Would you have a problem if I...

Stumpers

Hammer Bro.
Retired Wiki Staff
That was a dumb subject. Whatever. :P The thing is this:

I recently found out that the DiC cartoons try to fit themselves in the timeline somewhere around SMB1, 3, and SMW. So, the question is, would it be okay if I popped information about the occurances in those shows in their appropriate place in the Mario and others' biography section?

I know there are some people who don't think the shows are canon, and I would gladly retract this question if someone can prove to me that this view is absolutely true. As it stands, I don't know for sure, but I don't see why we couldn't pop them in and let people decide for themselves whether or not they include the TV shows in their own personal canon. Let me know what you think.
 

MegaMario9910

I am... The Black Knight
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Stumpers said:
That was a dumb subject. Whatever. :P The thing is this:

I recently found out that the DiC cartoons try to fit themselves in the timeline somewhere around SMB1, 3, and SMW. So, the question is, would it be okay if I popped information about the occurances in those shows in their appropriate place in the Mario and others' biography section?

I know there are some people who don't think the shows are canon, and I would gladly retract this question if someone can prove to me that this view is absolutely true. As it stands, I don't know for sure, but I don't see why we couldn't pop them in and let people decide for themselves whether or not they include the TV shows in their own personal canon. Let me know what you think.
It's cool. Even tough I didn't understand a word you just said.
 

Stumpers

Hammer Bro.
Retired Wiki Staff
Uniju: it's really not for us to decide, so I was thinking, why not put the information where it belongs in the timeline... and people like you can read over it, while people who see it as part of the continuity can read it.
 

MegaMario9910

I am... The Black Knight
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Stumpers said:
Uniju: it's really not for us to decide, so I was thinking, why not put the information where it belongs in the timeline... and people like you can read over it, while people who see it as part of the continuity can read it.
It works. I'd like to read it, and finally beat Sifi in a topic...
 

Stumpers

Hammer Bro.
Retired Wiki Staff
MegaMario: there's a rough version of a rewrite I was doing to Mario's article. I added the TV and comics in to see how it would look... so you can actually see it. It's at User:Stumpers/Archive_1
 

Ghost Jam

A call to action? A call to arms!
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Stumpers said:
I recently found out that
Stop right there.

I'd like to know how you 'found out' and where this discovery was made.
 

MegaMario9910

I am... The Black Knight
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Stumpers said:
MegaMario: there's a rough version of a rewrite I was doing to Mario's article. I added the TV and comics in to see how it would look... so you can actually see it. It's at User:Stumpers/Archive_1
Cool. I'll check it out.
 
B

Blitzwing

Guest
Ghost Jam said:
Stumpers said:
I recently found out that
Stop right there.

I'd like to know how you 'found out' and where this discovery was made.
The Super Show position itself after "Bowser First Defeat", not really a big proof of it being part of the game continuity, if you ask me.
 

MegaMario9910

I am... The Black Knight
Pronouns
He/him
Blitzwing said:
Ghost Jam said:
Stumpers said:
I recently found out that
Stop right there.

I'd like to know how you 'found out' and where this discovery was made.
The Super Show position itself after "Bowser First Defeat", not really a big proof of it being part of the game continuity, if you ask me.
Well, we'll have to wait for the story.
 
B

Blitzwing

Guest
MegaMario9910 said:
Blitzwing said:
Ghost Jam said:
Stumpers said:
I recently found out that
Stop right there.

I'd like to know how you 'found out' and where this discovery was made.
The Super Show position itself after "Bowser First Defeat", not really a big proof of it being part of the game continuity, if you ask me.
Well, we'll have to wait for the story.
... You know that what you said doesn't makes any sense, right?
 

MegaMario9910

I am... The Black Knight
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Blitzwing said:
MegaMario9910 said:
Blitzwing said:
Ghost Jam said:
Stumpers said:
I recently found out that
Stop right there.

I'd like to know how you 'found out' and where this discovery was made.
The Super Show position itself after "Bowser First Defeat", not really a big proof of it being part of the game continuity, if you ask me.
Well, we'll have to wait for the story.
... You know that what you said doesn't makes any sense, right?
Yeah. I always say things that don't make sense, but I say, scratch it. But didn't Stumpers say that he was going to tell like a story with the TV Series? Yeah, that made no sense at all, but answer for the heck of it.
 

Stumpers

Hammer Bro.
Retired Wiki Staff
Ghost Jam said:
Stumpers said:
I recently found out that
Stop right there.

I'd like to know how you 'found out' and where this discovery was made.
I still have no idea why this gets people angry. How much do you know about the TV series. After you tell me that, I'll know how much explaining I need to do.
 

Ghost Jam

A call to action? A call to arms!
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I'm angry? No, just skeptical. Suddenly you have information, I'd like to know where it cam from.

For the purposes of this conversation, let's assume that I know jack about the TV series.
 

Stumpers

Hammer Bro.
Retired Wiki Staff
Well, if you know nothing, you really shouldn't be in on this conversation, but I think you do know some stuff. But... if you want to make me make this discussion open to everyone, all I can do is direct you guys to YouTube videos of the show. The only way you can really know about the show and form your own opinions is to actually watch it. So, please hit up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEAbmaKWUDo&feature=PlayList&p=5E8559ECC6107447&index=0

This is the first video of three. Watch 'em all. Or... if you have seen this episode, check out below... although I'm sure anyone who has put thought into the show's universe knows this...

Anyway, so after the introduction (see the words at the bottom), Mario says that he and Luigi, "had just rescued Princess Toadstool from King Koopa" and goes on to say what their quest is (to find a way to restore the Mushroom Kingdom, yada yada yada). This show and AoSMB3 make the claim that the bros. grew up in Brooklyn (see "Plumbers Academy" for more on this period of their life), and were transported to the Mushroom World via a Warp Pipe in a bathtub (see the intro to the Super Show and "Toddler Terrors in Time Travel" in AoSMB3, which has the brothers relive part of their past through time travel). When they came out the other end, they found the Mushroom Kingdom, and then there's a continuity gap. They're on the cliff with Peach, and then they're in the Land of Ice. If you listen to the lyrics, you'll notice that the events that are missing are those in SMB. So, the show pics up after Peach is rescued, and states that they found themselves on the run from Bowser (again, "The Bird! The Bird!").

So, there you have it. It's much more spelled out than the connections between, say, Yoshi's Island and Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time, wouldn't you say?
 

Stumpers

Hammer Bro.
Retired Wiki Staff
Can we please try to get this over with quick? I'm finding more and more things that are explained when the games and TV show are looked at in conjunction: the enigmatic Super Mario 64 official players guide comment and Mario quote from Mario's Time Machine that Mario was once a Brooklynite, the point in time when Toad became a Mushroom Retainer (the show claims him to be during the events, way before Super Mario RPG, see Trojan Koopa). Anyway, if no one responds to this soon, I'm going to go ahead and bring this issue to the Wiki talk pages, ok? If you have issue with it, let me know ASAP.
 

Booster

Cheep Cheep
Retired Wiki Staff
I'm just wondering how to fit the Baby Mario games into the original Brooklyn scenario. Miyamoto didn't conceive the Brooklyn backstory, and it was made up by either Nintendo of America or DIC because they wanted to explain how two Italian-American plumbers wound up in the Mushroom Kingdom, and there was no real history to work with.

Now, Miyamoto came along and developed his vision of Mario's past and threw out the American backstory. However, I think we should still consider the cartoons and comics official, despite artistic differences and retconning, since they were written with the games in mind. The movie, however, is another universe.

Question is, how do we say that Mario and Luigi wound up in Brooklyn after being brought up in the Mushroom Kingdom without resorting to fan-based theories?
 

3Dejong

THIS PERSONAL TEXT IS SILLY!
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I think, in some Super Mario Bros. manual, it says they came after finding a pipe in the original Mario Bros. game that took them to the Mushroom Kingdom.
 

Booster

Cheep Cheep
Retired Wiki Staff
Super Mario Bros. Instruction Booklet
http://www.atarihq.com/tsr/manuals/smb1.txt

Object of the game/Game description

One day the kingdom of the peaceful mushroom people was invaded by the Koopa,
a tribe of turtles famous for their black magic. The quiet, peace-loving
Mushroom People were turned into mere stones, bricks and even field horse-
hair plants, and the Mushroom Kingdom fell into ruin.

The only one who can undo the magic spell on the Mushroom People and return
them to their normal selves is the Princess Toadstool, the daughter of the
Mushroom King. Unfortunately, she is presently in the hands of the great
Koopa turtle king.

Mario, the hero of this story (maybe) hears about the Mushroom People's
plight and sets out on a quest to free the Mushroom Princess from the evil
Koopa and restore the fallen kingdom of the Mushroom People.

You are Mario! It's up to you to save the Mushroom People from the black
magic of the Koopa!
It says nothing about Mario finding a warp pipe or anything like that.
 

Stumpers

Hammer Bro.
Retired Wiki Staff
Here's my view on this: we all have a personal canon we use to explain the bits and pieces of the story we have been given. I don't feel that we have the right to, for whatever reason, exclude parts of this story because we feel a certain way about it. That's point-of-view. It is not up to us to decide what fits and what doesn't, it's up to us to fit together what is presented as being in the same timeline. So, the film sets up another universe. The TV show and comics stay in the same universe presented by the video games. Both present the events of "Super Mario Bros." as a significant part of the story.

Plus, doesn't it seem strange that, in order to write a complete section about the TV shows we have to explain events in the video games? (Bowser's attacks in SMB, SMB3, and SMW) To me, it appears that we have separated the TV shows from the video games not because it makes better sense from the Wiki standpoint (as has been done with the sports titles and spin-offs), but to enforce one person's personal canon that has become accepted by fans (not necesarily any Nintendo officials) as time has passed.
 

Booster

Cheep Cheep
Retired Wiki Staff
Stumpers said:
Here's my view on this: we all have a personal canon we use to explain the bits and pieces of the story we have been given. I don't feel that we have the right to, for whatever reason, exclude parts of this story because we feel a certain way about it. That's point-of-view. It is not up to us to decide what fits and what doesn't, it's up to us to fit together what is presented as being in the same timeline. So, the film sets up another universe. The TV show and comics stay in the same universe presented by the video games. Both present the events of "Super Mario Bros." as a significant part of the story.

Plus, doesn't it seem strange that, in order to write a complete section about the TV shows we have to explain events in the video games? (Bowser's attacks in SMB, SMB3, and SMW) To me, it appears that we have separated the TV shows from the video games not because it makes better sense from the Wiki standpoint (as has been done with the sports titles and spin-offs), but to enforce one person's personal canon that has become accepted by fans (not necesarily any Nintendo officials) as time has passed.
I more or less agree with what you're saying. I just don't know how we should explain how Mario and Luigi got from the Mushroom Kingdom to Brooklyn because there's no official explaination. Here's a popular theory:

Despite being brought up in the Mushroom Kingdom, Mario and Luigi's parents have an Italian background. Remember that many cultural aspects of Earth can be found on Mushroom World. At some point, when Mario and Luigi were still very young, their parents moved from the Mushroom Kingdom to Brooklyn, possibly to protect the babies from the Koopa Troop after several attacks (Yoshi's Island/DS, M&L:PiT). However, Mario and Luigi were too young to remember any of this, and it's likely that their parents kept it a secret from them. While the Marios were gone, the Koopa Troop still caused trouble (Yoshi's Story), but it was nothing the Mushroom Kingdom or their allies couldn't handle.

Years later, Bowser grew up, expanded the Koopa Troop, and successfully took over the Mushroom Kingdom. Things seemed hopeless, as everyone in the Mushroom Kingdom was either enslaved or turned into bricks. Somehow, a mysterious force was used to call back Mario and Luigi, as it sensed that they were the only ones capable of stopping Bowser. This force pulled the plumbers down a drainpipe and opened a Warp Zone to the Mushroom Kingdom. There they discovered the situation, and set off to rescue the princess, so that she could undo Bowser's magic. They were given the opportunity to return home (Brooklyn Bound), but passed it up to stay in the Mushroom Kingdom to keep protecting it. Even when they did make it back, (Flatbush Koopa/TAoSMB3), their decision stayed the same.
 

Stumpers

Hammer Bro.
Retired Wiki Staff
That does make sense, and I do find the fact that a theory like that can be reduced to very little speculation a little wild... maybe it's that whole Miyamoto leaving the continuity open... I can't believe that's actually worked so far!

The only thing you really speculate about was the reason for the Warp Pipe and the reason for the move. We do know, however, that Mario was a Brooklynite from Mario's Time Machine... which is a video game source, right? I know not everyone will be convinced because it didn't have the Official Nintendo Seal, but that applied only to games released on Nintendo consoles during this period of time (see Wikipedia).

But as to what we should say, let's acknowledge the inconsistency like any other. Note it, then move on down the timeline. In other words, note that a move must have occured between the events of Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time and the Super Show, and state that the reason is unknown. I'm not sure if it would be too speculative to include that it did come after those tramatic occurances. (it would distress the parents much, yeah?)

Anyway, the bottom line is this: if we note what information comes from which source, people who don't like the show can read over paragraphs, etc. that discribe information they consider non-canonical. The rest of the readers can read them and make judgements for themselves. It's the only truely honest way I can think of doing this. If you want to see this in action, again I have tried this at:

http://www.mariowiki.com/User:Stumpers/Archive_1

Can I upload this onto the Mario article? What do you think?
 

Booster

Cheep Cheep
Retired Wiki Staff
That does sound good. But I just realized something.

What about Mario and Luigi's extended family, like their cousins and aunts? If Mario and Luigi and Luigi moved to Brooklyn from the Mushroom Kingdom, where did characters like Marianne and Luigi Bob, who visit them at Mario Brothers Plumbing, come from? Should we just note them as incosistencies?
 

Stumpers

Hammer Bro.
Retired Wiki Staff
I always figured that the Marios originally were real worlders (hense the Italian bit), then the parents moved to Mushroom World, then back to the Real World. But: it's a can of worms we really shouldn't open. I think it would be fine to point out that they live in the real world and ignore the issue of their relations to the Mushroom World.
 

Stumpers

Hammer Bro.
Retired Wiki Staff
I know one of the big arguements against the show is that the characters or events never effect the games... here's a few examples that disproves the theory:

Characters and Items that First Appeared:
Baby Mario -- Toddler Terrors of Time Travel (if I remebered the title)
Baby Luigi -- same
Baby Bowser -- same
Baby Peach -- Two Plumbers and a Baby
Pill Palls -- Rock TV

Hmm... that's all I have for now. I guess you could also consider the Mario is Missing reference to Brooklyn a reference to the three TV shows.
 

Booster

Cheep Cheep
Retired Wiki Staff
That Pal Pill thing is weird...

Anyhow, other than the Brooklyn backstory, there's little else I can think of right now in the TV shows that contradict the games' continuity, save for the events of Do You Princess Toadstool Take This Koopa? and Mama Luigi. Oh, and Luigi's comment on Mario being born with a plunger in his hand from Plumbers Academy, unless it was a joke.

OK, here's a theory...

While they were babies, Mario and Luigi's parents moved them to Brooklyn to keep them safe from Kamek, where they were adopted by an Italian family whose last name happened to be Mario. This would allow for their Earth relatives to fit into the timeline; they're related through adoption. Meanwhile, Mario and Luigi's parents in the Mushroom Kingdom disappeared (died?) while they were gone, and they never learned the truth.
 
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