F4 Worst RPG Area

Anton

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There is some desire to rework or remove F4, as discussed in our 3rd meeting. Please use this topic to further discuss this in preparation for a future meeting.

[9:52:13 PM] <@Anton{Politoed}> F3 Worst 3D Level (Corona Mountain (SMS), The Toxic Waterfall/Lily Pad Ride (SMS), Pachinko Game (SMS), Stone Cyclone Galaxy (SMG2), Wing Mario Over the Rainbow/Over the Rainbows (SM64), Sling Pod Galaxy (SMG), Rolling Gizmo Galaxy (SMG), Boss Blitz Galaxy (SMG2), Gold Leaf Galaxy (SMG), Bubble Breeze Galaxy (SMG), World 1-1 (SM3DL),
[9:52:13 PM] <@Anton{Politoed}> Broken Blue Bully Belt (SM3DW), Fuzzy Time Mine (SM3DW), Champion's Road (SM3DW), Grandmaster Galaxy (SMG2), Luncheon Kingdom (SMO), Dark Side (SMO), Darker Side (SMO))
[9:52:20 PM] <@Lakituthequick> c-3 does something with lakitu's raining spinies and also few platforms so you need their clouds
[9:52:22 PM] <@Lakituthequick> 16) Gold Leaf Galaxy (SMG) - 25 - 2.04%
[9:52:22 PM] <@Lakituthequick> 17) Boss Blitz Galaxy (SMG2) - 24 - 1.96%
[9:52:22 PM] <@Lakituthequick> 18) Broken Blue Bully Belt (SM3DW) - 19 - 1.55%
[9:52:22 PM] <@Lakituthequick> 19) O. Rainbow Ride (SM64) - 3 - 0.24%
[9:52:22 PM] <@Lakituthequick> 19) O. Tick Tock Clock (SM64) - 3 - 0.24%
[9:52:38 PM] <@turb> i'd just leave it
[9:52:39 PM] <+Rose> Keep the same
[9:52:43 PM] <Hooded_Pitohui> Question
[9:52:50 PM] <Hooded_Pitohui> Do LM3 floors count for this award
[9:52:58 PM] <+Rose> I did have that thought
[9:53:00 PM] <Honoka_Chaosaka> ...huh! i think they might
[9:53:04 PM] <Honoka_Chaosaka> now the question is
[9:53:07 PM] <Honoka_Chaosaka> were any of them really bad
[9:53:09 PM] <@Lakituthequick> have we ever considered luigi's mansion at all
[9:53:13 PM] <Hooded_Pitohui> If so, we may want to look into B2F
[9:53:16 PM] <@turb> "The worst level found in a 3D game. This includes nominees from the main Mario games, as well as the Donkey Kong, Wario, and Yoshi spin-off series."
[9:53:21 PM] <@Lakituthequick> for <whatever> 3D level
[9:53:24 PM] <Hooded_Pitohui> Because that one has a mechanic I've generally seen trashed
[9:53:31 PM] <@turb> you would need to slightly broaden the description but yeah b2f could probably count
[9:53:51 PM] <@Gabumon> I feel like this might be an apples to oranges situation
[9:53:56 PM] <@Lakituthequick> nope, luigi games don't count, 'ts in the definition guys
[9:53:59 PM] <@Gabumon> but idk
[9:54:12 PM] <@Lakituthequick> (might want to add that if needed)
[9:54:26 PM] <@turb> is there even a 3d yoshi gam
[9:54:28 PM] <@turb> e
[9:54:29 PM] <+Smasher> im not sure yet
[9:54:33 PM] <+Smasher> no i dont think so
[9:54:42 PM] <@Lakituthequick> lm is an entirely different sort of level yeah
[9:54:49 PM] <+Smasher> theres wario world and dk64 but i cant think of a 3d yoshi
[9:54:49 PM] <@turb> yeah
[9:54:53 PM] <Honoka_Chaosaka> in fairness
[9:54:59 PM] <Honoka_Chaosaka> we allow for wario and dk64
[9:55:03 PM] <Honoka_Chaosaka> and those play quite a bit differently
[9:55:16 PM] <@turb> wario world and dk64 are closer to main mario than lm is
[9:55:18 PM] <+Rose> I'm somewhat shocked there isn't DK64 in that poll
[9:55:18 PM] <@turb> in my opinion
[9:55:23 PM] <+Smasher> agreed with turb
[9:55:24 PM] <@Gabumon> they're still platformers
[9:55:37 PM] <+Smasher> and wario world and dk64 dont even have nominees anyway
[9:55:46 PM] <@Lakituthequick> platformer is quite the keyword
[9:55:57 PM] <+Smasher> personally, i feel like im leaning toward leaving this one as is
[9:56:03 PM] <Hooded_Pitohui> I mean, I can certainly see the case for not including it
[9:56:11 PM] <+Rose> But you can jump in Luigi's Mansion 3 :thonk:
[9:56:21 PM] <+Smasher> lm feels it might be too different to compare in this case
[9:56:33 PM] <@Gabumon> should probably put platformer into the definition
[9:56:41 PM] <@Anton{Politoed}> we do have an rpg award next
[9:56:48 PM] <@Anton{Politoed}> would it be easier to fit lm into that
[9:56:52 PM] <@turb> nah not at all
[9:56:57 PM] <@Gabumon> is lm3 an rpg
[9:57:04 PM] <@Lakituthequick> lm isn't exactly rpg is is
[9:57:06 PM] <@turb> it's definitely much farther removed from rpgs than it is from even the main series
[9:57:06 PM] <@Lakituthequick> *is it
[9:57:10 PM] <@turb> i think
[9:57:12 PM] <@Anton{Politoed}> no but if we're redefining then it's open
[9:57:13 PM] <@turb> if people want to add b2f
[9:57:28 PM] <@Gabumon> well
[9:57:32 PM] <@Lakituthequick> i think the gap is too big for redefining that
[9:57:32 PM] <Honoka_Chaosaka> lm is very removed from an rpg
[9:57:34 PM] <@turb> without redefinitions we would be best off trying to add whatever the floor mechanic is to worst game mechanic
[9:57:35 PM] <+Rose> "Worst RPG (and Luigi's Mansion 3) Area"
[9:57:37 PM] <Honoka_Chaosaka> oh!
[9:57:39 PM] <Honoka_Chaosaka> yeah
[9:57:40 PM] <@Anton{Politoed}> but if it's closer to 3d then we could focus on that yeah
[9:57:41 PM] <Honoka_Chaosaka> that would probably work better
[9:57:42 PM] <@Gabumon> mario rpgs are pretty much dead, so I'm up for a rebranding
[9:57:49 PM] <@Anton{Politoed}> that too
[9:57:52 PM] <Honoka_Chaosaka> pitohui: is it a really bad /mechanic/
[9:57:55 PM] <@turb> yeah I'm fine with a rebranding
[9:57:58 PM] <Honoka_Chaosaka> one that we can just include in that award
[9:58:17 PM] <Hooded_Pitohui> Oh, I could see it qualifying for mechanic
[9:58:46 PM] <Hooded_Pitohui> It's basically floating on a tube you have to control with the Poltergust and it's very finnicky - think lily pads from Sunshine but you have to use it for a boss fight too
[9:58:47 PM] <+Smasher> i'd be more down for changing the rpg area award to a more general one for spinoffs than i would be for adding lm3 to this i think
[9:58:53 PM] <@Lakituthequick> rebranding or getting rid of f4 i wouldn't mind
[9:59:15 PM] <Honoka_Chaosaka> i think it sounds like that's something we could work into either mechanic or a reworked f4
[9:59:17 PM] <Honoka_Chaosaka> as the case may be
[9:59:27 PM] <Honoka_Chaosaka> i also would be okay for outright cutting f4 depending on stagnation
 
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Reko Yabusame

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I think reworking it to a general spinoff area could work if we can come up with a bunch of new nominees, which might be difficult - all that really comes to mind that doesn't fall in the 2D/3D level nominee pool is Luigi's Mansion... although we could also do the sports games, couldn't we? Call out the really annoying golf courses or tennis courts.

So I say if we can get some new good nominees we rework, but if not just scrap and replace.
 

Hooded Pitohui

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It might be possible to come up with enough nominees, but, I feel that it depends on a large extent to how broad we choose to make this Award. "Worst Spin-Off Area" could include anything from Mario Golf courses to tennis courts to Mario Kart tracks to Mario Party boards to the traditional RPG areas to Fortune Street boards to Luigi's Mansion rooms to the areas from Mario Pinball land. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, though, I suppose. It just doesn't sit well with me to think about asking people to compare settings from the RPG games to baseball stadiums and party boards, when the way you interact with those settings are so fundamentally different.

Having given it more thought, I feel like we would most likely be best were we to scrap and replace this one, if we're going to do anything with it. That said, there's some merit in Perch's idea, but I think we would have to restrict its scope. A "Worst Sports Game Area" could potentially work, though we'd have to find some way to exclude Mario Kart from it, since we already have an Award for that. There's still differences in how, say, a Strikers game plays compared to the Baseball games, but, keeping it within the sports games would make it possible to compare all the stadiums and courts and courses on the same general set of merits - what are its gimmicks, its aesthetics, and is it fun to play the game on that course. Between the Strikers, Baseball, Tennis, Golf, and with the three miscellaneous games (Sports Mix, Sports Superstars, and Hoops-3-on-3) counted as their own little series, we'd need an average of three per series, which doesn't seem like an impossible task.
 

Anton

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To better take steps towards resolving this, here's clarification towards our multiple paths we can take:

1) Keep the award as-is as Worst RPG Area and just evaluate the nominees as usual, and then somehow add Luigi's Mansion representation to F10 Worst Game Mechanic

2) Redefine and potentially rename the award to fit in Luigi's Mansion series areas

3) Scrap the award as a whole and replace it with
-a worst LM area/level award
-a worst sports area award

8:18:04 PM] <@Anton{Politoed}> moving on, the F4 rework
[8:18:04 PM] <@Anton{Politoed}> https://www.marioboards.com/threads/42298/
[8:18:28 PM] <@Anton{Politoed}> as of right now
[8:18:28 PM] <@Anton{Politoed}> F4 - Worst RPG Area - The worst map or level found in a role-playing game. This includes nominees from the Mario series, as well as any other relevant spin-off.
[8:18:33 PM] <Honoka_Chaosaka> i like pitohui's idea
[8:18:42 PM] <Honoka_Chaosaka> where we replace rpg area outright with sports area
[8:18:46 PM] <Honoka_Chaosaka> and see how that does
[8:19:03 PM] <turb2> i'm here for the most part btw but i'm getting my nuts smashed in by work instead of just oversleeping like the last few times
[8:19:04 PM] <@Anton{Politoed}> it's possible to exclude mario kart stages as we already do that for the sports award
[8:19:12 PM] <Honoka_Chaosaka> yeah
[8:19:18 PM] <turb2> hopefully i can actually attend a meeting in full next week
[8:19:21 PM] <turb2> also yeah
[8:19:40 PM] <@Lakituthequick> Yeah
[8:20:02 PM] <turb2> that said
[8:20:05 PM] <@Lakituthequick> Trick is either fitting "non Mario Kart" in the title or just tossing out those courses at tally time
[8:20:12 PM] <@Anton{Politoed}> a worst sports game award would get rid of rpg representation in the fail awards
[8:20:15 PM] <@Anton{Politoed}> are we ok with that
[8:20:21 PM] <@Lakituthequick> hm
[8:20:33 PM] <turb2> i feel like the sports thing would have even less relevancy to people at large
[8:20:38 PM] <turb2> like i get it, rpgs are basically dead, but
[8:20:41 PM] <@Lakituthequick> is relevancy an issue
[8:20:49 PM] <+Smasher> personally im ok with dropping the rpg award at this point
[8:20:51 PM] <@Anton{Politoed}> we want awards people care about voting for yeah
[8:20:53 PM] <turb2> does anyone form incredibly strong opinions on the sports areas to warrant forming a whole award over it
[8:21:03 PM] <+Smasher> but i dont have strong feeling about the sports award either
[8:21:20 PM] <@Anton{Politoed}> we can get a better picture if we had nominee ideas in front of us
[8:21:23 PM] <turb2> I've seen much more heated debate over the rpg areas even now, when sports games have been getting much more frequent and active releases
[8:21:27 PM] <@Lakituthequick> looking at things this way an rpg award does feel stronger than generic sports
[8:21:34 PM] <Zange> i wouldnt be too hyped about a sports award in fail imo
[8:21:41 PM] <+Smasher> if there's another idea that might interest more people at large id rather go for that over sports
[8:21:57 PM] <@Anton{Politoed}> keep in mind that we came into this rework as a way to fit in luigi's mansion areas
[8:22:00 PM] <@Anton{Politoed}> not to nuke rpgs
[8:22:04 PM] <turb2> I'm not so much attached to the concept of keeping the rpg award, more just putting it out there that I'm not convinced sports is the answer
[8:22:05 PM] <turb2> yeah
[8:22:32 PM] <@Lakituthequick> ironically, implementing a sports award completely misses the point of the lm thing
[8:22:59 PM] <Honoka_Chaosaka> i had actually thought we came in with the idea that rpg was stagnating due to rpgs being dead
[8:23:02 PM] <Pitohui> Yeah, it became a discussion about a different point entirely, I suppose
[8:23:08 PM] <Honoka_Chaosaka> so that's on me
[8:23:34 PM] <Pitohui> But that's also what I thought, part of it being looking for a way to replace RPG because of stagnation
[8:23:38 PM] <@Anton{Politoed}> a rebrand was also brought up
[8:23:42 PM] <@Anton{Politoed}> it's not out of the question
[8:23:46 PM] <@Lakituthequick> last one, colour splash, is only four years old
[8:23:53 PM] <@Lakituthequick> it's also already four years old
[8:23:54 PM] <@Anton{Politoed}> I'm just saying that we came into this as a way to fit in luigi's mansion
[8:24:00 PM] <@Anton{Politoed}> so we don't lose sight
[8:24:20 PM] <@Anton{Politoed}> if we feel that a sports award is a better idea than redefining rpg area to fit in lm then that's something
[8:24:28 PM] <@Anton{Politoed}> we just need to know what we're talking about
[8:25:02 PM] <@Anton{Politoed}> there's also
[8:25:04 PM] <@Anton{Politoed}> " [9:57:34 PM] <@turb> without redefinitions we would be best off trying to add whatever the floor mechanic is to worst game mechanic"
[8:25:08 PM] <Pitohui> The difficult thing is that Luigi's Mansion is so much of its own beast. I'd /like/ to find a way to fit it in, but it's hard to compare its areas to others in a meaninful way
[8:25:10 PM] <Honoka_Chaosaka> i'm on the side that a complete overhaul/replacement would work better than just stretching the definition to add one more game and one or two more nominees
[8:25:18 PM] <Honoka_Chaosaka> for rpg area in general
[8:25:23 PM] <@Anton{Politoed}> which is a way to just NOT figure out a way to fit luigi's mansion into the current F4
[8:25:30 PM] <@Anton{Politoed}> while still representing it
[8:25:38 PM] <Pitohui> Which is why I am leaning towards Turb's idea of taking that idea and putting it in game mechanics
[8:25:57 PM] <Honoka_Chaosaka> though if people want to keep the current f4 (after putting the LM thing into game mechanics) i can roll with that without issue
[8:26:05 PM] <@Anton{Politoed}> we could also just like
[8:26:14 PM] <@Anton{Politoed}> make a worst lm fuckhole level award
[8:26:24 PM] <@Anton{Politoed}> and delete rpg entirely until it becomes relevant again
[8:26:37 PM] <@Anton{Politoed}> and ALSO fit the floor mechanic into the other award
[8:26:39 PM] <Pitohui> If there's enough workable areas, I suppose - the Haunted Staircase in Haunted Towers comes to mind
[8:27:11 PM] <turb2> balcony (lm1), staircase (lm2), b2f (lm3)
[8:27:17 PM] <@Anton{Politoed}> ok so what I'll do is clarify what options we have in front of us, present them in the thread later, and work towards one we feel is best
[8:27:20 PM] <Honoka_Chaosaka> which balcony
[8:27:22 PM] <turb2> that's literally all i can think of off the top of my head but i'm sure there's more
[8:27:23 PM] <@Lakituthequick> also of note is the possibility of adding LM3's hotel to F14 Worst Setting, tyhus representing it there
[8:27:29 PM] <turb2> the one with boolossus on it
[8:27:34 PM] <Honoka_Chaosaka> yeah but the hotel is generally considered good
[8:27:42 PM] <Honoka_Chaosaka> this is just one level/mechanic
[8:27:45 PM] <@Lakituthequick> ah, then don't do that
[8:28:01 PM] <@Lakituthequick> i was just scrolling through
[8:29:57 PM] <@Lakituthequick> is it still worth going over f4 just in case
[8:30:01 PM] <@Anton{Politoed}> with that, we can't exactly work on F4 without potentially just wasting time
 

Hooded Pitohui

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As I said in the logs, I think I'm most heavily leaning towards Turboo's idea, or number one in the above post. Looking through the relevant categories, the only three locations that stand out to me are the Boilerworks, the Eerie Staircase, and maybe the 2F Balcony and the Cellar. Four nominees does not an award make, and the issue people take with the Boilerworks could easily fit into worst game mechanic, I'd say. If other folks don't have a problem with another year of Worst RPG Area, I think it can stay.

A worst sports area still has potential, particularly if we draw from the games with gimmicky courses, and there's plenty...
With one or two from each game, by my count, we could have an Award.

But, to keep to the matter at hand, my support is behind option one for this award.[/URL]
 
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