re: My Super Saiyan Analogy

Mr. Edo said:
So you're writing and publishing these theses, an activity which supposedly has no joy or value to you, because it seems like a wise choice to you? I don't entirely buy that.

First of all, you're publishing your society-challenging essay on a forum about Super Mario. There's not really any wisdom in that decision, no matter which way you turn it.

And second of all, and this is the main point: Are you sure you're actually not just deluding yourself? You are projecting the image of a philosophical guru who has severed ties with their humanity in order to pursue what they believe to be their path to enlightenment, in your case a hedonistic definition of pure personal bliss. But I do not believe this pursuit to be a happy one. You push away the notion of friendship and family by objectifying your fellow humans as sources of false joy. Your words say you do not need them, but your actions speak a different truth.

By denouncing the social aspect of your humanity as fake, I believe you have created a rift. Witing and publishing these essays is your way to cope and fill in that rift. It is not about any profoundness or wisdom, it is just about attention and approval. You are not detached, you relish the debate, conversation, and amusing commentary that follows these posts, otherwise you would not bother.

This is your way of socializing. You are still human, and thus you cannot escape your basic human need for socialization, no matter how much or for how long you chase after the hedonistic ideal that's supposed to save you from it.

To bring this back to the Dragonball analogy: I do not believe the destination of your spiritual pursuit is equatable with the highest grade of Super Saiyan. I think the ideal you're chasing is actually Beerus the Destroyer. Beerus is one of the most powerful entities in existence. While people struggle in vain to match him, he sits at the top of his respective universe. And time and time again, it is shown how lonely and unfulfilling his existence actually is. Beerus covets an equal that he can test his mettle against, yet that is impossible. Even though people of equal strength to him exist, like his brother Champa, this brings him no satisfaction because they cannot fight at full strength without destroying the universe. The truth is that Beerus has gone too far in pursuit of strength, and in doing so ended up in a position that rendered said strength purposeless and meaningless.

In the end, I think I'd rather be a Krillin.

tl;dr version: Being human can be scary, but trying to turn into a moody purple cat might make for a poor alternative.
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I will actually say one last thing in regards to everything you have said to me. That is, you are right. I do need other human beings in my life. But not in an altruistic sense. It is instead in a hedonistic sense. In other words, as long as I am feeling happiness and enjoyment in playing sports, doing hobbies, bonding, etc. with my friends/family, then that is what I need. If I didn't have my good moods/feelings, then nothing else could give my life any real good value. This means that it is not being there for my family and other human beings in my life during my states of anhedonia and misery that gives my life value and worth. Rather, it is me having fun and enjoying my life with my family and other human beings that gives my life good value.
 
Re: My Super Saiyan Analogy

Note to Reader: Since there are a lot of packets, then I will narrow it down to the ones you need to read. If you don't wish to read all of these packets which explain how I define my own values and morality (as well as other concepts pertaining to my personal life), then just read the summary packet which sums up very briefly my whole philosophy.

But if you have the time to read at least 2, 3, or 4 packets, then I would also highly recommend reading packet #4, #5, and #6 since they are the 2nd post important packets you need to read. Also, just to let you know, the final packet (#14) has an actual conversation between me and someone else.

I will now proceed to present the Deviant Art links to all my packets.

Here are the Deviant Art links:

Summary Packet: http://fav.me/dbgkmdl

#1: http://fav.me/dbgif18

#2: http://fav.me/dbdjr9g

#3: http://fav.me/dbda76j

#4: http://fav.me/dbeivqu

#5: http://fav.me/dbc55yl

#6: http://fav.me/dbg3ikh

#7: http://fav.me/dbflptn

#8: http://fav.me/dbda7dz

#9: http://fav.me/dbftmc1

#10: http://fav.me/dbc4hm4

#11: http://fav.me/dbe6jcj

#12: http://fav.me/dbc4h3l

#13: http://fav.me/dbc4hqf

#14: http://fav.me/dbc4w49
 
Re: My Super Saiyan Analogy

MattMVS7 said:
Note to Reader: Since there are a lot of packets, then I will narrow it down to the ones you need to read. If you don't wish to read all of these packets which explain how I define my own values and morality (as well as other concepts pertaining to my personal life), then just read the summary packet which sums up very briefly my whole philosophy.
Click to expand...
This is more morbidly funny than it has any reason to be.
 
Re: My Super Saiyan Analogy

PangolinFreak said:
MattMVS7 said:
Note to Reader: Since there are a lot of packets, then I will narrow it down to the ones you need to read. If you don't wish to read all of these packets which explain how I define my own values and morality (as well as other concepts pertaining to my personal life), then just read the summary packet which sums up very briefly my whole philosophy.
Click to expand...
This is more morbidly funny than it has any reason to be.
Click to expand...

What did you find funny about it?
 
Re: My Super Saiyan Analogy

matt I'd just like to say that your words are some of the most inspiring things I've heard in my life, and I follow jaden smith's twitter

my advice is to take your gospel to this site right here, I'm sure everyone there will appreciate it
 
Re: My Super Saiyan Analogy

Summary packet said:
Sight and hearing are forms of awareness that allow us to visualize objects and perceive sound.
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my Scott Pilgrim manifesto said:
One only perceives the world through the five senses – sight, touch, taste, hearing, smell – to produce a mental image or the environment they live in.
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:thinking:
 
Lastly, I will now present to you another person's response to my summary and my reply to it. This is to clear some things up and address some issues others might have with my whole philosophy:

Other Person's Response: Let me emphasize the importance of the non feeling values. Where would we be without them? If your life was in danger and you couldn't feel anything, then you would get yourself killed because escaping from said danger would be of no value to you. This is the type of world we would all be living in. Life would simply be a disaster without these values.

My Reply: I would still choose to escape from danger anyway knowing that it is a wise decision. But said decision would be of no value to me. Therefore, the type of world we would be living in would be a world where we would still make decisions anyway knowing that they are wise. Like I said, we are wired for survival and it is this wiring that compels us to make choices anyway even though they would bring our lives no value or happiness.

For example, during my worst miserable times, my life was completely dead and empty. It was absolute hell for me and there was no good value, worth, or happiness in my life whatsoever. My life had the worst possible value. However, I have chosen to get psychiatric help anyway knowing that my life would eventually change for the better.

Again, even knowing that my life would change for the better did not give my life any value. But let's pretend that I had to live the entirety of my life in this miserable state and could never recover from it, then that is when I would end my life. There is absolutely no way I would choose to live on and on in a life that is the worst hell filled with the worst possible value. So, as you can see here, even though I would still make wise choices in my life even without having any good value and worth in my life, I need the good value, worth, joy, beauty, and happiness in my life.

Otherwise, I would give up on life and end my life since nothing would matter to me. I would be in a completely dead and empty state of being and living. Even if the type of world we would all be living in would be chaos without these non feeling values, that still doesn't change my views here. If we were to somehow realize that these non feeling values weren't real and the world were to become chaos, then that is just the way it is. That is just what we are as human beings then.

During my miserable times, I am in a state of complete darkness. I cannot see the light. This means that I cannot see the good value or joy in anything in my life. But once I fully recover and have my good moods/feelings, then they are the light to my life. They allow me to see the good value and joy in my life.

If I were in a state of complete anhedonia, then that would not be a state of complete darkness. Rather, it would be a completely blank state. All light would be shunned out. The same concept still applies here. I would still not be able to see the good value in my life. But a state of hopelessness and misery is a far worse state to be in than anhedonia because states of misery and hopelessness are hell that bring my life the experience of the absolute worst value and suffering in my life.

In other words, thoughts and outlooks alone are not the light or darkness to my life. If I thought to myself that certain choices and decisions brought my life good value, worth, and joy during those horrible times, then it wouldn't work to any degree for me whatsoever. I would still be in a hellish and blank state where my life has no good value or joy. The tone of our moods/feelings dictates the tone of our outlooks. In other words, if you felt angry, then you will be angry. You will have an angry outlook.

Since the tone of an angry feeling has a pessimistic tone, then your whole outlook can only have a pessimistic tone as well. You cannot have an optimistic outlook while experiencing feelings/moods that have a pessimistic tone. The experience of an optimistic and pessimistic tone does not come about through our thoughts and outlooks alone. They can only come about through our moods/feelings. When I thought to myself that my life still had good value during my miserable times, then that thought had nothing but a hopeless and dead tone. In other words, it really wasn't an outlook of anything having any real good value to me.

People who claim to have an optimistic tone of experience (outlook) during their depression or worst miserable times would only be fooling and deluding themselves. As I said before, it is only our moods/feelings that possess the optimistic and pessimistic tones to give our lives good or bad value. Thoughts and outlooks alone without our moods/feelings can only possess a mechanistic tone. This means that they do not give our lives any real good or bad value.

This would have to mean that depressed/anhedonic people who think their lives have good value are thinking optimistic words and phrases in their mind of their lives having real good value, but their thoughts and outlooks only possess a dead and lifeless mechanistic tone and, therefore, these depressed/anhedonic people would actually not be having any real good value in their lives. These words and phrases alone have these depressed/anhedonic people fooled into believing their lives have real good value when they don't.

Once again, that all goes back to my personal example. During my worst miserable moments, I have thought optimistic words and phrases of my life having real good value. However, this tone of experience was completely dead and lifeless. Therefore, my life really had no good value or worth to me at all. Having good value and worth in your life can only be an optimistic tone of experience for you.

It would make no sense to say that having good value and worth in your life is either a pessimistic tone of experience or neither optimistic nor pessimistic (i.e. mechanistic). Since our good moods/feelings are the only experiences that possess the optimistic tone as I've just explained earlier, then it would obviously follow that it can only be our good moods/feelings that give our lives real good value and worth.

For example, if someone said:

"My life is worth living," "These things and situations have worth to me," or "Good, I get to get what I want now. This situation has a lot of worth to me."

Then that is optimism. Even if you screamed and said:

"GOOD, HE/SHE DESERVES TO DIE!!! THAT IS WORTH SOMETHING TO ME!!!"

Then that is also optimism. It is an optimistic outlook (experience) for you. But, like I said, it is only the good moods/feelings we get which can give our lives optimistic tones of experience.

Other Person's Response: Theres so much mest up ways of thinking here. You can claim that you're trying to not offend anyone and say you're just expressing your view which is fine but nonetheless youre still putting depressed people into one category. You just wrote "depressed people have no good value and worth in their lives" "depressed people are living lives that have no good value and worth and dont even realize it " are you kidding how can you glump people together like that and think that a persons feelings and mental ilness automatically equates to having no worth.

So many people that brought us great things have all been so deeply depressed. Singers, scientists, philosophers have all been people that have brought great value to our lives even with their state of depression. They enriched us with their intelligence and creative minds. There are parents who are raising children that have severe depression and manage to get up every morning and give their child a good life does that sound like someone who has no purpose and value?

"Depressed and anhedonic people are living lives that have no good value , no worth and they dont evem realize it" thats is such an ignorant stement to make and bring no one any value or use. And I can tell someone their fat and ugky and then say "hey thats just my view not trying to offend anyone " but it doesnt make it any less offesnsive and it wont make them any less ugly or fat. Also the fact that you equate happiness and feel good feelings as people being with value is so strange to me when again so many happy people do nothing withe their lives or contribute anything to society. Depression does not determine your value as a human being and if thats how you feel about yourself than im sorry but its not good to project such harmful negativity to people that are trying to find light in their current dimmed world.

My Reply: I said that it is only our good moods/feelings that allow us to perceive good value and worth in our lives. I am not saying that depressed people cannot have any good value and worth to us. I am saying that they cannot actually perceive any good value and worth in themselves and in their own lives. If we felt good from a depressed person who has contributed to our lives, then we would be able to see that depressed person as being a wonderful person to us. But the depressed person who helped us would not be able to perceive his/her altruistic actions as being anything good or worthwhile.

He/she might think otherwise, but, in reality, he/she is having nothing but an experience that is completely dead inside. There literally is no good value being perceived in this person's life at all and he/she is falsely lead into the notion that the right mindset alone creates the perception of good value in our lives when it is really our good moods/feelings that give us this perception. I think that I have every right to express myself and my views like anyone else. I will not be alone with them. I do not care if people become offended by them when my intention was not to offend in the first place, but only to vent and express my views.
 
MattMVS7 said:
PangolinFreak said:
MattMVS7 said:
Note to Reader: Since there are a lot of packets, then I will narrow it down to the ones you need to read. If you don't wish to read all of these packets which explain how I define my own values and morality (as well as other concepts pertaining to my personal life), then just read the summary packet which sums up very briefly my whole philosophy.
Click to expand...
This is more morbidly funny than it has any reason to be.
Click to expand...

What did you find funny about it?
Click to expand...
I can't say otherwise it'll become unfunny.
 
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