Author Topic: How Mario Kart 8 fails, and why Mario Kart Wii was good  (Read 785 times)

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Re: How Mario Kart 8 fails, and why Mario Kart Wii was good
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2019, 06:13:04 PM »
I have to disagree on a few things.

Items
I'm not sure how you arrived at the idea that items are bigger in Mario Kart 8 than Mario Kart Wii. You probably should provide some comparison images. Also, Mario Kart 8 still has Green Shell sniping as didn't change much from Mario Kart Wii. I can't compare my success rate between the two games since it's really hard to test such things but you honestly should run some tests to disprove the hypothesis first, as you're really prone to confirmation bias which can make you arrive at the wrong conclusions. Confirmation bias is the main reason people complain about the AI's apparent conspiracies and supposed "perfect" aim but I wasn't convinced. I'm not convinced that triple green shells guarantee a hit especially when there are other factors to control for such as track size, how you stagger your green shell throws, if you're throwing green shells against a curve, and so on.

As for the banana, strategic placement does count for both games but bananas were way too weak in Mario Kart Wii, barely reducing any speed; equivalent would be getting fireballed in Mario Kart 8. If bananas needed to be bigger, they should've been bigger, and they received a much needed buff especially after they sacked the fake item box.

I don't see Red Shells being any more aggressive than Green Shells aside from the immunity from being fired in cannons. If anything, it's more pressure for the player to have good item management. Anyhow, the red shell's line of sight seems the same from Mario Kart Wii; if they pass over their head, they WILL miss. And I've busted Red Shells myself in Mario Kart 8 by driving right in front of obstacles like cars and sharp corners, kinda the same amount of times as in Mario Kart Wii.

I think the Super Horn is a mostly pointless addition to Mario Kart, doing nothing to resolve the Spiny Shell problem since it easily gets lost by lightning bolts and you end up consuming one to prevent a red shell crash. I guess there's a trade-off of taking a Red Shell crash now for a future Spiny Shell that may or may not come, but in most cases, it's better to keep that lead, especially when Red Shells and Spiny Shells do similar amount of damage anyway. I agree here.

I don't have a problem with the item distribution. First place is an extremely advantageous place. It's common for first place to remain first place because the pack in the middle has to contend with both items coming from the front and behind. If you have triple bananas in Mario Kart Wii and are in first, it's pretty much good game, and triple bananas aren't rare either. What's worse are how the triple bananas all trail behind you, so it makes blocking Red Shells and Green Shells pretty mindless. They changed it to rotating bananas, which I believe is a better way of keeping the triple banana usefulness while also making it fair for forcing you to have good placement to protect yourself from Red Shells, especially with 2 or fewer bananas left. And Mario Kart hasn't ever really been *that* skill-based beyond a threshold, so I'd imagine they'd use distance to gauge item power rather than mere placement, which I think is a better system than in the older games, especially preventing sandbagging.

Gameplay
You pretend that Nintendo doesn't believe Mario Kart is skill based, but actually, you're correct. Mario Kart has never been skill-based. It's a party game. Sure, there's a threshold of skill and of course experienced people do better than beginners. But it's not demanding either. It's not a competitive game by any stretch due to the item roulette. To be honest, Mario Kart has never been all that deep in gameplay. I think this issue isn't unique to Mario Kart. Wheelies don't add anything to the gameplay, let's be honest. Mario Kart 8 does have inward drifting too; it works a little different, but it's still an option. Fire-hopping isn't skill based either, unless you think the maligned snaking is as well.

Also, you're really oversimplifying 200cc. Braking is virtually nonexistent in basically every other Mario Kart because Mario Kart is way too slow to ever require brakes on hard turns (unlike other racing games). 200cc isn't mindlessly using brakes, it's trying to get the best racing lines and some of those lines DO require brakes. It makes tracks a lot more interesting to challenge on especially when bananas are strewn. It also requires more thought put into your handling and acceleration stat, which are suddenly more useful when corners are harder to negotiate, especially when Mario Kart, with its low speeds (and the start-up boost in Mario Kart Wii that negates acceleration weaknesses the heavyweights had), had a ridiculous heavyweight advantage in Mario Kart Wii.

While hidden stats are a problem and there are indeed balance issues with stats (with too many comboes that outclass others and acceleration stat being forced into tiers), stats aren't actually really super relevant. That being said, the lack of a speedometer makes it difficult to test many stats, but stats are a thing. Particularly in Battle Mode, I find the Mario + City Tripper + Red Roller a lot more manueverable compared to Metal Mario + Duke + Metal Tires; faster to accelerate, easier to turn. Stat bonuses in Mario Kart Wii ultimately don't matter all that much unless you're playing Time Trials or you really want to shunt off Wario on the Phantom with Mario on the Wild Wing.

About the coin, Mario Kart Super Circuit lacks a coin item.

Additionally, Super Mario Kart penalizes you heavily if you have zero coins, by making you spin out if you collide someone with coins. You can also knock coins off people if you bump into them, so I think coins are marginally more useful in Super Mario Kart.

Anyhow, the lack of a speedometer compounds your issue with coins, as it would've let you more easily tell if you're going faster or not with coins, but you can still test it by having two characters with same stats, but with different coins accelerate on a long straightaway.

I think a lot of opinions you have on Mario Kart 8 is backed by confirmation bias and not really serious opinion but if you ever have time to try to falsify your impressions on how stuff handles, you really should.



You're taking each point on it's own merits, think about how Coins can affect how dangerous Red Shells are. They leave you defenceless and you have no way of stopping a one. Once again, in Mario Kart Wii on the rare occasion you are left defenceless, you can abuse the stupidity of the Red Shells to destroy them on walls.

It's inside drifting in name only, Inside Drifting Bikes in Mario Kart 8 go out then in, completely ruining what made Inside Drifting Bikes so much fun to use in the first place. If you don't enjoy bikes and don't like Mario Kart Wii for that reason then that's fine, bikes are major part of Mario Kart Wii and you're missing out on a big part of the experience by not enjoying them.

How is Mario Kart 8 faster or smoother? The lack of Wheelies completely gets rid of any speed for straights, and the lack of Inside Drift forces you to take turns far less tightly then before. I mentioned why I dislike 200cc in the OP, so I won't repeat it.

[...]

At the end of the day this is all subjective isn't it? When someone has an opinion that is different then your's it does not mean they are wrong or biased, it just means they have different tastes then you, and you don't need to go around presenting your opinion as the only correct one and that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong, because that's not how opinions work.

While it's true that coins often leave you defenseless and can often put you in bad spots at the worst opportunities, Red Shells being able to hit you while you have a coin is hardly a match-defining moment in most cases. You should try overcoming that disadvantage. And always note, Mario Kart is not skill based; on equal skill levels, matches WILL be decided by what items come up. You'll just have to accept that and maybe reexamine if Mario Kart really is for you.

I find the new inside drifting mechanics to be weirdly different, but they still function significantly different enough to have a little different approach when it comes to tackling turns. Sure, I prefer the Mario Kart Wii one, but the Mario Kart Wii one had pretty busted inward drift bikes that contributed to the arguments against bikes in Mario Kart Wii.

Opinions are subjective, sure, but baldly saying they are is not a crutch for unfounded statements or flawed reasoning. If you're going to back up your opinions with questionable claims such as "the only way to win in 200cc is to brake" and unfairly harping on the balance flaws of Mario Kart 8 while overlooking Mario Kart Wii's, it's going to get pushback.



I wholeheartedly disagree with your complaints on the item distribution and gameplay.  And you didn't even touch on Mario Kart 8's single true flaw: its lack of personality.
I'm not sure if you share my opinions, but I can easily point to the voice direction being completely subpar of Mario Kart Wii's which can be argued as a point against "personality". Mario Kart Wii Mario sounds perfect. In Mario Kart 8, he sounds really hoarse and shrill. It's really off. And all voices in that game tend to be really short and quiet. I mean, hit an NPC with a shell in Mario Kart Wii compared to Mario Kart 8. It's a big difference, as Mario Kart Wii relies on the "critical hit" voice clips a lot for AI/NPCs but it works when it comes to player satisfaction.

I should probably elaborate.  Mario Kart hasn't really had that Mario feel to it since 64, but Mario Karts 7 and 8 are the worst in that regard.  It's as if Mario Kart has sprung into its own thing now, which is good in some ways, but it seems to have forgotten its Mario heritage.  Particularly with the crossover DLC of 8.  The tracks are a bit more bland and generic than in previous Mario Karts, too, especially in comparison to SMK.  Mario Kart is still a great series anyway, but SMK had personality and I only wish that modern Mario Kart would take after that.
I'm not sure if your argument really holds any water. It sounds like you just found a reason to dislike newer games compared to older games. You do provide examples, but I highly contest the claim that the tracks are a "bit more bland and generic". Mount Wario has a lot of personality and looks visually spectacular, particularly the background music. It's not "generic"; are there tons of kart racing games with trekking down a mountain to the end? What do you think is considered a nongeneric and nonbland track? If there's one thing Mario Kart 8 should be known for, it's that technology has vastly improved and so we should be seeing more complex, detailed, and visually pleasing tracks, which Mario Kart does deliver.

Have you seen the differences between the two Moo Moo Meadows? Mario Kart Wii had a visually gross and mostly dull orange dirt with bright green grass, being really uninteresting to look at, but they turned it into a more pleasant-looking and realistic environment + nice sunbeams.

How about SNES Rainbow Road? It used to be a simple rainbow-tiled track set in a void, but they transformed it into a lightshow, and they even added background details on the hills that light up. This is the same for Mario Kart 64's Rainbow Road, they also turned it into a lightshow and have neat city lights on the bottom. Did you see Mario Kart 8's Rainbow Road? There's a Spaceship in the form of a Blooper! They also turned Rainbow Road into an artificial-mechanical-looking space station. Like it or not, but you can't say they didn't try to be creative and put personality in that track.

What makes Mario Circuit from Mario Kart Double Dash better than the Mario Circuit in Mario Kart 8? The Mario Circuits were actually really cookie-cutter, and the Mario Circuit from Mario Kart Wii even had the chain chomp from Mario Kart Double Dash. The Mario Circuit in Mario Kart 8 has even images from 3D Hot Rally, which contests your claim that Mario "forgot" his heritage.

Yoshi Falls would be an example of a bland, generic track when it has barely any Yoshi motifs, barely any Mario elements beyond the sponsors and the Yoshi egg, lame waterfall paths as the only "gimmick", hardly any challenging turns, extremely wide roads, extremely dull visuals, and nonexistent music. Mario Kart Wii decided to return it. Why? Any track from Mario Kart 8 had far more effort poured into it than Yoshi Falls. Older games should be pegged for having more "generic" tracks, because graphical limitations prevented details being added to the tracks. Don't most tracks from Mario Kart 64 barring maybe Royal Raceway (for the neat Peach's Castle) fulfill that criteria for being more "generic"? Heck, even Diddy Kong Racing had far less generic tracks than Mario Kart 64.



Anyway I'll just close it with this because afaik Mario Kart 8 doesn't let me do this and that's a MAJOR point against Mario Kart 8.

« Last Edit: June 01, 2019, 07:08:32 PM by Princess Mario »

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Re: How Mario Kart 8 fails, and why Mario Kart Wii was good
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2019, 01:07:49 PM »
Personally at the very least, I think Mario Kart Wii is better than the Wii U version of Mario Kart 8. The Battle mode in that game was disappointing. (Mario Kart Wii's battle mode was sort of disappointing with the forced teams, but it wasn't too bad when playing online.) Mario Kart Wii should have had an option for elimination Balloon Battles. Funny enough, the Wii U version of 8 actually had it, but it was removed in the deluxe port for some strange reason. Also, I was never really a fan of the coins returning in 7 and 8. I wish there was an option to turn off the coins in the multiplayer options. Speaking of that, I wish there was an option to decide which items could appear in a race. I still liked Mario Kart 8 on Wii U, but the Switch version of Mario Kart 8 is so much better.

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Re: How Mario Kart 8 fails, and why Mario Kart Wii was good
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2019, 02:10:41 PM »
mario kart wii's battle mode was dreadful because they put in spiny shells
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Re: How Mario Kart 8 fails, and why Mario Kart Wii was good
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2019, 02:18:44 PM »
While Mario Kart 8 Deluxe does have a better Battle Mode, it really isn't any better than the original Wii U Mario Kart 8 when you're talking about racing; there are absolutely no track differences between the two games. Sure, it's one person's opinion, but since I've spent a lot more time racing than doing battles in MK8, MK8D was not a tempting offer (it's also an insult to the people who bought the MK8 DLC).
« Last Edit: June 02, 2019, 02:20:22 PM by MnSG »

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Re: How Mario Kart 8 fails, and why Mario Kart Wii was good
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2019, 02:24:44 PM »
(it's also an insult to the people who bought the MK8 DLC).

i never got how making exclusive content not exclusive anymore would be an "insult" to people, honestly. more people enjoying the video game is a great thing. you've got the advantage of playing the game earlier....mario kart 8 is a pretty old game and definitive editions like that should include all past dlcs regardless.
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Re: How Mario Kart 8 fails, and why Mario Kart Wii was good
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2019, 02:34:53 PM »
i never got how making exclusive content not exclusive anymore would be an "insult" to people, honestly. more people enjoying the video game is a great thing. you've got the advantage of playing the game earlier....mario kart 8 is a pretty old game and definitive editions like that should include all past dlcs regardless.

It is worth nothing though, that in Mario Kart 8, you can use all the DLC vehicle parts right off the bat. That's not the case in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, and it also altered the starting vehicle parts.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2019, 02:36:35 PM by MnSG »

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Re: How Mario Kart 8 fails, and why Mario Kart Wii was good
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2019, 02:40:10 PM »
it's more the fault of the random vehicle unlock bs really. they should let us use the coins to unlock parts we want to use first. at least mario kart wii does have a better vehicle unlock system but i still would prefer just getting the stuff i want first.

8 deluxe had atrocious rebalancing i agree with that
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Re: How Mario Kart 8 fails, and why Mario Kart Wii was good
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2019, 02:52:13 PM »
Speaking of vehicle parts, it's good knowing that Mario Kart 8 allows all characters to use any vehicle body; the size of the vehicle body gets adjusted to be compatible with the chosen character. After Mario Kart DS, Mario Kart Wii was one heck of a downgrade with its kart and bike restrictions.

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Re: How Mario Kart 8 fails, and why Mario Kart Wii was good
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2019, 04:58:13 PM »
4. the graphics look awful even for a wii title.

I actually like the graphics. I know they aren't as good as, say, Galaxy's, but I like the visual style. Probably better than MK8's, as it just looks like any other HD game to me.

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Re: How Mario Kart 8 fails, and why Mario Kart Wii was good
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2019, 08:09:41 PM »
The blue shell was definitely way too common in Wii, that's for sure. I just had more fun playing Battle matches online with Wii than I did with 8. And I do think they could have done a little more with the racing on the Deluxe port, but at the same time there may or may not be a future Mario Kart game on Switch so I think they should probably focus on that instead.

It is weird that that graphics in Wii looked a bit worse in places than Double Dash, even though the GameCube and Wii have a similar graphical output. Wii even reused some stuff from Double Dash.

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Re: How Mario Kart 8 fails, and why Mario Kart Wii was good
« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2019, 08:46:37 PM »
https://i.imgur.com/o0Z24in

This is the embodiment of Mario Kart Wii for me.

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Re: How Mario Kart 8 fails, and why Mario Kart Wii was good
« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2019, 09:18:46 PM »
The Thundercloud alone made MKW the worst
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Re: How Mario Kart 8 fails, and why Mario Kart Wii was good
« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2019, 11:26:20 PM »
4. the graphics look awful even for a wii title.

I actually like the graphics. I know they aren't as good as, say, Galaxy's, but I like the visual style. Probably better than MK8's, as it just looks like any other HD game to me.

i don't understand how 200 faced polygons with 256x256 textures lends it a "visual style" that is "better" than an hd game. mkw looks like a low-budget kart racer.
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Re: How Mario Kart 8 fails, and why Mario Kart Wii was good
« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2019, 11:39:47 PM »
you know what was stupid about mkwii
the ranking system online

"win like 200 races to get 900 vr points lose 10 and you'll be back at 5000 vr :yoshi: :yoshi: :yoshi:"

(granted i'm exaggerating but still)

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Re: How Mario Kart 8 fails, and why Mario Kart Wii was good
« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2019, 11:40:43 PM »
Personally at the very least, I think Mario Kart Wii is better than the Wii U version of Mario Kart 8. The Battle mode in that game was disappointing. (Mario Kart Wii's battle mode was sort of disappointing with the forced teams, but it wasn't too bad when playing online.) Mario Kart Wii should have had an option for elimination Balloon Battles. Funny enough, the Wii U version of 8 actually had it, but it was removed in the deluxe port for some strange reason. Also, I was never really a fan of the coins returning in 7 and 8. I wish there was an option to turn off the coins in the multiplayer options. Speaking of that, I wish there was an option to decide which items could appear in a race. I still liked Mario Kart 8 on Wii U, but the Switch version of Mario Kart 8 is so much better.
It was probably removed because the Wii U's Battle Mode just exemplified the flaws of elimination style, or at least that's probably how they saw it, and they returned it to points-style because people wanted it, and it's probably more fun and less punishing and doesn't promote camping either. Options should've been there, nevertheless, but you know, it's Nintendo, they always seem to keep stepping backward a little after going forward. I think the coins in Mario Kart 7 were tolerable and even better for things like Time Trials as it creates trade-offs between more coins or faster routes (as well as faster routes or items), as we've seen in DK Jungle from Mario Kart 7. It's the coin item that's a pain in the ass. It's even more insufferable when the *bleep*ing golden disc was even "X items only" AND those dang golden sewer caps weren't in the modes that would've made them useful: COIN RUNNERS. Oh, and I agree there should be some sort of item switch. Mario Kart 8 Battle Mode HAD some sort of X items only, but Switch seemed to restrict it to frantic/skilled/normal rather than have x items only + those three types. BUT AGAIN, it is Nintendo....

mario kart wii's battle mode was dreadful because they put in spiny shells
That is definitely the worst thing about that Battle Mode. You can even be spiny shelled if you're on the losing team, which makes no sense. It's a good thing that flying abomination never really resurfaced in a Battle Mode again, as if Nintendo realized their mistake. Good for them.

While Mario Kart 8 Deluxe does have a better Battle Mode, it really isn't any better than the original Wii U Mario Kart 8 when you're talking about racing; there are absolutely no track differences between the two games. Sure, it's one person's opinion, but since I've spent a lot more time racing than doing battles in MK8, MK8D was not a tempting offer (it's also an insult to the people who bought the MK8 DLC).
I think it's expecting much to have track differences. You also say the DLC being part of the base game (which was already 3-4 years old at release) is a bad and unjust thing, but charging $60 for Mario Kart Deluxe WITHOUT the DLC would actually be an Activision move. Mario Kart 8 Deluxe might be overpriced for lack of track content, since that repackaged game is just a few new characters and battle tracks, but it's a good starter game and helped the Switch have somewhat of a boost; Nintendo didn't want another Wii U where struggling launch sales contributed to a poor install base and contributed to the console's demise.

I actually like the graphics. I know they aren't as good as, say, Galaxy's, but I like the visual style. Probably better than MK8's, as it just looks like any other HD game to me.
Given that the Wii is practically an overclocked Gamecube, it's not surprising to say that Mario Kart Wii has the same character models from Mario Kart: Double Dash. What is surprising, however, is that you deem Mario Kart Wii's graphics better than Mario Kart 8 (which if we go by everything including poly count, texture resolution, texture technology-Mario Kart Wii has no bumpmaping OR specular maps), materials, lighting-Mario Kart Wii doesn't even use actual shadows and all "shadows" are either altered meshes in the kart's case or textures baked onto the track) track detail, system power, is false) and looks like "any other HD game".

This isn't a matter of opinion. You're just wrong.



Differences are like grassland and rainforest.

The blue shell was definitely way too common in Wii, that's for sure. I just had more fun playing Battle matches online with Wii than I did with 8. And I do think they could have done a little more with the racing on the Deluxe port, but at the same time there may or may not be a future Mario Kart game on Switch so I think they should probably focus on that instead.

It is weird that that graphics in Wii looked a bit worse in places than Double Dash, even though the GameCube and Wii have a similar graphical output. Wii even reused some stuff from Double Dash.
I haven't noticed the differences of spawning rate between the Spiny Shells between Double Dash, Mario Kart 7, and Mario Kart, or the spawning differences are too negligible to notice. I believe that's just confirmation bias.

It probably boils down to presentation rather than technology. Just shows you presentation still matters more than pure graphical capability.

The Thundercloud alone made MKW the worst
It's a bad item, but it's meant to function with several other racers. Its real problem is that it spawns in races with far fewer players and ends up being a heavy liability. They probably should either increase the benefits or lessen the penalty.

you know what was stupid about mkwii
the ranking system online

"win like 200 races to get 900 vr points lose 10 and you'll be back at 5000 vr :yoshi: :yoshi: :yoshi:"

(granted i'm exaggerating but still)
I've heard similar complaints in Mario Kart 8 iirc (or maybe that was Smash Bros. Ultimate), but honestly, you probably shouldn't care about VR the same way people shouldn't care about GSP. It makes the game far more enjoyable.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2019, 11:45:58 PM by Princess Mario »

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Re: How Mario Kart 8 fails, and why Mario Kart Wii was good
« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2019, 11:44:56 PM »
Look at the Monty Mole trail in the Mario Kart Wii picture
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Re: How Mario Kart 8 fails, and why Mario Kart Wii was good
« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2019, 11:47:08 PM »
I know, it's really bad. Now,check out this low-quality screenie from Mario Kart 8.


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Re: How Mario Kart 8 fails, and why Mario Kart Wii was good
« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2019, 01:28:15 AM »
Given that the Wii is practically an overclocked Gamecube, it's not surprising to say that Mario Kart Wii has the same character models from Mario Kart: Double Dash. What is surprising, however, is that you deem Mario Kart Wii's graphics better than Mario Kart 8 (which if we go by everything including poly count, texture resolution, texture technology-Mario Kart Wii has no bumpmaping OR specular maps), materials, lighting-Mario Kart Wii doesn't even use actual shadows and all "shadows" are either altered meshes in the kart's case or textures baked onto the track) track detail, system power, is false) and looks like "any other HD game".

This isn't a matter of opinion. You're just wrong.

I'm not saying Mario Kart 8's graphics are bad, far from it. Mario Kart 8/Deluxe looks amazing, and I absolutely love how the retro tracks look (especially the N64 tracks). I can say I like both games pretty much equally, but there's something about the graphical style MKWii uses that appeals to me. Simplicity? Lighting? Nostalgia? idk

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Re: How Mario Kart 8 fails, and why Mario Kart Wii was good
« Reply #38 on: June 05, 2019, 03:20:53 PM »
I mean, people have relentless nostalgia boners for SM64 graphics, so why not MKW graphics?
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Re: How Mario Kart 8 fails, and why Mario Kart Wii was good
« Reply #39 on: June 05, 2019, 03:36:11 PM »
well i know how bad n64 graphics in general very are but because their graphics are so bad that's why i ironically like them

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