Things in the Mario series that made you upset/disappointed

[Lin Beifong]

Going further into the whole plot vs. pacing thing:

To some this might come as a surprise, but you can actually tell a story without bringing the gameplay to a screeching halt. There are other ways to convey a plot than through walls of text and cutscenes.

A skilled story-writer would be able to build a coherent narrative through the way the game environments are designed alone.

Subtlety is the key.

 

[Mcmadness]

I'm not actually in favor of adding a plot to the Mario platformers. I'm just saying that Zelda is a series with very stern game mechanics that have been firmly set in stone (collect McGuffins to get the better sword to kill the bad guy), while Mario is a series with very stern principles that have been firmly set in stone (go through levels and jump on things until you reach the bad guy). They're not THAT different. So saying doing something for one of them is fine, but for the other it will never ever work is kind of silly.

Actually, King Antasma is mentioning a pretty fine example up there: Super Mario Galaxy. Not only does that game have probably the most well-defined Mario character ever, it also has the Toad Brigade, which are actually surprisingly coherent characters for Mario standards. Nowhere in that game do these story elements (yes, developed characters are story elements) bog down the game experience. And it just so happens that Super Mario Galaxy is one of the most critically acclaimed Mario titles of all time.

So your notion that all story elements, no matter how skillfully and with how much care to preserve the game's pacing they are implemented, will inherently "*bleep* with the game"... I call bull*bleep* on it.

That said, I've accepted the Mario Platformers' refusal to do anything new anymore. I don't care if they add whatever to the games. This point I raise just for the principle of the matter.



But to get into something I wanted to mention before all of this popped up: I just thought maybe having a different villain for a platformer might not actually be such a bad idea after all.

...but only under the condition that Bowser is playable (Mario is still the default character though, so the players don't get scared by too much new content). Imagine the novelty of being able to play as Bowser in a main series platformer. If advertised decently, it might evoke enough of a WTF factor that it would probably sell really well.

No, its not even remotely silly to say that, Zelda is an entirely different genre with entirely different set ups not to mention being a naturally slower and methodical type of game, thus story elements being more appropriate.


Super Mario Galaxy barely has any plot in it. Its Bowser steals peach and grand stars to build his own galaxy to conquer the universe, everything else was largely superfluous, even the toad brigade mainly just existed to provide assistance in the levels themselves.

Other than Rosalina's backstory, an element that again was largely irrelevant, it really had nothing more than any other Mario excuse plot.

 

[Lin Beifong]

Other than Rosalina's backstory, an element that again was largely irrelevant, it really had nothing more than any other Mario excuse plot.

"Other than the things it had more than any other Mario excuse plot, it really had nothing more than any other Mario excuse plot"

You have thoroughly bested me. Congratulations.

I have provided you with ample means of how decent storytelling COULD be applied to a game with Mario's type of pacing. Your refusal to acknowledge any of them I am going to interpret as you not having anything to counter them.

If you do have appropriate counter material for them, then please tell me how storytelling mechanisms that do not impact pacing at all would "fuck with the game".

 

[Mcmadness]

You mean the non obligatory side story that has absolutely zero to do with the actual main events of the game and that most people hated because it was utterly dull?

Oh yeah, that was real great.

 

[Lin Beifong]

Going further into the whole plot vs. pacing thing:

To some this might come as a surprise, but you can actually tell a story without bringing the gameplay to a screeching halt. There are other ways to convey a plot than through walls of text and cutscenes.

A skilled story-writer would be able to build a coherent narrative through the way the game environments are designed alone.

Subtlety is the key.

I have no interest in debating with an opponent who does not bother to read what I write.

 

[Stargazing]

Super Mario Galaxy barely has any plot in it. Its Bowser steals peach and grand stars to build his own galaxy to conquer the universe, everything else was largely superfluous, even the toad brigade mainly just existed to provide assistance in the levels themselves.

Other than Rosalina's backstory, an element that again was largely irrelevant, it really had nothing more than any other Mario excuse plot.

They could build on to that.

I know for a fact that Nintendo can create a good story. Simple as that. Using this knowledge, I also know that the company has enough experience to subtly hide the well-done story in the fast paced matter of the platformers.

Edo has given enough proof, and I'm planning on doing so when I'm not tired, but if you're just going to shoot it down and not give enough valid reasons, I'm just going to quit trying.

 

[Mcmadness]

Yeah, I don't even need to counter that because it forgets one of the well known facts about this franchise.

Spoiler

MARIO IS NOT SUBTLE

It deals with extremely obvious plot points and in your face cartoonish characters.

Hell even fucking Rosalina's goddamn back story is presented as a literal story that she bloody reads to you.

Fuck, in the beginning of 3D World Bowser literally holds the captured sprixie to the viewers to emphasise the fact that he just captured her.

I get what your saying, and with other series that line of thinking would most definitely work but in Mario's case pretty much everything it does is inservice of the gameplay, the random npcs, locations, level designs, all of it.

 

[Lin Beifong]

I know Mario is not subtle.

But the presence of in-your-face type of elements and subtleness are not mutually exclusive. Mario can be pretty subtle when it wants to be. There are things like ghosts that only appear if you stand around in a certain spot for an unintuitive amount of time. There are strange shadowy figures hidden in sky textures. There are objects like books hidden inside walls where you need to manipulate the camera in order to see them.

Mario is direct and cartoony, yes, but it does have its nuances too. Little secrets that are irrelevant for the main plot, but still exist. And people absolutely love it. They are all over that shit. Why are these figures up there in the sky? Why are they called Hell Valley Sky Trees? What does it mean? People are wrapping their heads around these things, trying to figure out what they're about.

It adds a layer of mystery and wonder to the games. And for players who enjoy such things, these little nuances hidden behind the facade of hamfisted cartooniness will stick with them far, FAR beyond the end credits. Fuck, it's been about 15 years since I played Banjo Kazooie for the first time and even though I know now I STILL remember how much that damn ice key puzzled me.

And this is the true beauty of subtle story elements. They give your game, Mario or not, something beyond its mechanics and provide your audience with something they can remember it by fondly.

To claim these things have no place in Mario games is ignorant, because they already exist within them.

To claim these things do not add anything to the experience is absurd, because proof to the contrary is all around you, provided by passionate and occasionally crazy game theorists.

And to claim that these things are actively detrimental to the Mario series... is madness.

 

[Mcmadness]

....I was never talking about any of that.

I mean actual main plot points, just side fluff that gives things extra fluff. I mean an actual main over arching plotline that goes beyond just the usual excuse plot shit the series normally has.

That is what I feel is detrimental, irrelevant side shit is fine, but the main plot has to remain basic or the flow would be destroyed. Subtle elements can only go so far in telling a story, it needs more up front and in your face methods as well like cutscenes dialogue, character interaction, etc etc. and its those in your face story methods that would cause a negative impact on the gameplay.

 

[Lin Beifong]

it needs more up front and in your face methods as well like cutscenes dialogue, character interaction, etc etc.

I think we have found the quintessential point where our opinions differ.

Again, a skilled writer can convey narrative through media other than cutscienes or mandatory dialogue.

I believe to truly understand the full potential of storytelling, you must stop thinking of story as a segmented complex of "main plot and useless side shit" and view it as an actual, organic whole. A game's story is the combination of all it's story elements, including the main plot AND the "little side fluff". A well-crafted story is one experience. One experience that transcends the sum of its individual parts.

Mario's basic hamfist plot and subtle story elements forming a coherent narrative on the side CAN come together and form a well-rounded story experience that complements the game WITHOUT slowing it down even a bit. It is not impossible, I am absolutely sure of it.

They just have to be willing to try. Which they don't need to because Mario sells like crazy regardless of what they do. So nothing will ever happen.