Star Wars in General (Movies, Shows, Books, Games, etc.)
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Dr. Javelin
Nathan Latsk
So I saw it.
My gut reaction was that this is the most confusing piece of garbage I ever watched, but after examining that reaction I found that that can also be applied to the original trilogy. The only reason the original trilogy didn't confuse me is because I already knew all the answers to my questions from the Expanded Universe. So why was I fine with that and not this?
I think it's the characters.
I just couldn't get behind any of the goals of these characters.
Those are sort of the main characters, right?
tl;dr: i hated this movie at first, but i'm not entirely sure why. please help me understand
My gut reaction was that this is the most confusing piece of garbage I ever watched, but after examining that reaction I found that that can also be applied to the original trilogy. The only reason the original trilogy didn't confuse me is because I already knew all the answers to my questions from the Expanded Universe. So why was I fine with that and not this?
I think it's the characters.
I just couldn't get behind any of the goals of these characters.
I mean, did they have goals? Did Rey have a goal at all? Did Fin have a goal other than "run away", which he eventually just ignored because... he wanted to save Rey? But why was he so willing to leave just minutes before? They were just kind of there, and things sort of happened to them, and then they did stuff.
Someone needs to help me understand what the motivations of these characters was, because so far all I know is:
Someone needs to help me understand what the motivations of these characters was, because so far all I know is:
- Rey wants to go back to her planet to wait for some family or something, but then she doesn't? She wants to see Luke? Why does she want to see Luke? Why does she even know who Luke is?
- Fin wants to escape the First Order. Okay. He does that. Then I guess he wants to save Rey. My only problem is that the two characters never really like... connected? They were stuck together, then they had one scene in the Falcon and suddenly they're best friends who can never leave each other? I dunno, maybe I just didn't buy it. I was mostly okay with him though, I think this would have been a better movie if it was just him.
- Han Solo wants to, uh, get the Falcon back. Sort of. Or he's escaping from the gangs. Or he's trying to get his son to return. I guess that kind of makes sense, but I never got a chance to see why his son left in the first place or anything. Honestly, even though he was the only part of the movie I (mostly) liked, I feel like he shouldn't have had as big a role. Let the new kids take the focus.
- Kylo Ren wants to get rid of Jedi, and also he hates his parents. Okay. That's a goal. ...why does he want any of this again? Also thought that maybe we should have saved the big reveal for later, but meh.
Magikrazy said:
Was that supposed to be Ackbar? I thought that was just a Mon Calamarian.
Not all Mon Calamarians are Ackbar. You racist.
Not all Mon Calamarians are Ackbar. You racist.
Magikrazy said:
idk i for one think it does make sense seeing how r2 deliberately only chose to wake up after han died, and also he keeps calling c3po something in his language.
Dr. Javelin
Nathan Latsk
R2 waking up seemed like complete deus ex machina; there was literally no reason he shouldn't have woken up when the new droid popped up with the last map piece.
I mean, why even show that he was there earlier? Why not just have BB-8 discover him at the end?
I mean, why even show that he was there earlier? Why not just have BB-8 discover him at the end?
Nabber
Artisanal Cheese Taster
introduce the rebels, you need to introduce c3po and r2d2
im not completely bothered by that particular point since the whole starkiller base thing was obviously more of a priority and that only took an hour anyway, so it's not like it really took r2 too long to come to senses, but I do agree it's not exactly strong writing
im not completely bothered by that particular point since the whole starkiller base thing was obviously more of a priority and that only took an hour anyway, so it's not like it really took r2 too long to come to senses, but I do agree it's not exactly strong writing
Saw it today. Was pretty great. Lots of fun shout-outs to the original trilogy (pretty much anything to do with the Falcon was awesome), likeable new characters (I was particularly skeptical of BB-8 going in, since I didn't think the droid duo needed another member, but that little guy is freakin' adorable, omg), and an interesting plot that left me looking forward to the next movie.
Javelin said:
Rey's been living day to day all her life using the futile hope that her family would come back for her to keep her going, all the while literally living in the wreckage of the Empire and Rebel Alliance, giving her a deep fascination with the old stories. Deep down, she knows her folks are not coming back, but she's scared of facing that reality, and then all the force shit goes down and she is very unsuccessful with trying to escape it, instead getting kidnapped and discovering her Jedi powers via. trial by fire. By the end, she's realizing she can't go back to her old life, and decides to go to the one dude who can properly teach her about what's happening to her (since she heard about Luke from the legends, and also Leia and the other would have told her more and encouraged her to go, since she's got the Force).
The idea is that they're friends forged in fire, I guess: you bond with people pretty quickly when your lives are in each others' hands, especially if you didn't have any friends until then - much less hadn't been treated as a human by anyone until then, in Fin's case. Plus, he knew how bad the First Order was - he was willing to ditch Rey when she wasn't in immediate danger, but he couldn't leave her to them once she was kidnapped, so he agreed to help the Resistance to that end. He also might have a crush on her? Either way, the personal connection makes more sense than if he suddenly decided to be a big hero, and if you think about it, Han Solo had a similar change of heart due to his adventure on the Death Star with Luke and Leia, so I dunno, I was willing to go along with it.
Han's just aimlessly smuggling around and getting into trouble as always, is lucky enough to get the Falcon back, is unlucky enough to get involved with the current Resistance stuff at the same time, and then things get heavy and he recognizes that he's needed once more and steps up, since he's always been a good guy like that. And like any parent, he wants his angsty kid back from the dangerous and evil gang he's unwisely hitched his ride to, and takes a risk to try and talk him into coming home before he gets blown up with his space station. But even if you weren't a fan of him in this one, you can be happy that he won't be able to hog the spotlight anymore in future films on account of being dead: the torch has been passed (right through him)
And Kylo Ren is a mixed up kid who fell in with the wrong crowd, due to Snoke convincing him that the only way he'd live up to his legacy and be as strong as Darth Vader is by joining the Dark Side. So like Anakin, he killed all the other Jedi kids and put on a mask and is leading the evil army around, only unlike Vader, he's still a kid and doesn't command the same respect and fear yet (the general certainly doesn't think much of him), which, along with his self-doubts, fuels his "gotta be stronger, gotta be badder" drive. He kills his dad to finally kill the last bit of lightness within him, thinking it's what's holding him back, but it was probably a mistake, and Han was probably right that Snoke's just using him, like Palpatine and Vader. Actually, Kylo Ren is doing a great job at following his granddaddy's footsteps in general - minus the love story soap opera and terrible dialogue, of course.
At first, I was also surprised they revealed who he was so early, but really, it makes sense, since then they can directly address Han and Leia's backstory without needing to artificially dance around the root of it all, plus then when he takes off his mask and is a kid, the lack of menace makes total sense instead of being a jarring moment of disillusionment. Also, let's face it, a direct parallel with the iconic "I am your father" line would have been cheesy, but as it was, we still got a parent-child conflict above a bottomless pit, but with an ending more like old man "Ben" Kenobi vs. Darth Vader, complete with horrified youngsters in audience. And while the iconic line wasn't there, the "I destroyed the old me" rhetoric than Kenobi once tried to use to explain away his "Vader killed your dad" lie to Luke does came back - and again, it feels like this Ben's just spouting hot air too. It was all very interesting. Although Chewie shooting him in retaliation was my fave part of it all - a very real and proper reaction, but also an unexpected jolt.
As for R2-D2 waking up, yeah, I wasn't feelin' that either. I read online that the novelization explains that he heard people talking about the star map and booted back up, but it seemed like a really contrived way of delaying the "yay, completed map" bit. Like, if R2 was awake all along, and it was just, he needed time to retrieve the map from his memory banks (insert droid banter about getting old and defective), and then everyone were so caught up in almost being exploded that they put off the map stuff for a bit - until he finishes debugging or whatever in time to cheer everyone up a bit from their Han mourning, that would have been easier to swallow.
Aside from that, my only real complaint is that those planets were all hella close together. Like, was the whole Republic in one star system? And then they didn't notice that an extra planet turned up one day and started soaking up the sun? There weren't that many planets to lose count of...
The idea is that they're friends forged in fire, I guess: you bond with people pretty quickly when your lives are in each others' hands, especially if you didn't have any friends until then - much less hadn't been treated as a human by anyone until then, in Fin's case. Plus, he knew how bad the First Order was - he was willing to ditch Rey when she wasn't in immediate danger, but he couldn't leave her to them once she was kidnapped, so he agreed to help the Resistance to that end. He also might have a crush on her? Either way, the personal connection makes more sense than if he suddenly decided to be a big hero, and if you think about it, Han Solo had a similar change of heart due to his adventure on the Death Star with Luke and Leia, so I dunno, I was willing to go along with it.
Han's just aimlessly smuggling around and getting into trouble as always, is lucky enough to get the Falcon back, is unlucky enough to get involved with the current Resistance stuff at the same time, and then things get heavy and he recognizes that he's needed once more and steps up, since he's always been a good guy like that. And like any parent, he wants his angsty kid back from the dangerous and evil gang he's unwisely hitched his ride to, and takes a risk to try and talk him into coming home before he gets blown up with his space station. But even if you weren't a fan of him in this one, you can be happy that he won't be able to hog the spotlight anymore in future films on account of being dead: the torch has been passed (right through him)
And Kylo Ren is a mixed up kid who fell in with the wrong crowd, due to Snoke convincing him that the only way he'd live up to his legacy and be as strong as Darth Vader is by joining the Dark Side. So like Anakin, he killed all the other Jedi kids and put on a mask and is leading the evil army around, only unlike Vader, he's still a kid and doesn't command the same respect and fear yet (the general certainly doesn't think much of him), which, along with his self-doubts, fuels his "gotta be stronger, gotta be badder" drive. He kills his dad to finally kill the last bit of lightness within him, thinking it's what's holding him back, but it was probably a mistake, and Han was probably right that Snoke's just using him, like Palpatine and Vader. Actually, Kylo Ren is doing a great job at following his granddaddy's footsteps in general - minus the love story soap opera and terrible dialogue, of course.
At first, I was also surprised they revealed who he was so early, but really, it makes sense, since then they can directly address Han and Leia's backstory without needing to artificially dance around the root of it all, plus then when he takes off his mask and is a kid, the lack of menace makes total sense instead of being a jarring moment of disillusionment. Also, let's face it, a direct parallel with the iconic "I am your father" line would have been cheesy, but as it was, we still got a parent-child conflict above a bottomless pit, but with an ending more like old man "Ben" Kenobi vs. Darth Vader, complete with horrified youngsters in audience. And while the iconic line wasn't there, the "I destroyed the old me" rhetoric than Kenobi once tried to use to explain away his "Vader killed your dad" lie to Luke does came back - and again, it feels like this Ben's just spouting hot air too. It was all very interesting. Although Chewie shooting him in retaliation was my fave part of it all - a very real and proper reaction, but also an unexpected jolt.
As for R2-D2 waking up, yeah, I wasn't feelin' that either. I read online that the novelization explains that he heard people talking about the star map and booted back up, but it seemed like a really contrived way of delaying the "yay, completed map" bit. Like, if R2 was awake all along, and it was just, he needed time to retrieve the map from his memory banks (insert droid banter about getting old and defective), and then everyone were so caught up in almost being exploded that they put off the map stuff for a bit - until he finishes debugging or whatever in time to cheer everyone up a bit from their Han mourning, that would have been easier to swallow.
Aside from that, my only real complaint is that those planets were all hella close together. Like, was the whole Republic in one star system? And then they didn't notice that an extra planet turned up one day and started soaking up the sun? There weren't that many planets to lose count of...
Dr. Javelin
Nathan Latsk
I didn't get any of that background stuff from Rey, since her entire backstory is contained in a really, really short flashback thing. But okay, whatever, backstories aren't the most important thing. But... she just comes across as ridiculously "able" for a main protagonist.
Man, back in my day, people had to work for their magic powers. Luke wasn't told about the force and was suddenly able to mind trick Stormtroopers, or grab blasters. He had to learn to let go, to trust in the Force even though it seemed really stupid, or might not even exist. It took him until Episode V to (barely) manage a Force Pull, and he ended up getting beat really badly in his first fight with Vader. Even after spending tons of time training with one of the greatest Jedi Masters!
I wasn't entirely sure why this bothered me so much until someone on reddit brought up that it's a textbook case of Mary Sue.
I wanted to like this. There were several parts where I was feeling the spirit. Han and Chewie felt good together, like it was the same shifty duo from A New Hope (even if their freighter filled with weird stupid space beasts was a really, really stupid scene). They definitely made me laugh quite a few times. Chewie, in particular, was probably the best in this movie that he's ever been. (Other than the fact that he was, apparently, only sad about Han's death for all of five minutes before he is perfectly okay with letting some stranger fly the ship in Han's place.) Fin felt like a genuine character to me, and even though his introduction was rushed a bit, he still had an exciting escape scene. The interaction between the land battle/air battle on that cantina planet thing was top-notch action! My favorite shot in the whole movie is Fin fighting while overhead you see one X-Wing just going to town, gunning down what I think counted was eight TIE Fighters in as many seconds! So great!
But the movie just felt weighed down and rushed to me, trying to be almost exactly like A New Hope. Rey is there and is learning the Force because that's what Luke did. There's a cantina scene because we have to have one (they literally go out of their way just to land at this random planet to go to this one cantina). Fin wants to run away for like five seconds because that's what Han did in A New Hope, right? We have a planet destroying planet looking thing because A New Hope did it. We blew up a planet because A New Hope did it. We killed off the mentor character because A New Hope did it.
What if, instead of just referencing the old movies so much, we just... took Star Wars in a new direction? That's what I thought would happen at first, with Fin. Oh hey look, it's a Stormtrooper struggling with his duties! Maybe he'll have to deal with trying to pretend to work with them, then eventually escape and be chased by the cool-looking Chrometrooper! Learn to work with his cool friend, Poe (that was his name, right?)! So many great possibilities from the intro!
But as I was watching more and more, the movie just kinda slowly descended into checking off the boxes of "A New Hope did this, so we gotta do it too". Opportunity completely wasted.
I'm not afraid of new. I just feel like almost everything in this movie was crammed into one mess of an idea, and just copy-pasted A New Hope when they weren't entirely sure where there plot was going.
- "Hey look I can fly ships really well." Uh, ok, maybe she learned that while stuck here.
- "Did I mention I can also fix them really well?" Sure, I guess, fits in with her scavenger background.
- "I can resist the dark side's mind reading!" Well, I suppose that's possible, Leia was also mentioned to have strong willpower...
- "Hey, I can do Jedi Mind Tricks already!" Wait, what? How do you even know what a Jedi Mind Trick is?
- "And I can pull lightsabers away from the guy who's (supposedly) been training with the Force for awhile!" Seriously???
- "And I also know how to use this lightsaber in a fight with him, despite having literally zero experience!"
Man, back in my day, people had to work for their magic powers. Luke wasn't told about the force and was suddenly able to mind trick Stormtroopers, or grab blasters. He had to learn to let go, to trust in the Force even though it seemed really stupid, or might not even exist. It took him until Episode V to (barely) manage a Force Pull, and he ended up getting beat really badly in his first fight with Vader. Even after spending tons of time training with one of the greatest Jedi Masters!
I wasn't entirely sure why this bothered me so much until someone on reddit brought up that it's a textbook case of Mary Sue.
I wanted to like this. There were several parts where I was feeling the spirit. Han and Chewie felt good together, like it was the same shifty duo from A New Hope (even if their freighter filled with weird stupid space beasts was a really, really stupid scene). They definitely made me laugh quite a few times. Chewie, in particular, was probably the best in this movie that he's ever been. (Other than the fact that he was, apparently, only sad about Han's death for all of five minutes before he is perfectly okay with letting some stranger fly the ship in Han's place.) Fin felt like a genuine character to me, and even though his introduction was rushed a bit, he still had an exciting escape scene. The interaction between the land battle/air battle on that cantina planet thing was top-notch action! My favorite shot in the whole movie is Fin fighting while overhead you see one X-Wing just going to town, gunning down what I think counted was eight TIE Fighters in as many seconds! So great!
But the movie just felt weighed down and rushed to me, trying to be almost exactly like A New Hope. Rey is there and is learning the Force because that's what Luke did. There's a cantina scene because we have to have one (they literally go out of their way just to land at this random planet to go to this one cantina). Fin wants to run away for like five seconds because that's what Han did in A New Hope, right? We have a planet destroying planet looking thing because A New Hope did it. We blew up a planet because A New Hope did it. We killed off the mentor character because A New Hope did it.
What if, instead of just referencing the old movies so much, we just... took Star Wars in a new direction? That's what I thought would happen at first, with Fin. Oh hey look, it's a Stormtrooper struggling with his duties! Maybe he'll have to deal with trying to pretend to work with them, then eventually escape and be chased by the cool-looking Chrometrooper! Learn to work with his cool friend, Poe (that was his name, right?)! So many great possibilities from the intro!
But as I was watching more and more, the movie just kinda slowly descended into checking off the boxes of "A New Hope did this, so we gotta do it too". Opportunity completely wasted.
I'm not afraid of new. I just feel like almost everything in this movie was crammed into one mess of an idea, and just copy-pasted A New Hope when they weren't entirely sure where there plot was going.