Author Topic: Music limit  (Read 489 times)

TtA

  • Toadette the Achiever
  • Goomba
  • *
  • The Most Noteworthy User On This Wiki
    • View Profile
Music limit
« on: December 03, 2018, 09:50:14 AM »
According to Help:Media:
Quote
Music tracks that are longer than 30 seconds should be clipped to 30 seconds or less.
I have a number of problems with this policy, including the following:
  • Thirty seconds seems like way too low for a limit.
  • No explanation has been given as to why the limit is in place, especially given how low it is.
  • The limit feels like an overly dramatic loss of information, which feels incredibly counterproductive for the wiki.
  • There's even a rule stated earlier that seems to directly contradict the premise of the thirty-second limit (see below):
Quote
Music clips are also acceptable, but it is recommended that they fade out after the song loops once back to an earlier part, rather than end abruptly (see Audacity).
(Except most of the time you have no choice but to end the music abruptly with the limit in place.)

Really, I'm seeing no real benefit to this limit at all. It would help if there was kind of an explanation as to why the limit is the way it is, otherwise I would suggest greatly extending it or removing it entirely.
Toadette Fanboy FOREVEEEEEER!

Hibiki Tachibana

  • also known as Blocky
  • Global Moderator
  • Power Star
  • *****
  • Superchao
  • Gekisou Gungnir
    • View Profile
Re: Music limit
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2018, 10:27:06 AM »
the limit is basically so the wiki can't end up hosting an entire game soundtrack and become legally liable for infringing copyright

cutting music short forestalls that by preventing whole versions of songs from being on the wiki

TtA

  • Toadette the Achiever
  • Goomba
  • *
  • The Most Noteworthy User On This Wiki
    • View Profile
Re: Music limit
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2018, 11:11:17 AM »
the limit is basically so the wiki can't end up hosting an entire game soundtrack and become legally liable for infringing copyright

cutting music short forestalls that by preventing whole versions of songs from being on the wiki

Thanks, but if that's the case, then why even bother uploading music tracks to begin with? Also, I may not be familiar with international copyright laws, but I'm fairly certain our current usage qualifies under fair use as long as the quality of the affected OGA files is slightly reduced. In fact, it would likely be better if we slightly reduced the quality of the sound instead to satisfy both fair use and a presence of information.
Toadette Fanboy FOREVEEEEEER!

Alex95

  • NIWA Nut
  • Wiki Administrator
  • Dry Bowser
  • ****
    • View Profile
    • Power Master Games
Re: Music limit
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2018, 11:32:47 AM »
This was talked about on the admin board, so it was put into effect quietly. Here's some things that were said:

Quote from: Glowsquid
The wiki owes its continued existence to the principle of fair use in US Law, that is, the concept that the wiki can use a sparse and only strictly necessary amount of copyrighted material (including, but not limited to character artwork, music, and transcripts directly from the games) for an educational purpose.

Now, a *lot* of things on the wiki stretch the concept of fair use. Uplading a few pictures of Mario to illustrate what he looks like and how his appearance evolved throughout the series can be defended as fair use, but uploading every visual representations of Mario ever at the highest quality available, much less so. But hoarding characters artworks isn't considered a problem because there's an implicit understanding Nintendo has yet to action people for using Mario artwork in an unauthorized but non-commercial context and also because uploading these artworks does not compete with or undermine a product Nintendo is selling., Full soundtrack uploads, however, do ands that's why we were worried.

Quote from: Tucayo
I think it's not what our licensing says but rather what the music's licensing says. If it's up for sale then I'm willing to bet it's license does not allow what we are doing. I agree with Glowsquid, it's a big risk and not something we should take a chance on.

Quote from: Porplemontage
Just to piggyback and summarize, our Creative Commons license only applies to the text that users submit to us. All copyrighted material uploaded to the wiki is done so with an understanding that it's Fair Use.

Now, just the way the Internet is, a lot of sites stretch the definition of Fair Use. But I never considered hosting music to be a critical part of our encyclopedic mission anyway, so it should be limited.

Porple was also the one that made it policy.

Thanks, but if that's the case, then why even bother uploading music tracks to begin with?

I think it's still important to document them, even in snipits. EDIT: In other words, we're trying to not be a music host, but music is something we should still document as it is one of the many and familiar aspects of the Mario franchise.

Lakituthequick

  • with lowercase T and Q
  • Awards Committee
  • Celestial Guide
  • ***
  • Rest in Peace, Walkazo 😢
    • View Profile
Re: Music limit
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2018, 11:47:31 AM »
Relevant discussion on Discord from 15 August:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Yoshi the SSM

  • (Space Station Manager)
  • King Bowser
  • *****
  • I'm Yoshi the Space Station Manager from the wiki.
    • View Profile
Re: Music limit
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2018, 12:07:59 PM »
I can see where it is problematic, but I also see why it should be enforced.

For enforcing, here is a quote of the soundclip license.
Quote
This is a sample from a copyrighted musical recording. The person who uploaded this work and first used it in an article, and subsequent people who use it in articles, assert that this qualifies as fair use under United States copyright law, where:
  • The sample is being used for commentary on the music recording in question, and contributes significantly to the encyclopedia articles it is used in (listed under the heading "File links" below) in a way that cannot be duplicated by other forms of media.
  • The sample is short in relation to the duration of the recorded track and is of an inferior quality to the original recording.
  • No other samples from the same track are used on the MarioWiki.
  • There is no adequate free alternative available.
  • A more detailed fair use rationale may be provided by the user who uploaded this recording.
Note that the template hasn't changed in a year.

But, it becomes problematic when you say 30 seconds for something like Jump Up, Super Star with there already being a short version longer than 30 seconds. Maybe Rainbow Road (N64) too? but it has no shorter version.
I don't have time to give you a ride, I am managing a space station. And ask me something here:www.marioboards.com/index.php?topic=38633.msg1934343#msg1934343

TtA

  • Toadette the Achiever
  • Goomba
  • *
  • The Most Noteworthy User On This Wiki
    • View Profile
Re: Music limit
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2018, 12:58:36 PM »
I can see where it is problematic, but I also see why it should be enforced.

For enforcing, here is a quote of the soundclip license.
Quote
This is a sample from a copyrighted musical recording. The person who uploaded this work and first used it in an article, and subsequent people who use it in articles, assert that this qualifies as fair use under United States copyright law, where:
  • The sample is being used for commentary on the music recording in question, and contributes significantly to the encyclopedia articles it is used in (listed under the heading "File links" below) in a way that cannot be duplicated by other forms of media.
  • The sample is short in relation to the duration of the recorded track and is of an inferior quality to the original recording.
  • No other samples from the same track are used on the MarioWiki.
  • There is no adequate free alternative available.
  • A more detailed fair use rationale may be provided by the user who uploaded this recording.
Note that the template hasn't changed in a year.

But, it becomes problematic when you say 30 seconds for something like Jump Up, Super Star with there already being a short version longer than 30 seconds. Maybe Rainbow Road (N64) too? but it has no shorter version.
The bolded part above (and the part about not ending music abruptly) is the exact problem with enforcing this rule.
Toadette Fanboy FOREVEEEEEER!

Dr. Baby Luigi

  • Mushroom Kingdom's Most Adorable Doctor
  • Mushroom Attendant
  • *******
  • Baby Luigi
  • 🇷🇺 Малыш Луиджи 🇷🇺 сырная бл🧀🧀🧀 Тарелка!
    • View Profile
Re: Music limit
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2018, 03:02:43 PM »
If anything, I personally think our coverage in audio in general needs to be expanded upon. Sound and music is an important part of the game, and our game articles never talk about them in much detail unless an official soundtrack is released. btw, 30 seconds for a regular length Mario song are fine. Mario music rarely exceeds 2 or 3 minutes without looping back, that's pretty much their nature. It's adequate enough to cover the mood of the song.

Personally, I think music files are in a foggy situation. It's weird we're not allowed to upload music files but it's okay to link to them on YouTube (like in the My Music articles in MarioWiki) in which that case they're specifically uploaded by third party, non-licensed holders who own the music (which could be undermined by ads but that's about it..?)

Also, I'm not a huge fan of how the music limit was implemented in the wiki. The policy was changed behind the scenes as a simple edit on recent changes among many, without informing anyone at all. I wouldn't be surprised if wiki editors continued to upload music in their entirety without changing anything about it
RIP B. "Walkazo" Dalziel. December 16, 1991 to March 27, 2016.

Dr. Mario

  • Mushroom Kingdom's OG Woo Meister
  • Donkey Kong
  • *******
  • LeftyGreenMario
  • R.I.P. Walkazo December 16, 1991 - March 27, 2016
    • View Profile
    • RationalWiki
Re: Music limit
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2018, 03:19:32 PM »
If Nintendo has a Youtube that hosts music, should that be the alternative to uploading music tracks? How about third-party uploaders that host music?

Dr. Baby Luigi

  • Mushroom Kingdom's Most Adorable Doctor
  • Mushroom Attendant
  • *******
  • Baby Luigi
  • 🇷🇺 Малыш Луиджи 🇷🇺 сырная бл🧀🧀🧀 Тарелка!
    • View Profile
Re: Music limit
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2018, 04:08:44 PM »
I don't think Nintendo has a YouTube channel that hosts music but if it does, then I guess that means it's okay to link to it...?

I'm not sure about the legality of third-party uploaders that host video game music. There's a ton of them out there (Smash Custom Music, KHInsider, Galbadia Hotel, etc), some more restrictive than others, and I wouldn't say they're necessarily illegal sites, not in the black like torrent sites anyway.
RIP B. "Walkazo" Dalziel. December 16, 1991 to March 27, 2016.