M8 Favorite Art Style

Anton

kero?
Chat Administrator
Core 'Shroom Staff
Awards Committee
Favorite Art Style (Retro style sprites, Yoshi's Island style, Donkey Kong Country style, Main series 3D style, Paper Mario style, Mario & Luigi style, Wario Land: Shake It! style, Super Mario RPG style, Super Mario Strikers style, WarioWare style, 2D Promotional Artwork style, Super Mario-Kun style, Handcrafted Yoshi style)

The formatting of the logs below is kinda blegh, but you can use the timestamps to locate the discussion in here
<Anton{Politoed}>
9:34:03 PM
M8 Favorite Art Style (Retro style sprites, Yoshi's Island style, Donkey Kong Country style, Main series 3D style, Paper Mario style, Mario & Luigi style, Yoshi's Story style, Yoshi's Woolly World style, Wario Land: Shake It! style, Super Mario RPG style, Super Mario Strikers style, WarioWare style, 2D Promotional Artwork style, Super Mario-Kun style)
<Honoka_Chaosaka>
9:34:04 PM
which pair, gamefreak
<_2257>
9:34:07 PM
also i wasnt proposing pack e derm, i was asking if you were
<smasher>
9:34:10 PM
isn't he a spirit in ultimate, that would help
<Pitohui>
9:34:22 PM
Pak E Derm is in Ultimate
<Lakituthequick>
9:34:26 PM
13) Super Mario-Kun style — 26 — 1.60%
14) Yoshi's Story style — 19 — 1.17%
15) O. Super Mario 64 style — 5 — 0.31%
16) O. Luigi's Mansion style — 2 — 0.12%
<turb>
9:34:27 PM
pak e derm is in the background of some smash stage too i think
<smasher>
nice
<turb>
9:34:29 PM
the yoshis story one
<smasher>
9:34:35 PM
anyway m8
<turb>
9:34:36 PM
also, i know you have notes for M8
<Gamefreak75>
9:34:40 PM
the real and fake ones, perch
<Pitohui>
9:34:47 PM
Crafted World should probably be added if Woolly World is on there
<turb>
9:34:49 PM
so i'm assuming those are gonna get brought up on the table
<Anton{Politoed}>
9:34:50 PM
there may be only 1 vote for it, but I would like to see a split of 2D Promotional Artwork style
9:34:58 PM
into Retro and Modern
<Honoka_Chaosaka>
9:35:15 PM
i'd be fine with doing that and makinbg no other change
<smasher>
9:35:23 PM
i could be down for adding crafted world
<Anton{Politoed}>
9:35:39 PM
the award currently has 14 nominees
<turb>
9:35:42 PM
i like the split idea
<BBQ_Turtle>
9:35:44 PM
I was also going to mention Crafted World.
<smasher>
9:35:49 PM
and splitting
<turb>
9:35:55 PM
is crafted world significantly different from woolly world
<_2257>
9:36:00 PM
yes
<smasher>
9:36:05 PM
yes
<Pitohui>
9:36:07 PM
Yeah, it goes for a very different collage look
<smasher>
9:36:13 PM
yes
<_2257>
9:36:16 PM
if anything i feel like its closer to yoshis story
<turb>
9:36:17 PM
i was watching the twitter video but i have no idea how woolly world looks anymore
9:36:22 PM
yeah it does remind me of that
<Rose>
9:36:38 PM
Is there a way to incoporate Story into the option for Crafted World as well, they are pretty distinct but Story still has a fair number of votes
<Gamefreak75>
9:37:13 PM
brb
<turb>
9:37:28 PM
we could go over the soft limit and both split the 2d promotional nominee and add crafted world separately
9:37:56 PM
i'd be fine with it at least but idk how anton feels about it since I'm not sure there's gonna be any pruning here like with mario kart course
<Anton{Politoed}>
9:38:31 PM
i'll give priority vote to crafted world as it's a fresh nominee
<Gabumon>
9:38:38 PM
we could also go for a handcraft style and put YS, YWW, and YCW in it
<Anton{Politoed}>
9:38:39 PM
but I'm not opposed to going over
so
9:38:49 PM
that is an option
<Rose>
9:39:13 PM
I'm in support of a general handcraft option
<Anton{Politoed}>
9:39:23 PM
are YS and YCW too different, is the question
9:39:36 PM
I'd say they're within the same general style
<turb>
9:39:56 PM
I personally feel like they're different, but that a lot of that difference comes from the 20-year gap and difference in like
9:40:00 PM
enemy/yoshi design?
<Anton{Politoed}>
the Paper Mario games vary and are still lumped together
<Pitohui>
9:40:22 PM
A handcrafted option I think would be fine for YS and YCW, but I wouldn't put YWW in there too. It feels too distinct from the other two.
<turb>
9:40:24 PM
so i'd be fine lumping them together since it feels more like a generational gap than it does a distinct art style gap like woolly world and crafted world do
<smasher>
9:40:36 PM
i definitely want cw in there somewhere, unsure if it should be separate or with story
<Lakituthequick>
if i quickly look at screenshots from ys it seems like the environments are made of wool and patches but the enemies and yoshi's are not
<turb>
9:40:45 PM
yoshi's story has a lot of papercraft and like, jeans textures in the background and stuff
9:40:51 PM
which is how crafted world looks too
<smasher>
9:40:59 PM
i agree that woolly world is more distinct
<Gabumon>
9:41:09 PM
actually, the ys worlds are made of... a lot of things
<BBQ_Turtle>
9:41:12 PM
I'd say Story and Crafted World are close enough, though I don't think we could throw Woolly World in with them.
<Gabumon>
9:41:16 PM
patches
9:41:18 PM
denim
9:41:21 PM
newspapers
9:41:24 PM
cardboard
9:41:40 PM
ghosts that make strange noises
9:41:49 PM
horrific giant knives
<Lakituthequick>
9:41:53 PM
ah yes, i see some cardboard now
<turb>
9:41:57 PM
brb
<_2257>
9:42:07 PM
the tower level was made of wooden blocks i think
<Gabumon>
9:42:12 PM
inflatable material
<Gamefreak75>
9:42:21 PM
back
<_2257>
9:42:28 PM
the storybook theme sort of fell apart at some points
9:42:39 PM
idk how you can make a book out of wooden blocks and springs
<smasher>
9:42:56 PM
magic
<Gamefreak75>
9:43:12 PM
is this lumping YS + YCW or YS + YWW + YCW into one category?
<smasher>
9:43:14 PM
and the power of the super happy tree
<Gamefreak75>
9:43:20 PM
i'd be fine with either just wondering
<Lakituthequick>
9:43:23 PM
so all three are distinct in their own ways but also all want to be crafted in some way so
<Anton{Politoed}>
9:43:48 PM
adding YCW seems a given
9:43:56 PM
so i'll make the vote this
<Lakituthequick>
9:44:04 PM
looks like the three can form a venn diagram
<smasher>
9:44:05 PM
yep
<_2257>
9:44:27 PM
i dont know if polldaddy supports venn diagrams
<Lakituthequick>
9:44:45 PM
unfortunate
<Anton{Politoed}>
9:45:18 PM
Vote: (1) YS + YCW, (2) YS + YWW + YCW, (3) YWW + YCW (1/2/3/a)
9:45:28 PM
should 1 or 3 be chosen, the remainder will be a separate nominee
<Gabumon>
9:45:31 PM
2 for now
9:45:38 PM
might change after some research
<smasher>
9:45:56 PM
a, part of me wants to make it a nominee by itself
<Pitohui>
1
<_2257>
9:45:57 PM
1
<Raregold>
9:46:04 PM
1
<Honoka_Chaosaka>
9:46:05 PM
abstain
<Rose>
9:46:18 PM
1
<Lakituthequick>
a
<Meta_Knight>
9:46:20 PM
1
<smasher>
9:46:32 PM
5-1-0-3
<BBQ_Turtle>
9:46:34 PM
1
<smasher>
9:46:51 PM
for the record of the three i actually favor 2
<Anton{Politoed}>
9:46:52 PM
as YCW is fresh out, we can absolutely come back to this award later
<Gamefreak75>
9:47:12 PM
2 for now
<Gabumon>
9:47:19 PM
the thing I see is like
9:47:27 PM
the other options are bundles
<smasher>
9:47:32 PM
edos point made me realize cw and story are more distinct than i remembered
<turb>
9:47:41 PM
1
<Gabumon>
9:47:47 PM
so keeping these games split up might divide votes between them and put them at a disadvantage
<smasher>
9:47:54 PM
so a general lump might be better
9:48:03 PM
on that note ill switch to 2
<turb>
9:48:05 PM
I guess thats true actually
9:48:13 PM
a handcraft style would be fine in that regard
<Rose>
9:48:16 PM
Switch to 2
<turb>
9:48:18 PM
i'll switch to 2 from 1
<Lakituthequick>
9:48:22 PM
unvote: a
9:48:23 PM
2
<smasher>
9:49:02 PM
5-6-0-1
9:49:06 PM
i think
<Geeky>
9:49:18 PM
a
<Anton{Politoed}>
9:49:27 PM
2
<Meta_Knight>
9:49:48 PM
switch to 2
<Anton{Politoed}>
9:50:00 PM
we'll work under the assumption that all three will be a bundle
<smasher>
9:50:04 PM
4-8-0-1
<Rose>
Gotta hop off for a little bit
<Anton{Politoed}>
9:50:17 PM
but the nominee name is still pending
<Lakituthequick>
9:50:25 PM
"Handcrafted Yoshi style"?
<Gamefreak75>
9:50:27 PM
sounds good
<Gabumon>
9:50:32 PM
its ok, I think the meeting ends in 10 minutes anyway
<smasher>
9:50:42 PM
ltqs works for now
9:50:59 PM
we still have something else for this award don't we
<Anton{Politoed}>
9:51:59 PM
additionally, should write-ins for any of the 3 come in, they will get merged into this nominee's votes
9:52:33 PM
as for the 2d split
9:53:03 PM
I was thinking of changing "2D Promotional Artwork style" to "Modern 2D Promotional Artwork style" and "Retro 2D Promotional Artwork style"
9:53:12 PM
as I think there's a marked difference between like
9:53:18 PM
https://cdn2us.denofgeek.com/sites/denofgeekus/files/super-mario-bros-japanese-box-art.png and
9:53:19 PM
https://66.media.tumblr.com/0301be24177a35076ee91db109e77c48/tumblr_obecsnGyzL1rrftcdo1_1280.jpg
<Gabumon>
9:53:22 PM
how many votes did promo artwork get
<Anton{Politoed}>
9:53:31 PM
4) 2D Promotional Artwork style — 131 — 8.05%
<Gabumon>
9:54:42 PM
personally I don't see that much of a difference, just a general refinement in style
<Honoka_Chaosaka>
9:54:57 PM
i agree with edo, it doesn't stand out that much to me to be worth splitting
<Lakituthequick>
9:55:07 PM
I feel the former might be handdrawn while the latter most cerainly was created digitally
9:55:34 PM
the difference is otherwise not _too_ big
<turb>
9:56:00 PM
I guess i can see people liking one but not the other though
<Lakituthequick>
9:56:35 PM
definitely, i prefer the newer one personally because it's cleaner
<BBQ_Turtle>
9:57:11 PM
I don't think they're quite different enough really, plus some of the older stuff can be inconsistent so it might be harder to count the whole lot as one style.
<Lakituthequick>
9:57:15 PM
that might also just be these specific artworks
<Anton{Politoed}>
9:57:37 PM
would this be something worth looking into more with more examples rather than deciding now
<Lakituthequick>
9:57:46 PM
probably
<Pitohui>
9:57:50 PM
I'm no art expert, but I feel like the difference in shading clinches it for me. In the modern art, there's no shadows that aren't just blackness. In the other image Anton pulled up and that SMB3 art with them running from Koopalings, you can see shadows under, for example, Mario's stache and Toad's "neck",
<turb>
9:57:51 PM
I think that'd be a good idea yeah
9:58:04 PM
looking into it more
<Lakituthequick>
9:58:18 PM
shading is a big one yeah
<smasher>
9:58:20 PM
i think its best to look into it more
<Anton{Politoed}>
9:58:21 PM
what I'd want from this is there to be a significant break between each one
9:58:24 PM
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<Gabumon>
9:58:34 PM
where do you draw the line
<Anton{Politoed}>
if it's difficult to discern then it's worth keeping it merged
9:58:54 PM
I wouldn't want to nitpick fine details
<Gabumon>
9:58:57 PM
I feel like this is how this style of promo artwork has evolved
9:59:14 PM
where is the cut-off between old stuff and new stuff
9:59:20 PM
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<Anton{Politoed}>
9:59:30 PM
:shrug:, that's what I was thinking too
<Gabumon>
9:59:31 PM
and how clear is it
9:59:40 PM
like
9:59:57 PM
if you take work from the beginning of something and from the end of something
<turb>
9:59:59 PM
was there even a lot of 2d promo artwork in the early 2000s?
<Gabumon>
10:00:07 PM
of course they are going to look different
<turb>
10:00:17 PM
there's this issue where I'm not sure how much of a natural evolution we can actually track
<Uniju>
10:00:20 PM
i feel like all the super mario advance games had 2d promo art
10:00:27 PM
idk how much of it was new and how much was recycled from the early 90s though
<turb>
10:00:31 PM
that sounds right but yeah that
<Anton{Politoed}>
10:00:37 PM
well I guess
<Gabumon>
10:00:42 PM
I dont think you will be able to draw a line
<Anton{Politoed}>
10:00:44 PM
Main series 3D style is a nominee
10:00:48 PM
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<Anton{Politoed}>
10:01:00 PM
those have significant changes from earlier to now
<Lakituthequick>
10:01:02 PM
was there not a period where they didn't use 2d promo art as much
<turb>
10:01:09 PM
that's what i mean ltq
<Raregold>
10:01:13 PM
I'm gonna head out for the night
10:01:19 PM
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<turb>
10:01:23 PM
i remember it being more prominent once there was more club nintendo stuff and web calendars, etc being made
<Anton{Politoed}>
10:01:38 PM
rip club nintendo
<turb>
10:01:40 PM
and a lot of the promotional art in the 2000s was 3d models sans the mario advance games
10:01:41 PM
rip
<smasher>
10:01:47 PM
rip
10:01:50 PM
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<_2257>
10:01:56 PM
its probably pretty arbitrary to call "2d promotional artwork" a style anyway
<Anton{Politoed}>
10:02:17 PM
are you suggesting a rename
<_2257>
10:02:19 PM
those calendars with toad-kun already look nothing like the provided example of modern promotional artwork
10:02:27 PM
or even each other, tbh
10:02:34 PM
no im just commenting
<smasher>
10:02:56 PM
i feel pretty neutral to this atm
<Anton{Politoed}>
10:03:19 PM
those kinopio-kun calendars are why I'm still alive to this day
<_2257>
10:03:26 PM
https://www.mariowiki.com/Gallery:Kinopio-kun#Monthly_calendar_wallpapers
10:03:33 PM
this if anyone odesnt know what im talking about
<Anton{Politoed}>
10:04:00 PM
tbfh fam
10:04:05 PM
i want to vote for specifically that
10:04:13 PM
but they're all different styles
10:05:24 PM
I'll make a thread for this because honestly I want to address kinopio-kun more than I do about deciding 2d
<Uniju>
10:05:26 PM
move to replace favourite art style with favourite kinopio calander
<Anton{Politoed}>
10:05:32 PM
it'll be a "wat do 2d" thread
<Lakituthequick>
10:05:34 PM
kinopino-kun is pretty diverse within itself
<Anton{Politoed}>
10:05:36 PM
good idea
<Lakituthequick>
10:05:58 PM
though the 'main' style seems to be the vector-without-outlines one
<Anton{Politoed}>
10:06:05 PM
I appreciate what kinopio-kun calendars bring to this world
<Pitohui>
10:06:14 PM
Kinopio deserves some attention for Awards purposes, honestly. A thread is a good idea
<turb>
10:06:30 PM
i agree with uniju
<Gabumon>
10:06:47 PM
we could put the calendar as its own nominee and pose the question whether a collection of different art styles can in itself be an art style
<_2257>
10:07:08 PM
that sounds like a collection to ask a philosopher
<turb>
10:07:13 PM
kinopio-kun gets existential
<Gabumon>
10:07:16 PM
yeah
<Lakituthequick>
10:07:19 PM
oboi

Basically we ran out of time, as well as desired a closer look on whether we could split the "2D Promotional Artwork style" nominee into two separate ones focusing on Retro/Modern, or Traditional/Digital. As of this moment I'm just creating the topic, but later on this week I'll gather up examples for us all to ogle and mull over. Anyone else is free to collect them, as well.

I will stress that I don't want to nitpick fine details of these, as other nominees in this award are bundled and not subject to such potential nitpicking. I just want to see if it's something we can feasibly split in a way that is defined and makes sense, and is then supported as a thing to split instead of keeping lumped together.

Additionally, the Kinopio-kun calendar wallpapers are a unique set of work that is not like anything else Mario games and content have put out, but each one also varies in style within itself. I would like to see if there is a way we can accept that or recognize these wallpapers in some form because the artwork is gorgeous, and as a set I think is pretty defined.
 

Hibiki Tachibana

Gekisou Gungnir
Forum Moderator
Chat Operator
Core 'Shroom Staff
Awards Committee
Poll Committee
Re: M8 Favorite Art Style - 2D Art

my opinion is that the 2d promotional artwork is the same style that has just shifted over time with the natural variance of 30 years of art, and should not be split

however the Kinopio-kun art is beautiful and i would love to give it a nominee. honestly, despite the internal variance in style, i'd be inclined to just put down "Kinopio-kun Calendar Artwork" as a single nominee, and let people vote that for any of the art styles in the calendars
 

Anton

kero?
Chat Administrator
Core 'Shroom Staff
Awards Committee
Any other thoughts on Kinopio-kun or 2D styles?
 

Hooded Pitohui

The Bird With Batrachotoxin
Core 'Shroom Staff
Awards Committee
Edo said:
we could put the calendar as its own nominee and pose the question whether a collection of different art styles can in itself be an art style
I'm inclined to answer yes to this question, within certain reasonable limits. I think that, in this case, the Kinopio-kun art is clearly intended as a collection which makes use of a variety of visual styles. Making use of a variety of styles to portray Kinopio-kun and other Mario characters is its purpose and is a common thread underlying the pieces. I don't know if this analogy makes the most sense, but I'd compare it to calling "multimedia" art a genre unto itself. Multimedia art is defined by smaller components. It's not a perfect one-to-one, but I see these calendars in a similar way, so I'd be alright with having a "Kinopio-kun Calendar Artwork" or similarly-worded nominee, too.



On the 2D promotional artwork, I was initially in support of splitting them because it seemed to me that there was a noticeable difference in the promotional artwork of Super Mario World and games before it and the recent revival of promotional artwork (which I believe might have started in earnest around the time of Super Mario 3D Land, or at least that's when I associate with seeing it return). I wasn't really certain if there was an "objective" way to communicate that, though, or one that would be a way of unambiguously communicating the differences between the two. I felt like the older artworks were, for lack of a better term, more rounded. They had more depth and shading to them than the newer artwork.

Long story short, though, I don't think those differences, whether or not they're something which appears to be different or not, matters in the end because there's not really any clear divide, temporal or otherwise, that would make it worth splitting them.

To give the clearest examples I could find, have some artwork of Toad:

Toad Waving
Toad Waving Shaded

Toad Skips
Toad Skips Shaded

Toad and Mario

The first two pairs of images demonstrate well that difference in shading and depth I was talking about. At the same time, the second pair of images there does a really good job of convincing me those are irrelevant differences, since both of those pieces of Toad skipping come from the same source and, as far as I can tell, from about the same time period. That eliminates any clear temporal divide between the art. As a further nail in the coffin, while I could only get the date those images of Toad skipping were uploaded to the Wiki, I can link directly to the source of the Mario and Toad image, which conveniently has a date for us. Since that piece is heavily shaded but comes from 2015, I think it's safe to say that these pieces weren't restricted to promotional art before Super Mario World or before any game, for that matter. You'll see the same thing with the 2D promotional art for other characters, as well.

That all taken together, I don't think I would support splitting the nominee, at this point. While I would say that there are two visually distinct varieties of the 2D promotional art, I don't think any clear and unambiguous divide exists which justifies splitting them. It seems like Nintendo employs both varieties, sometimes simultaneously, for this kind of promotional art without making much of a distinction between the two.
 

Armadimon

Cuss at an Armadillo
Chat Administrator
Core 'Shroom Staff
Awards Committee
Retired Wiki Staff
I still hold the same opinion I did during the meeting. I think it's impractical to split the promotional artwork, and I think the calendar could be added as its own style (thinking of something like The Amazing World of Gumball, where the wild style inconsistencies come together to form a style by themselves).
 
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