Smash Bros. Character/Roster Merit

[3D Player 2004]

The problem with your logic in Daisy moveset potential is:
Your suggestion for a basic spinoff moveset would be literally scraping the bottom of the barrel in moveset. Daisy has an identity that you don't seem to realize. Unlike Waluigi who just so happens to be Luigi's Wario, Daisy is more than just Luigi's peach both in terms of personality and abilities. She has been very well developed through the spinoffs to the point of arguably having more personality than Bowser Jr even. And she'd be useful to complete a character square existant in canon that has existed 3/4 since Melee.

 

[MoonAge]

The problem with your logic in Daisy moveset potential is:
Your suggestion for a basic spinoff moveset would be literally scraping the bottom of the barrel in moveset. Daisy has an identity that you don't seem to realize. Unlike Waluigi who just so happens to be Luigi's Wario, Daisy is more than just Luigi's peach both in terms of personality and abilities. She has been very well developed through the spinoffs to the point of arguably having more personality than Bowser Jr even. And she'd be useful to complete a character square existant in canon that has existed 3/4 since Melee.

First of all, are you suggesting that Mario spinoffs have a plot, let alone one with Daisy having a role in it?

Second of all, why do you keep making up character shapes?

 

[Yoshi K]

Just because Daisy has moveset potential doesn't mean Nintendo is going to waste money creating it to put in a character a majority of the fanbase hates.

 

[GalacticPetey]

Just because Daisy has moveset potential doesn't mean Nintendo is going to waste money creating it to put in a character a majority of the fanbase hates.

This is sadly why Tingle will never be playable.

He's more important to Zelda than Skull Kid or Midna. After Impa, he's the most logical Zelda character.

The problem with your logic in Daisy moveset potential is:
Your suggestion for a basic spinoff moveset would be literally scraping the bottom of the barrel in moveset. Daisy has an identity that you don't seem to realize. Unlike Waluigi who just so happens to be Luigi's Wario, Daisy is more than just Luigi's peach both in terms of personality and abilities. She has been very well developed through the spinoffs to the point of arguably having more personality than Bowser Jr even. And she'd be useful to complete a character square existant in canon that has existed 3/4 since Melee.

Personality means jack shit in Smash Bros.

 

[3D Player 2004]

Just because Daisy has moveset potential doesn't mean Nintendo is going to waste money creating it to put in a character a majority of the fanbase hates.

You are not correct how many people dislike Daisy. She actually has a bigger fanbase than hatebase. When I played Mario Kart Wii online, I always saw more Daisy than any other Character.

 

[SonicMario]

Just because Daisy has moveset potential doesn't mean Nintendo is going to waste money creating it to put in a character a majority of the fanbase hates.

You are not correct how many people dislike Daisy.

Even if Daisy isn't that hated. There's not that many that actually want her in Smash other then a particular section of the Mario fanbase. Everyone else either doesn't want Daisy because there's already enough Mario characters and/or there are better and much more important Mario characters to choose from.

 

[3D Player 2004]

Just because Daisy has moveset potential doesn't mean Nintendo is going to waste money creating it to put in a character a majority of the fanbase hates.

You are not correct how many people dislike Daisy.

Even if Daisy isn't that hated. There's not that many that actually want her in Smash other then a particular section of the Mario fanbase. Everyone else either doesn't want Daisy because there's already enough Mario characters and/or there are better and much more important Mario characters to choose from.

except neither of these statements are true. She is the only non-generic character who both has appeared in over half of all Mario Karts and isn't in Smash. It is time to change the not in Smash part. Daisy is 5/8. Rosalina is 3/8. Wario is 7/8. Bowser is 8/10 Peach is 7/8. Mario is 8/8. Luigi is 8/8. Yoshi is 8/8. Donkey Kong is 7/8. Diddy Kong is 2/8.

 

[MoonAge]

How many games a character appeared in has nothing to do with getting in Smash. The Ice Climbers only appeared in one game before Melee, and look what happened.

 

[DragonFreak]

How many games a character appeared in has nothing to do with getting in Smash. The Ice Climbers only appeared in one game before Melee, and look what happened.

and the same with Robin and Geninja (technically two).

 

[Yoshi K]

Number of games a character is in =/= Merit for Smash.

I don't see why you can't realize that.

 

[SonicMario]

except neither of these statements are true. She is the only non-generic character who both has appeared in over half of all Mario Karts and isn't in Smash. It is time to change the not in Smash part. Daisy is 5/8. Rosalina is 3/8. Wario is 7/8. Bowser is 8/10 Peach is 7/8. Mario is 8/8. Luigi is 8/8. Yoshi is 8/8. Donkey Kong is 7/8. Diddy Kong is 2/8.

Mario Spin-Offs aren't supposed to be in conjunction with Smash. It just so happens that alot of the characters has earned the merit they've gained on their own. They didn't need the Spin-offs to help them get in Smash cause they've already earned it. Even Rosalina as much as I kinda criticized her still makes more sense then Daisy because she's a representative of a major Mario game that was successful in the Wii era. And her unique puppeteer moveset also helps her even more. Daisy's best bet for her moveset to not be based on the Spin-offs is if it came out of Super Mario Land, which wouldn't make as much sense since Daisy was just the Damsel-in-Distress in the game that you had to save. And Smash Bros. doesn't seem to really rely too much on the Land series anyway. Wario's Moveset is more random and quirky in relation to the WarioWare games rather then the Wario Land games. So Daisy's best bet is a spin-off related moveset, which as I pointed out, does not bode well for her.

Tell me 3D Player. Why does Daisy deserve to be in Smash? Oh and try to respond without resorting to imaginary "Character squares, circles, triangles, etc." to be the sole reason why she does.

 

[Cirdec]

Just because Daisy has moveset potential doesn't mean Nintendo is going to waste money creating it to put in a character a majority of the fanbase hates.

Though, Daisy is popular in Japan.
Lucina was firstly intended to be a Marth clone but finished playable, so I still believe Daisy can be a Peach costume (with face, dress, hair and voice matching Daisy).

 

[Shy Guy Forever]

Just because Daisy has moveset potential doesn't mean Nintendo is going to waste money creating it to put in a character a majority of the fanbase hates.

You are not correct how many people dislike Daisy. She actually has a bigger fanbase than hatebase. When I played Mario Kart Wii online, I always saw more Daisy than any other Character.

Just because a character appears a lot in spin-off games doesn't mean they will be playable. Like Waluigi, for example.

 

[Lumastar]

Can you do several of the confirmed Assist Trophies if they weren't Assist Trophies? Waluigi, Tingle, Saki, and Takamaru would be the best choices. You can also go ahead and do Skull Kid and Midna.

 

[Smashley]

I suggest Starfy and Dillon if you're doing assist trophies.

 

[SonicMario]

I'm afraid I'm not going to do deconfirmed characters. So all currently known Assist Trophies I probably won't do unless I decide to start doing any Smash 5 potential stuff. I'm mainly going for potential characters for Smash 4 for now.

 

[Lumastar]

I'm afraid I'm not going to do deconfirmed characters. So all currently known Assist Trophies I probably won't do unless I decide to start doing any Smash 5 potential stuff. I'm mainly going for potential characters for Smash 4 for now.

I see. In that case can you do several potential Zelda newcomers? At least do Ghirahim and Impa.

 

[Icemario]

How many games a character appeared in has nothing to do with getting in Smash. The Ice Climbers only appeared in one game before Melee, and look what happened.

I don't think R.O.B. has even been in any games besides Brawl.

 

[MoonAge]

How many games a character appeared in has nothing to do with getting in Smash. The Ice Climbers only appeared in one game before Melee, and look what happened.

I don't think R.O.B. has even been in any games besides Brawl.

What about Gyromite, Stack-Up and Mario Kart DS?

 

[Icemario]

How many games a character appeared in has nothing to do with getting in Smash. The Ice Climbers only appeared in one game before Melee, and look what happened.

I don't think R.O.B. has even been in any games besides Brawl.

What about Gyromite, Stack-Up and Mario Kart DS?

Yeah, wasn't too sure about that to begin with.

 

[Magikrazy]

R.O.B. only appeared in Mario Kart DS before Brawl. He was the controller for Gyromite and Stack-Up, not in them.

 

[MoonAge]

True.

 

[SonicMario]

I'll get to Ghirahim and Impa another day. I need to research them a little before really covering their merit. For now let's make this the Potential Mario Newcomer day. The only one of these that might have a chance if they were included to break the Top 10 would possibly be Toad. But the rest wouldn't be on either the best or worst meritable inclusions.



BABY MARIO BROS.

This is a rather really unlikely choice for Smash 4. But I suppose it should be fair enough to get into the merit. I don't need to say too much about the Baby Mario Bros. with this being a Mario forum. They're just Mario and Luigi as babies. They wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in hell if they counted as Mario representatives. However, I don't think that's what the Babies would represent if they were in Smash. It'd make a lot more sense for them to be a 2nd rep of the Yoshi series. Because not only are the babies featured in the story, but in at least one Yoshi game (Yoshi's Island DS) the Babies had gameplay mechanics to them. I imagine if they were included, their moveset would be a combination of the Ice Climbers, Mario, and Luigi. Personally, if there had to be a 2nd Yoshi rep, I'd rather it be Kamek being the Main Antagonist of most of the Yoshi series. But I can't deny that the Babies would be important enough to the Yoshi series to merit being the 2nd rep if the Yoshi series gained a spot. Right now it's not really too necessary to add another Yoshi rep other then Yoshi himself, plus because the Babies are alternate versions of already existing characters. They don't have much popularity to them for Smash. Plus there might be some moral guardians that might take offense to the ability to beat up babies in Smash Bros. Yes I know they have little kids, and of course women in this too. But I would think Babies being characters might be crossing the line for some.

TOAD

Now you may asking. "Why are you covering Toad? Doesn't he count as under the Deconfirmed characters that you're not allowing". While yes, it seems very likely that Toad has already been counted out as of Rosalina's inclusion. I thought I'd cover him anyway because he is kind of a big character. And there might be one thing that gives Toad supporters some glimmer of hope. Especially if DLC Characters are a thing in Smash 4. Again, this being a Mario site. I don't need to say too much about Toad other then he is one of the oldest characters in the series. Being introduced in the same game as Princess Peach, Bowser, and many of the famous enemies in the first Super Mario Bros. game made nearly 30 years ago. And is considered part of the "Big 8" that Mariowiki has constructed of Mario, Luigi, Peach, Donkey Kong, Wario, Bowser, and Toad. However one of these is not like the other apparently in Smash Bros. and Toad is the only one of these 8 that still has not managed to make it into Smash Bros. as his own playable character. Instead he's just a meat shield for Peach and nothing more. And it continues to boggle the mind especially after it seems Rosalina is the new 8th member of the Big 8 at this point. I'm not saying Toad should be in just to complete the constructed Big 8 that the Mariowiki came up with. Because otherwise I come off as hypocritical against 3D Player 2004's reasoning for Daisy's inclusion. The question isn't "Why is everyone of the Big 8 not in Smash?" it's "Why not Toad?". Cause I think it's definitely fair to say Toad has the merit for it. As I said Toad's been in the series since Princess Peach and Bowser have been. Both have been Smash Bros. playable since 2001. Is Peach really the only reason why Toad hasn't been included because Toad is her meatshield? It has to be more then that, they could easily change the model to Toadsworth or a completely different colored Toad from the Playable Toad to make it work. Toad has even been playable in games both far back in the Past and in the Present. Super Mario Bros. 2 and Wario's Woods are just two past examples, and most of the New Super Mario Bros. series games have Blue and Yellow toads playable by the 3rd and 4th players. And the Blue Toad in particular is playable in Super Mario 3D World. At this point, I'm sure being a Toad supporter must be one of the most frustrating things. Because you end up asking "What does Toad have to do exactly to get in Smash that he hasn't done already?!" he has the history, he has the playable appearances, he has the relevancy, he has the moveset potential, and his popularity is decent enough. Just what is preventing Toad from getting into Smash? It's a mystery all around. And it looks like it will likely continue on yet another Console generation.

Well that's not to say there is some decent possibility for hope anyway. Back at E3, we learned of a new game that was a game all about Toad with the Captain Toad game. Call me crazy all you want, but maybe Captain Toad maybe something more then just having a Spin-off game. Now I doubt that the Captain Toad game was even in development at the time the roster was chosen. But if DLC is a thing, Captain Toad might be a good choice to promote the new game. As much as it would be weird that Captain Toad is the representative and not just "THE" Toad. It's frankly been quite confuzzling with just who is "The" Toad as of course in the New Super Mario Bros. games and Super Mario World they had a different colored toad from the Red mushroom with Blue-vest that was Toad's normal old design. Now I'm not saying it's a strong possibility. In fact, I extremely doubt it will happen at all. But there's been a fair amount of Curveballs thrown. Both Greninja's announcement and Robin & Lucina's announcement were perfect examples. The only Newcomers that weren't really Curveballs in any sort of way were the Mii Fighters, Palutena, and Pac-Man. All the ones announced in this year's E3. So just putting it out there. Including Captain Toad would be a way of including the one Mario character that has long earned enough Merit for Smash while also representing Galaxy more then just Rosalina's inclusion. Regardless if Toad managed to make it in some form though. I still say Toad fans will have reason to express bitterness over Rosalina over the way she was announced thanks to that Pic of the Day where Toad's about to be shot with an arrow. Even more so if there's absolutely no playable Toad whatsoever. Cause that's one of the worst ways a character could be deconfirmed. Treated nothing more as a victim or sacrifice to lead up to the introduction of a character that might take whatever roster spot that Character might of been in. All Toad fans that day have my sympathy even if I'm overall ok with Rosalina's inclusion in Smash 4. No character that has as much earned merit as Toad has deserves that fate.

FAWFUL

Fawful… I'm not really sure it's even worth going in-depth with him. He's a decent recurring antagonist in the Mario & Luigi games. But otherwise there is just way too many characters that deserve it more then Fawful. And if Nintendo wanted a representative of the RPGs in the games, I would think even Geno has a better shot then Fawful even if Geno is half-owned by Square. Fawful just isn't that significant enough for a playable role in Smash. He'd be lucky to be an assist trophy to be honest. Let alone Playable.

PAPER MARIO

This is the one character who I think if the RPG Spin-Off games of Mario ever got a rep. Paper Mario would be the most likely. The Paper Mario games (Or at least the first three) are good to great games that even though the first two were RPGs. They're a lot more simplified and easy to follow even for kids to play in comparison to RPGs like the Final Fantasy series which take many, many hours to complete. When with Paper Mario if you knew what you were doing, took less then a week of total Gameplay to complete the story of even the RPG games. With how easy access the Paper Mario games are in comparison to the others, they are arguably the most popular of the Mario RPG Series. As the Paper Mario series uses it's world where all the characters are two-dimensional (In a literal sense, not their personalities) to it's full advantage letting Mario uses his papery form to help him along his adventure. Particularly in Thousand-Year Door more then any other game. Of which could make for some unique stuff if translated into a Smash moveset. Paper Mario as a character would probably combine aspects of Mario and Mr. Game and Watch. And while he is an alternate version of Mario, he has much more potential then Dr. Mario ever had and would potentially redeem the use of alternate versions of already existing characters far more so then Toon Link tries to do. There is a bit of an issue in how his last two games were quite different from the much more popular RPGs that the first two games were. The most ideal moveset for Paper Mario fans would be to include plenty of elements of the first two games. But Smash 4 represents the Wii generation and may borrow more from Super Paper Mario possibly. That said referring to Super Paper Mario for his moveset might be preferable then referencing the most recent game given the reception. Paper Mario Sticker Star, I don't think I've ever said much about it myself. But I do own the game. However I kinda got stuck somewhere in the first world and haven't really played much since. Cause I found the backtracking to find three particular items in separate levels kinda too ridiculous. And maybe that was for the best because from what I've been hearing, Sticker Star doesn't really get better after World 1. Maybe someday if I feel like it's worth finishing the game some day I'll go back to it, but I have other games I want to play plus Smash 4 itself is coming out in only 2 months and I have other things to attend to then try to finish Sticker Star. I'm sure if I ask you guys if I should try to finish it I'll get a resounding No from most of you. But anyway, with the 3DS having a part of the roster as well with both Greninja, Robin, and Lucina's inclusion it's quite possible for Sticker Star to get representation in the Moveset regardless of the poor reception from Longtime Paper Mario fans. I suppose it wouldn't be the only game that had mainly poor reception from loyal fans getting representation in Smash 4, as of course Metroid Other M is being represented not just by Pyrosphere but also Samus' Armor is based on the Other M design. It's that point where if there are enough Paper Mario fans who would like Paper Mario to get in regardless or not if Sticker Star is referred to or not in the moveset. Though I suppose that's similar to how people may be split on if Ridley gets playable if he should be based on the Clone Ridley style (Which I know I didn't exactly mention in the Ridley thing, but it was kind of long enough already) or if they should base it more on something more faithful to his more older appearances. My personal thoughts on Paper Mario being in Smash, it's probably one of the few examples of Alternate Versions of already existing characters that I wouldn't mind being included as long as it still promised a unique moveset of Paper Mario's own. However, regardless of how unique Paper Mario will be his status as an alternate version of Mario will still make him a bit of a controversial choice if he made it playable. I'd say it'd have the potential to be better then Toon Link's inclusion, but I really can't blame someone for not liking another version of Mario making it in out of all the potential Mario characters. As after all, my least favorite inclusion in the series was also another Mario. So I completely understand the opinion that there doesn't need to be two Mario's in Smash Bros. And Paper Mario isn't really that necessary of an inclusion as much as I do like the series. As it does feel a little niche. It's just a possibility that entertains the memories of the excellent memories that the Paper Mario series has provided.

SPECIAL PIC OF THE DAY EDIT: Looks like a Paper Mario stage was just revealed. I do think this raises his chances by at least a decent amount. We've had a few stages that are representative of Newcomers. We have Arena Ferox for the Awakening Characters, Tortimer Island for Villager, all the Mii related stages from Find Mii, Tomodachi Life, and Pilotwings, Wily's Castle for Megaman, Pac-Maze & Pac-Land for Pac-Man, Mario Galaxy for Rosalina, Kalos Pokemon League for Greninja, Palutena's Temple for Palutena, Wii Fit Studio for Wii Fit Trainer, and Boxing Ring for Little Mac. Some of those stages being revealed long before the Newcomers that possibly represent them were announced. Paper Mario might just not be one of the reveals that will come out before the game is released. He'd probably be a secret character. It doesn't make him obvious because there are a few stages that are in that probably won't include a rep whatsoever like Nintendogs or the Balloon Fight stage. I think Paper Mario fans should be happy enough with what they got though. As previously Paper Mario has only been in Trophies or Stickers in Melee and Brawl. This being the first ever Paper Mario stage. It's a neat homage that I hope gives at least one location from every Paper Mario game. Including Paper Mario 64 and Super Paper Mario. Just a shame that it will only have two tracks because there's plenty of Paper Mario music that would be wonderful for Smash. What a coincidence though that this stage comes out on the day I cover Paper Mario.

 

[GalacticPetey]

I don't want to sound like a crazy conspiracy theorist, but we have seen very little of Peach in this game. Sakurai also mentioned that her moves may be subject to change.

Probably doesn't mean anything for our little mushroom friend but I just felt like I'd point it out.

 

[DragonFreak]

Apologies for bringing this up late. I was going to mention this, but I was distracted by, uh, current discussions and such...anyways,

And while he does have Psyenergy or Djinn for more then just his sword. We already have a new character that still uses a sword but has more to them then that in Robin. I'm not saying Issac would be some sort of Robin clone, but he kinda provides the same exact type of thing that Robin's fighting style provides with the combination of sword and magic usage. So as of Robin's reveal, Issac feels less unique of an inclusion as he could be regardless of how different Issac's magic is from Robin's.

When reading this I realized something. The secondary reason why I wanted Isaac was because he was a sword and magic user. But with Robin being a thing now, eve that is not unique anymore. Well I guess he have Djinn, but they basically use magic too. And if the developers wanted to only make Isaac use his element, there would not be much variety. It doesn't help that Venus is more or less the most boring of the elements.

I hoped that Isaac would be one of those characters that would be promoted from assist trophy to playable, but with Robin, it doesn't seem likely anymore. Maybe for Smash 5.