Author Topic: Suggestions for next year  (Read 1543 times)

Anton

  • Froppy
  • #mwchat Admin
  • Power Star
  • *****
  • Hypnotoad
  • kero?
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestions for next year
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2018, 11:45:12 PM »
I think that overall activity has been kind of low this year, and while I might be guilty to some of it, I have noticed things such as tournaments having fewer sign-ups, etc. It reflects in that there were 20 blank spots in presentations that needed to be filled up by the backup presenters. I'm not sure what the solution is to that though other than possibly cutting awards or doing something to try to spark interest. I also think that we should cut awards/replace awards that are too boring/are the same every year (like Major Character). My only other specific thought is that C14 and C15 are too similar to each other in my opinion and should be merged, or the distinction between the two needs to be made more clear.

It's not possible to pinpoint one factor that's guilty, but I did notice a trend in people who used to grab 2, 3, 4 presentations now only picking one, or people pairing up more, which may be a result of people thinking they need to create Rembrandts and Van Goghs to be worthwhile, leading them to devote all their time to a single presentation or just give up doing them at all.  Even tonight I'm seeing a good amount of people wish that they would've signed up for some, or forgot, etc., which I'll be super extra sure to remind them of their wish next year when sign-ups roll around again :bowser: .  Cutting awards is definitely an option, but I'd like to address other factors as well first.

Oh, I forgot to finish my other point too.

As for tournaments, I feel like changes in Steam really mucked up prizes, leaving them a difficult thing to keep full and funded, as well as maintain interest in.  Prizes are enough of a motivation for people to play in tournaments, so I hope to address this somehow next year, perhaps by phasing out the token system entirely and just having each tournament hold its own prizes provided by the tournament host, awards staff, and generous donors :wario: .  I've also seen plenty of people express interest in the games available, and say they want to play them, and enjoy having them there, but uhh...just.....not playing them, though.  I don't really know how to fix this other than finally using Grimes as my mole into Elon Musk's SpaceX program to launch a satellite holding a mind control laser that uses advanced GPS technology to make people play my scavenger hunt.



Kazooie

  • Red-crested Breegull
  • Core 'Shroom Staff
  • Star Spirit
  • ***
  • Gabumon
  • "That's nice."
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestions for next year
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2018, 11:47:41 PM »
I do think some awards need to be tailored for less predictable results. It's my only first time here, but I noticed there are similar results that get discussed more than a few times that simply reiterate the past presentation (I'm looking at you, Sticker Star, which has been discussed, like, three times). It might be fine over one ceremony, but I can imagine that over several years, it gets tiresome. And the point of these polls is perhaps a surprise, so it's no fun if you already know what the results are... three times.

The committee actually already takes these things into account and attempts to make adjustments. The problem is that there is a limit to how much you can realistically do in certain cases.

Like, Sticker Star is just a really *bleep*ty game that rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. That's just a thing that's in the public mind, and people have a right to hold that opinion. If there is a venue that asks Mario fans for the most unpleasant Mario game they have played, Sticker Star is inevitably going to have a strong presence in the results. What can we realistically do about this? Have a "Worst Game Except Sticker Star" award? Drop the question entirely? I don't think either of these are meaningful courses of actions. Personally, I think observing the public opinion on certain Mario topics is one of the goals of the awards. "Sticker Star sucks" is a valid, if predictable reflection of that opinion. We shouldn't move to warp that reflection just because it's an enduring one.

"We should stop Sticker Star from winning this" should not be our goal. It will stop winning on its own once it loses presence in the public eye, and we will observe it as we have done before. Same goes for characters like Pink Gold Peach, and also our enduring winners, except replace all the negative adjectives with positive ones.

"To do just the opposite is also a form of imitation."
 --G. C. Lichtenberg

Nabber

  • Mushroom Attendant
  • *******
  • nabber
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestions for next year
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2018, 01:43:14 AM »
good job running it this year, i feel like the quality of the presentations and the handling of everything was really well done

i don't have strong feelings about this but perhaps hardest boss can be retired? i just feel like having two boss awards is kind of redundant, and being hard isn't inherently a good thing either

Marie

  • The best squid girl
  • Dry Bowser
  • ******
  • Luigi 64DD
  • If you find any good Marie fanart, send it here!
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestions for next year
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2018, 02:07:19 PM »
Oh, I forgot to finish my other point too.

As for tournaments, I feel like changes in Steam really mucked up prizes, leaving them a difficult thing to keep full and funded, as well as maintain interest in.  Prizes are enough of a motivation for people to play in tournaments, so I hope to address this somehow next year, perhaps by phasing out the token system entirely and just having each tournament hold its own prizes provided by the tournament host, awards staff, and generous donors :wario: .  I've also seen plenty of people express interest in the games available, and say they want to play them, and enjoy having them there, but uhh...just.....not playing them, though.  I don't really know how to fix this other than finally using Grimes as my mole into Elon Musk's SpaceX program to launch a satellite holding a mind control laser that uses advanced GPS technology to make people play my scavenger hunt.
I don't know how much this applies to others, but I mainly play in tournaments for their own sake rather than for the prizes. I personally think the prizes should focus on gift cards more than specific games if possible (assuming the token system stays). A lot of the specific game prizes don't interest me. If prizes are a bigger factor in playing tournaments for other people, not being interested in the prizes offered might be a deterrent to playing in them. Gift cards are more universally appealing.

I think M10 should be changed to Favorite Music Track. Having an award for Favorite Vocal Song seems unnecessary to me since vocal songs haven't been a big part of the Mario franchise. This would be different from M1 since that is for entire games while M10 would be for specific tracks.   

Credit to several artists for my avatars, see this post. Also click the above image for nice music!
Userpage | Ask | Art

Roserade

  • President of the Literature Club
  • Core 'Shroom Staff
  • King Bowser
  • ***
  • "Write your way into his heart..."
    • View Profile
    • Rose Garden Forums
Re: Suggestions for next year
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2018, 02:13:42 PM »
In regards to cutting awards due to presentation numbers, I don't know if this is entirely necessary, nor looking for a specific alternative. I think it all comes down to personal conflicts in the community. I definitely would've taken two more if I had the time, but I was without any electronics for a week so that wasn't feasible for me. But there are also a number of people that said they would try their hand at a presentation again next year, so it's not too much of a concern to me.

At the same time, I was not one of four that needed to cover twenty presentations total, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt and an outsider's perspective.

Kazooie

  • Red-crested Breegull
  • Core 'Shroom Staff
  • Star Spirit
  • ***
  • Gabumon
  • "That's nice."
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestions for next year
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2018, 02:15:37 PM »
To be honest, I feel like the prizes could be done away with entirely. It's just an unnecessary extra workload AND money sink, for something that should be enjoyed for its own sake, not material compensation.

Like, I'd imagine people would still participate in tournaments for the chance to compete and interact with the community, even if there wasn't a prize associated with it.

"To do just the opposite is also a form of imitation."
 --G. C. Lichtenberg

LeftyGreenMario

  • Do not show the embarrassing CPU scores during the battle.
  • Donkey Kong
  • *******
  • R.I.P. Walkazo December 16, 1991 - March 27, 2016
    • View Profile
    • RationalWiki
Re: Suggestions for next year
« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2018, 02:30:27 PM »
My suggestion would not to simply omit Sticker Star but to rework some of the rewards. Worst game element and worst game, for instance, generally tend to overlap. So we should minimize those results. We can keep probably the most basic components like Worst Game, Worst Character, but we can create more presentations, perhaps, maybe even gimmick ones like "Worst Mario Party 5 minigame". I'd like to see some weird results like worst episode of the Mario show or the worst Mario Edutainment Game or something, but eh, that might have a low turnout. But I can post extra suggestions for next year. Maybe you'll like some of them.

Anton

  • Froppy
  • #mwchat Admin
  • Power Star
  • *****
  • Hypnotoad
  • kero?
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestions for next year
« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2018, 03:02:43 PM »
I don't know how much this applies to others, but I mainly play in tournaments for their own sake rather than for the prizes. I personally think the prizes should focus on gift cards more than specific games if possible (assuming the token system stays). A lot of the specific game prizes don't interest me. If prizes are a bigger factor in playing tournaments for other people, not being interested in the prizes offered might be a deterrent to playing in them. Gift cards are more universally appealing.

The appeal of specific games is that once upon a time Valve was a good company and Steam would allow you to hold onto gifts in your inventory to later distribute.  With that was coupled generous Summer and Winter sales, allowing plenty of people to stockpile what were otherwise expensive games for 50-90% off, filling out the entire prize list with maybe $200 total among everyone who donated.  With that done away with, gift cards are kinda the only realistic option to go with, along with how they have a more general appeal.  The problem with that is that gift cards generally have a minimum amount of $10, $15, $20 or so, while the Steam games in the past could be literally $0.99-$5, $10-$20 for Game of the Year wildly special big prizes.  I really enjoyed the token and prize system in the past because it gave a little something to even the people who couldn't get 1st place in every tournament and made everyone feel included, but it's just grown too difficult to manage and finance.  To maintain that approach it would imply everyone would get a prize.  There's a lot of people who play tournaments; last year being 68 people having earned enough tokens to select something significant--and that was a slow year.  Getting a $10 gift card to cover everyone would be at least $700, and that's not speaking of larger prizes for more wealthy token earners who would be in the range of the $20 gift card prizes and more.  It's just not sustainable anymore.  Either a wealthy benefactor comes in and gives me $500k to fund this for eternity, or we have to accept that prizes are for limited distribution or done away with entirely.

I agree with what Edo said:
To be honest, I feel like the prizes could be done away with entirely. It's just an unnecessary extra workload AND money sink, for something that should be enjoyed for its own sake, not material compensation.

Like, I'd imagine people would still participate in tournaments for the chance to compete and interact with the community, even if there wasn't a prize associated with it.

I feel like this should be what we work towards next year, but the fact of the matter is that we still have a hefty library of games.  As of the exact moment of me typing this out, that prize list isn't up to date, and I need to prune things that are gone and add new stuff, but I know there's still a lot in there and I don't really know what to do with it.  My first thought is phase it out by devaluing the cost of each prize significantly and allow people to just sweep them up with tokens they earn this year and next year, but I know it's gonna take more thinking than that to come to an appropriate solution.  We have an inflation control system currently implemented that reduces the amount of tokens people carry over each year which might directly work against this concept should it be chosen as the way to address the prize list problem, and I don't know if it's too late to decide whether to keep that this year or not seeing as it's well into August.  At the very least this is going to be a central point of discussion for next year's Awards Committee so if you're invested in the outcome of the decision then be sure to sign up  :bowser: There's also 'Shroom Tokens which are converted into Awards Tokens for our prize list here, and if we do away with our prizes they will also have to renovate their system.  Whether that's difficult or not, it's just a thing to be known.

I am very glad though to hear that people want to play games without needing to be bribed! :wario:  Prizes definitely don't have to be gone away with entirely and banned as a concept, but could perhaps just be used as incentive by the tournament host themselves as a grand prize for 1st place, or a "thanks for playing", or something.



Meta Knight

  • Scourge of Darkness
  • Core 'Shroom Staff
  • Power Star
  • ***
  • Victory is my destiny
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestions for next year
« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2018, 03:13:10 PM »
I'd also be okay with prizes being dropped. If they are, we could probably just drop 'Shroom tokens entirely, or figure out some sort of replacement for them.

Marie

  • The best squid girl
  • Dry Bowser
  • ******
  • Luigi 64DD
  • If you find any good Marie fanart, send it here!
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestions for next year
« Reply #29 on: August 18, 2018, 03:33:34 PM »
The prizes are a nice bonus, but I'd have to agree that they aren't necessary if they cannot be financially sustained. Perhaps some sort of prize system that doesn't involve money could be introduced like special art requests or something, but that could raise the workload to a ridiculous degree.

Another idea is keeping the tokens system but getting rid of prizes by making the tokens give you an Awards Rank, similar to forum post ranks. Just as an example, 1 token could be Awards Newbie, 50 could be Awards Fan and so forth. These ranks would carry over from past years so you could use it to tell how involved the person has been in Awards over the years. The ranks would have to be close enough so you could go up at least one rank every year by participating in a few things. The more events you partake in, the faster you rank up. They could be displayed in a dedicated thread or a spreadsheet. This system doesn't have prizes, but it would give a nice little reward to participating in Awards without financial cost and with minimum workload.   

Credit to several artists for my avatars, see this post. Also click the above image for nice music!
Userpage | Ask | Art

BBQ Turtle

  • Princess L of the Shy Guys
  • Wiki Patroller
  • Luma
  • ***
  • Crazy sponsors lady.
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestions for next year
« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2018, 05:07:04 PM »
I'd like to re-raise my suggestion from last year of potentially adding Favourite Mario Party Board as an award (Sorry if this had already been considered and decided against, but I didn't spot it when I was looking at the meeting logs), as by that time we'll have Super Mario Party as well, which is also bringing new boards with it, so there are more potential candidates.

Also, another small suggestion but I think it might be a good idea to add Sawmill Thrill as an option in Favourite DK Level, because it got 10 write-in votes, which is as many as the lowest-voted option, and more people would be likely to vote for it if it's already presented to them.

And, regarding my thoughts on M10, I think keep that as vocal song, but definitely specify that in the award name, as seeing how well received Jump Up, Super Star! and Break Free: Lead the Way were, I wouldn't be surprised if we saw more in the future, and potentially add a separate award for Favourite Instrumental Track? That might be a bit of a music overload, and I guess it might be hard to pick out options, plus you'd have to consider all of the different versions of a song (i.e. N64 Rainbow Road music, which I imagine would be popular, but different people would prefer different versions of it, some prefer the original, others the Mario Kart 8 version, and I personally like the F-Zero version of it the most), and naming it could be difficult, as I doubt everyone would know the proper names for all of the songs, particularly anything that's used in a game with a World 1-1 level naming system. It's something to consider, at least.

Roserade

  • President of the Literature Club
  • Core 'Shroom Staff
  • King Bowser
  • ***
  • "Write your way into his heart..."
    • View Profile
    • Rose Garden Forums
Re: Suggestions for next year
« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2018, 06:36:03 PM »
I'm in support of Luigi 64DD's Rank idea, it would still give you the satisfaction of receiving tokens for participation without the concern of maintaining rewards.

Anton

  • Froppy
  • #mwchat Admin
  • Power Star
  • *****
  • Hypnotoad
  • kero?
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestions for next year
« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2018, 06:43:34 PM »
Not to burst any bubble but I incredibly doubt a rank will be made, nonetheless one just for general participation.



Marie

  • The best squid girl
  • Dry Bowser
  • ******
  • Luigi 64DD
  • If you find any good Marie fanart, send it here!
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestions for next year
« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2018, 06:49:57 PM »
I don't mean an actual rank that appears on your profile. The Ranks would only be displayed in a dedicated thread or spreadsheet. No changes would have to be made to the forum or anything that way.

Credit to several artists for my avatars, see this post. Also click the above image for nice music!
Userpage | Ask | Art

winstein

  • Shine Sprite
  • ******
  • Justice is not limited, it is a universal quality
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestions for next year
« Reply #34 on: August 19, 2018, 11:03:19 PM »
It's kind of sad that there aren't any Splatoon tournaments except for that one cancelled tourney two years back, but I suppose it's for the best. I am saying this mainly because even in Mario Kart's tournaments not everybody turned up so to fill a room for Splatoon would have been even worse. I guess the Splatoon love on Mario Boards faded in such a way that a tournament is unfeasible. I've enjoyed playing with people I roughly know, because it's an experience I don't normally have. Usually I play with randoms online, so the novelty is really good for me.

Regarding Major Characters, I would like to suggest a Fail award for that one, since there are just too many characters to list out. Among the characters, there are only like four of them: Wario, Rosalina, Bowser Jr. and Mario, and Peach was a recently-removed character. They are also not polled highly so it would be interesting to see which among them are considered least-liked.

Thank you for reading.
(Credit goes to Alex95 for this signature)

Hobbes

  • Wiki Administrator
  • Core 'Shroom Staff
  • Star Spirit
  • ***
  • tucayo
  • Poll Committee Vice-Chairman
    • View Profile
    • The 'Shroom
Re: Suggestions for next year
« Reply #35 on: August 19, 2018, 11:26:55 PM »
I can totally get behind Luigi64DD's idea. It would basically be having an overall scoreboard. It's like an arcade game in which you play just to climb up on a scoreboard. There is no tangible reward other than seeing your name on top, and that's, in my opinion, a huge satisfaction in itself.


Kazooie

  • Red-crested Breegull
  • Core 'Shroom Staff
  • Star Spirit
  • ***
  • Gabumon
  • "That's nice."
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestions for next year
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2018, 09:48:08 AM »
The prizes are a nice bonus, but I'd have to agree that they aren't necessary if they cannot be financially sustained. Perhaps some sort of prize system that doesn't involve money could be introduced like special art requests or something, but that could raise the workload to a ridiculous degree.

Another idea is keeping the tokens system but getting rid of prizes by making the tokens give you an Awards Rank, similar to forum post ranks. Just as an example, 1 token could be Awards Newbie, 50 could be Awards Fan and so forth. These ranks would carry over from past years so you could use it to tell how involved the person has been in Awards over the years. The ranks would have to be close enough so you could go up at least one rank every year by participating in a few things. The more events you partake in, the faster you rank up. They could be displayed in a dedicated thread or a spreadsheet. This system doesn't have prizes, but it would give a nice little reward to participating in Awards without financial cost and with minimum workload.   

I'm personally not a big fan of that idea because it feels like it would exacerbate a problem that already exists and is well-documented. Namely the problem of carry-over points moving focus away from the present and into the past. We've had numerous complications arising from people who would just never spend their tokens and continue sitting on vast sums of them, and in response we would have to crank up the token output every year just to keep them relevant. Imagine how much it would intensify this problem with a system where you can't even get rid of the points you accrue at all.

It would be fine the first year, but then in the following years you'd have one group of people sitting on all the points, and on the other side you have an influx of new faces who can't ever catch up to the ones on the top and will potentially get discouraged because their contributions don't matter numerically. We would have to introduce inflation to combat this, and eventually it would collapse under its own weight, just like the token system almost did.

Additionally, I feel like this might potentially encourage a sense of elitism among the leaders of the board. This is kind of similar to what happened with post counts, where people got uppity because they had a higher number than others. Or occasionally we get someone coming in here who signed up in 2007 or so, and they parade around saying "My join date is earlier than yours, worship me". People use stats like these in this mannner. This is not an environment I want to create for the awards. I don't want to give people a way of saying "I have more points, ergo I am really important to the awards and you are beneath me". Every contribution is appreciated, regardless of its size, grandeur, or numeric quantifyability.

"To do just the opposite is also a form of imitation."
 --G. C. Lichtenberg

Lord Bowser

  • Super High School Level Bowser
  • Core 'Shroom Staff
  • Power Star
  • ***
  • "It's funny because we're all living in a simulation and free will is a lie."
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestions for next year
« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2018, 10:02:52 AM »
perhaps make it so ranks simply cant carry over and instead get wiped the next year, that way everyone then starts off on a clean slate and theres no elitism, unfair advantages, etc



(credit to TPG)

(credit to Mr. Edo)

Anton

  • Froppy
  • #mwchat Admin
  • Power Star
  • *****
  • Hypnotoad
  • kero?
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestions for next year
« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2018, 10:27:22 AM »
There's already a rank for being in the AC, there's already placements for winning tournaments, there's already prestige from making a presentation.  I'm not sure what else you want.  Typically people who do these don't do them so they can have their name in a bold gold font in a spreadsheet, they do it to be involved in a community tradition.  If it's an annual thing all it'd be is redundant.  I just can't see this thing being something that's truly useful or something worth any time upkeeping.  We're not exactly a very large community who is involved in this stuff, so participation's not that easily overlooked.



Roserade

  • President of the Literature Club
  • Core 'Shroom Staff
  • King Bowser
  • ***
  • "Write your way into his heart..."
    • View Profile
    • Rose Garden Forums
Re: Suggestions for next year
« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2018, 11:49:28 AM »
It's not a matter of we want anything more, I know that I'm just interested in coming up with an alternative to prizes that would hold the same satisfaction as raising token count.

Moving past that for a moment, for Biggest Missed Opportunity, I feel that some sort of distinction could benefit the award. As it stands, "Missed Opportunity" is pretty vague and can be hard to specifically define. Points like the Nintendo-Sony partnership are entirely business-based, while ones such as the Ruined Kingdom are entirely content-based. Maybe decide to define the Award as "Worst Business Decision" or "Worst Missed Gameplay Opportunity", based upon which one we want to focus on. Obviously you could phrase those better than that, but it would help clarify exactly what we mean and what options you'll be seeing in that award.