What makes a Mario game a Mario game?

D

Dr Luigi Tm

Cheep Cheep
(sorry if my english is not perfet)

Hello everyone!

I would like to know... What is a Mario game? :???:
Why some games on the Wiki (http://www.mariowiki.com/Games) are considered Mario games, like Tennis on GameBoy, where Mario only makes a cameo ?
And why some others do not count? Like SuperScope 6, even if Mario is in the game too...

For exemple, TMK (http://www.themushroomkingdom.net/games/) does not consider Pinball or Tennis Mario games, but Mario Wiki does...

TMK classes SMW2: Yoshi's Island as a main Mario game (Starring role) but Mario Wiki says that it does not count.

I would like to know what are the criterias to classes a game officialy a Mario game or not (only a cameo appearance).

I'm asking this because there is many contradictions between some Mario websites and I'm makin a Mario collection. I need the most official list of Mario games to know if my collection is complete. Do I need Tennis on gameboy? Do I need Pinball? Tetris DS? Punch Out!!?

And who said that SMW2: Yoshi's Island is not a main Mario game at the same time of being the first of a new sub-serie? The same goes for Super Mario Land and his sequel(s).

Thank you!
 
I don't think Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island is a main Mario game because it has pretty drastically different gameplay from the series at the time it was conceived, plus it stars Yoshi. The game was even originally intended to be called just "Yoshi's Island", but game developers slapped "Super Mario World 2" there in order to attract sales. So it's strictly a Yoshi game.
 
Yeah, Yoshi's Island isn't part of the specific Super Mario subseries (for the reasons Baby Luigi provided), but it's still part of the overall Mario series, as are the other Yoshi, Donkey Kong and Wario games - bascially, everything that spun off from the original Donkey Kong arcade game. The Super Mario Wiki also considers crossover games to be within our scope, such as Mario & Sonic or the SSB series. "Crossovers" are games where there's A LOT of Mario content, whereas games that only have some Mario content (usually a character or two) but are mostly non-Mario (such as Punch Out!!) are not, and don't receive full coverage. It's all explained on our coverage policy page (MarioWiki:Coverage#So_what_does_the_Mario_Wiki_cover.3F). It's tricky when it comes to random things like Golf or Pinball (Pinball (game)), where the games are pretty generic but Mario's on the cover art and is purportedly the playable character or whatever; the wiki generally errs on the side of caution and includes these games as part of the series.
 
But the statut of SMW2:YI is debatable. The is also a part of the Super Mario Advance series with SMB2, SMB3 and SMW. Even Miyamoto himself confirms that it is part of the main series in a GameInformer interview:

-Here in the States, Yoshi’s Island was referred to as Super Mario World 2. Despite the title, many gamers don’t consider it part of the core series. Do you consider it part of the classic canon of Mario platformers or is it a spin-off in your mind since the player controls Yoshi?

-When we first made Yoshi's Island, we considered it part of the Mario series. After that, the Yoshi series continued on its own. As developers, do we consider it to be part of the core Mario series? The answer is yes.
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I think that this game should be in the main Super Mario series page at the same time of being the first game of the Yoshi's series.

The fact that this game plays ''differently'' is arguable. Super Mario Sunshine is also very different because of the constant use of the FLUDD.

I'm aslo wondering why Super Mario Land and Super Mario Land 2 are not on the Main Series page? They are on portable system but New Super Mario Bros. too... Miyamoto did not directed or produced the game, but he also does not have anything to do with the NSMB series.

Also, it is possible to see the NSMB series as not being part of the main series but as an all new sub series...

Also, Tennis (Game Boy) is on the games page ( http://www.mariowiki.com/Games ) but the game himself does not have his own page. Like if it it was only a Cameo. But Mario is also present in Qix (GB) but this game is not mentionned...
 
Dr Luigi Tm said:
But the statut of SMW2:YI is debatable. The is also a part of the Super Mario Advance series with SMB2, SMB3 and SMW. Even Miyamoto himself confirms that it is part of the main series in a GameInformer interview:

-Here in the States, Yoshi’s Island was referred to as Super Mario World 2. Despite the title, many gamers don’t consider it part of the core series. Do you consider it part of the classic canon of Mario platformers or is it a spin-off in your mind since the player controls Yoshi?

-When we first made Yoshi's Island, we considered it part of the Mario series. After that, the Yoshi series continued on its own. As developers, do we consider it to be part of the core Mario series? The answer is yes.
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I think that this game should be in the main Super Mario series page at the same time of being the first game of the Yoshi's series.
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If the developers confirmed it, then it's official: Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island belongs on the main Mario series page.
 
We had a proposal about this last year, actually. (MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive_31#Coming_up_with_a_more_consistent_standard_for_the_Super_Mario_series) (And some forum debates.)

Arguments against calling YI part of the SM series in a nutshell:

1. It's got the Yoshi's Isalnd egg-as-"O" title logo thing, which had been established by the games "Yoshi" and "Yoshi's Cookie", which were released before YI.
2. It wasn't in the "Super Mario History 1985-2010" booklet that came with "Super Mario All-Stars" for the Wii (nor were the SML games).
3. It's way different from the rest of the SM series (set in the past, unique story, control Yoshi while Mario's a baby, different gameplay what with the eggs and Toady threat and whatnot - it's way more of a blacksheep than SMS, which still has Mario as the playable character questing to save Peach from Bowser using gameplay that, FLUDD aside, is still SM through-and-through; now, SMB2 loses the kidnap plot but still has Mario, is set in the present and introduced many recurring elements to the SM series, whereas YI established stuff for "Yoshi" series).
4. It's not just about the series page: it's about the overall organization of the wiki, and leaving YI as part of the "Yoshi" series is better for organizing the templates, categories and all the articles and their History sections. Putting it somewhere on the series page would be a good idea, but not as one of the main entries (like in a spin-offs section; SML could go there too); it probably should be in the main list on the more general "Mario (series)" page, however.
5. The decision made about where to put the game should be based on all the facts, not just one interview, one booklet, one gameplay mechanic, etc. Because it concerns organization, we have room to make use of all the information to come up with the best way to present said info, rather than having no choice as we would if this was a content matter (like how we had no choice but to change everything to go with the contemporary "the Koopalings are not Bowser's kids" point revealed by that same interview).

As for SML, in addition to the development stuff, like YI, it's got a different plot, different gameplay elements and a different setting, none of which became established in the SM series; SML2 was also very unlike the traditional SM games, and SML3 was the start of a whole new series - like YI to the SM series, only SML3 was explicitly linked to the first two by its plot, making the break a lot less clean.

And regarding the NSMB games and the notion of sub-series within the overall SM series, giving how messy and interconnected the SM series is (all the random SMB remakes, the two SMG games (sub-series or no?), the 3D platformer-vs-sidescroller-vs-3D sidescroller debate), it's easier just to keep them all in one continuous series rather than opening that can of worms. Simply thinking of them as one core series is also more like what Nintendo itself does (as evidenced by the "Super Mario History Booklet", by the above Miyamoto quote and even by how they've been going about blurring the lines between the different types of SM games in recent years), and it's far better for organizing Histories (all the main stuff stays together up near the top instead of getting spread out amongst the spinoffs), templates and categories around the wiki. Plus, the SM "series" is already technically a sub-series of the overall "Mario" series, and putting another whole layer of sub-sub-series on top of that is getting a bit too elaborate.

Dr Luigi Tm said:
Also, Tennis (Game Boy) is on the games page ( http://www.mariowiki.com/Games ) but the game himself does not have his own page. Like if it it was only a Cameo. But Mario is also present in Qix (GB) but this game is not mentionned...
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Those are oversights. There's not much interest in gathering information and writing articles about obscure/minor games that are only superficially "Mario" titles, so some fall by the wayside. Ideally, that wouldn't be the case, of course: the more complete and consistent the wiki is, the better.
 
I still believe that while it's different n all, at least Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island should get some sort of blurb or something, since it is officially part of the Mario series.
 
Well, you have some good points Walkazo...

(Yoshi's Island)'s way different from the rest of the SM series (set in the past, unique story, control Yoshi while Mario's a baby, different gameplay what with the eggs and Toady threat and whatnot - it's way more of a blacksheep than SMS, which still has Mario as the playable character questing to save Peach from Bowser using gameplay that, FLUDD aside, is still SM through-and-through; now, SMB2 loses the kidnap plot but still has Mario, is set in the present and introduced many recurring elements to the SM series, whereas YI established stuff for "Yoshi" series).
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Super Mario Sunshine, it plays different than any other 3D Mario games because of the FLUDD. It does not takes place in the Mushroom Kingdom.... I'm not saying to not include SMS on this page, I just want to proove that this is debatable.

I don't think Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island is more different than SMS or Super Mario Bros. 2 (USA) for exemple... Each games has their particularities. It is normal. In SMB2, which is considered part of the main series, is also really different. there is 4 differents playable characters, the story is completely different (Bowser is not present and we can play as the princess), you cannot kill ennemies by jumping on them and it does not take place in the Mushroom Kingdom.

Also, I don't think the fact that the game is set in ''the present'' or not as an influence on categorizing the game as a Super Mario game or not. It's like if I say : "Batman: Begins is not part of the main Batman movies because it is set in the past" "Monsters University is not part of the Monsters Inc franchise because it is set in the past'' ...

Yoshi's Island introduced many elements to the series such as the Ground Pound, Kamek, Baby Mario/Luigi/Bowser, the flutter jump (seen in NSMBWii and NSMBU), the modern Star Theme remix (also seen in SM64).


The decision made about where to put the game should be based on all the facts, not just one interview, one booklet, one gameplay mechanic, etc.
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And is there any interviews or facts saying that SMW2:YI or SML are not part of the Mario franchise? If you are talking about the SMAS:25th booklet, we can also assume that because one game is not mentionned in the chronicles of Super Smash Bros. Brawl, it should not be in the Main Series article (Like the Game & Watch port of Super Mario Bros.)

And it is part of the Super Mario Advance series! With SMB2, SMB3 and SMW!

If too many people disagree to include this game on this page, Yoshi's Island should at least be mentionned somewhere on the Main Super Mario Series page.
 
Dr Luigi Tm said:
What makes a Mario game a Mario game?
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It is a game that contains Mario, usually cast in a starring role. Just like all characters who appear in said games are considered Mario characters.
 
It is a game that contains Mario, usually cast in a starring role. Just like all characters who appear in said games are considered Mario characters.
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Then why Game & Watch Collection 1 and 2 (On Nintendo DS) are written in the Games List of the Mario Wiki? Mario is not even in the game... Should Tennis (Game Boy) be considered a Mario game if Mario is not playable but is on the game's cover? Should Tetris be considered a Mario game just because there are some Mario sprites (along with Metroid, Zelda, Ice Climbers, Stack up...) ?
 
If you haven't read MarioWiki:Coverage yet, you should.

G&WC1 has Donkey Kong (and Greenhouse) as part of the compilation, so we cover it. G&WC2 is not a Mario game in any capacity so it doesn't get full coverage, hence the lack of a separate article for it; as for why we have the list entry and info on it at all, maybe it's just because folks didn't want to ignore it completely given that we cover all the other compilations, however I'd agree that even the weird partial coverage it's getting is probably too much. How we handle the G&W stuff in general should be reevaluated, really, but it'd take a proposal to lessen any of the coverage and change the organization.

Things like the GB Tennis, GB Baseball, and Pinball are in a grey zone: they're only marginally Mario games at best, but seeing as Mario's face was used front and center as a way to market them, that elevates them from the usual cameos like in Tetris (although Tetris DS has a high amount of Mariop content as well as his image on the cover, so it's more like a crossover than a cameo, hence it gets coverage). Plus, even if the game's are just playing lip service to the Mario brand, they could still lead curious readers to want to find out more ("is that really Mario?" "is there more to this story?" etc.), and so, having articles ready and waiting for them is a good idea. Having almost overly thorough coverage beats having apparent gaps in our knowledge base, at any rate.
 
I see... Well, I read the Mario Wiki Coverage page, yes. And I mostly agree on what it said. But the community should know that there is more than a way to see some specific games and the way they are classified. Some games, like SMW2:YI may be considered a main Mario game by a person, and not by another... The New Super Mario Bros. series can be seen as not part of the ''Super Mario Series'', the Super Mario Land series can be considered part of the main series, Tetris DS can be considered a crossover or just a game in which Mario makes a cameo...

But i aknwoledge the fact that this is impossible to satisfy everybody.
 
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