How to regard second rep for 3rd party series idea?

Dorayaki

King Bowser
When people think Smash bros should provide chances to popular 3rd party characters whose franchises already nominate Smash bros, this always make me wonder how do the failed NIntendo allstars make the way out.



To clarify, this example doesn't indicate specific comparison between certain characters, franchises or companies, you can swap with any other case, such as:



In either Situation 1 or 2, there is no persuasive reason for 3rd party companies to insert failed Nintendo allstars at this point.

And also, if we use opportunity cost to measure things, the 3rd party seconary characters definitely have appearances in any crossover game (some of them already did), while all the failed Nintendo allstars haven't been playable in any crossover game.

However, it shows that Situation 1 has been supported by a visible amount of fans over Situation 2. So how to explain such thing? Here are the possible reasons I can think of:
1) The crossovers from other companies are seldom taken into consideration, since most NIntendo fans strictly focus on Smash bros only.
2) Requests for 3rd party new entries seldom care about the failed NIntendo allstars, it kinda makes sense that Tails supportors would not claim they like Riki or Spring Man more.

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Are characters like Tails, Chunli, Pinky and Alucard impossible for fighters in the future? Well, I don't have a clear answer. But in a comparative view, I think the following criteria has to be fulfilled:

1) All current 3rd party reps should get an echo fighter first as long as they have proper candidates: if no Shadow or Silver for Sonic echo, I'd doubt Nintendo would even want to do a second Sonic regular.

2) All current NIntendo franchises should get at least two fighters, excluding those that lack proper candidates, like Duck Hunt and ROB. Rest like Xenoblade, Pikimin and ARMS probably should fill out a second fighter before any outsider get further treat.

3) A new crossover title with different format of roster, like Project X Zone and Mario&Sonic in Olympics takes place, where it's allowed to have multiple fighters from different companies (however, based on the point that people mainly care about Smash bros, this might not be what they need.
 

SonicMario

Star Spirit
As someone who's most wanted is Tails I suppose I'm one of those who could give an answer. However, I am very aware the reality of the situation that Tails isn't going to be made playable in Ultimate. If it ever happens it will be the next game where the roster is probably shrunken compared to Ultimate as there's only 5 spots left in Ultimate and I don't think a character who got Mii costume'd again is going to get that promotion.

Regarding your two situations, I don't see why Nintendo would be put in a situation where they have to pick between Tails or Krystal? (Or any Nintendo character at all). If they add Tails and not Krystal, it's more likely that Tails is a well-established video game character that bolsters the Sonic representation and they also had that planned out with Sega in advance while Krystal has not made a major appearance outside of Smash since the DS era. The inclusion of a 3rd party character doesn't exclude Krystal, her time in the sun fading more likely did. And on the other situation where Krystal is added but Tails is not, other crossover games including other fighting games aren't reasons why someone would be excluded in Smash. Ryu and Terry are both characters that have been in many crossover titles. Terry even having a decently recent one before his appearance in Smash. If Krystal was ever added and Tails not, it'd be because Nintendo and/or Sakurai has seen enough support for her inclusion as playable not too far off from how K. Rool got in despite being rather dormant (Though Krystal was never as highly requested as K. Rool had been) and they went for other choices rather then letting a non-nintendo franchise having a non-echo 2nd character.

Also regarding two of your three points at the end, the 2nd character doesn't necessarily HAVE to be an echo if we presume that if the time comes for a non-echo same series 3rd party character is possible for the next game. Assuming echoes even return for the next game, it's also possible to do a sort of package deal of an additional 2nd character for a 3rd party series that's been in Smash for a while plus an echo. I'm saying perhaps you could have both Tails as a non-echo and Shadow as an echo in the next Smash. Heck, before we knew the format of DLC and Shadow returning as an assist I was thinking that there was a chance there was going to be like DLC packs that contain one character and one echo fighter that could of made this probable for Ultimate DLC. Of course many things of that November 1st direct + Joker getting in Smash with the Sonic mii costumes shot all possibilities of that down but at the time of speculation it was an idea that was possible. We should also kind of acknowledge that there may have been a bit of a favoritisim regarding the echoes to 3rd party franchises since both Castlevania and Street Fighter are some of Sakurai's favorite franchises. I think it's true that while I'm sure he still respects the Sonic franchise and all of the other 3rd party franchises currently in Smash, just when he got the opportunity he might of jumped higher at the chance to add another Belmont and Ken compared to say adding Shadow or Proto Man. And it also turned out the space for echoes was much shorter then we though and not even DLC seems to be bolstering the Echoes despite expectations for it.

And as for more 1st parties with only one character. Let's be a little honest here in saying that's it's very possible for some to remain alone. I don't think we're ever getting another F-Zero character other then Captain Falcon. Pikmin technically has a 2nd rep with Alph as an alt but certainly not the same respect of an echo or what not. If Min Min returns in the next game it's probably very possible Spring Man will join too. I do think Xenoblade's one of the possibilities to get another character in Fighter's Pass 2 though of course that remains to be seen. I do at least think Rex is the Waluigi of the mii fighter costumes in he's the only one who can break the train of thought and even then it's likely because Sakurai really wanted to include Rex at one point but now Fighter's Pass 2 makes that finally available to him. I don't think there should be an issue of a 3rd party character getting a 2nd character then more minor Nintendo franchise in Smash still only have one at this point, because it technically already happened with the echoes plus additional 3rd party characters just gather more buzz and cheers even if they're characters from a franchise already in the game.
 

Dorayaki

King Bowser
I don't see why Nintendo would be put in a situation where they have to pick between Tails or Krystal?

the 2nd character doesn't necessarily HAVE to be an echo

Let's be a little honest here in saying that's it's very possible for some to remain alone
I personally believe it's a matter of decision making. When making the decision you'd have to have a very clear vision about whether the next character is from 1st or 3rd party, a new or old series, what is the priorty. You'd definitely eliminate the other side of options when you already enter a specific zone.

Still I agree with your reasoning. Most of the commonly requested 2nd rep for 3rd party series are more like equivalent to Luigi or Peach to Mario series. While some of the candidates from already represented 1st party series do not have the same public reputation. However, since some of the ongoing franchises still have only one rep in Smash at this point, cannot say that they deserve less. In the case of Star Fox, I agree it's lack of new game would cause a trouble for adding contents to Smash bros.

Yes, Punch Out can nominate Glass Joe as second rep, but definitely many people are gonna feel bothered by his inclusion, since such kind of second rep doesn't have the same reputation that Luigi and Diddy could give.

I don't think Smash is obliged to do echoes for all first reps as well (since Daisy came after Rosalina), it'd just that echo would be a very efficient way to satisfy the needs when the budget doesn't allow them to do more.
 
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