Dream Team really did have wasted potential when it came to the villains.

Q

Qayin

Koopa Troopa
Reviewing the game again, while I really dig the attempt to portray Bowser's army as genuinely threatening the game fell short at showing this menace across the land. Doubly so when counting Antasma and how he doesn't really do much on the island for how much of a terror he supposedly is, especially after the dream castle shows itself. The game could have tried to make more bosses and their contexts more connected to the alliance so that they can present themselves as the threat to the world the game tries to say they are.

The game also dropped the ball at showing Bowser and Antasma having a partnership. Something as small as having Antasma terrorizing some tourists until Bowser comes over, sees it, and compliments his work would be helpful. As it stands now, the betrayal doesn't have the impact it should have.
 
Normally stuff like this would go in the unpopular opinions thread, but I think it’s more unpopular that I think Dream Team is the best Mario & Luigi. It’s better than Superstar Saga and Paper Jam at the very least, as those are the only other ones I’ve played.
 
In a 40 hour game, they spend about half of it sitting in a castle doing nothing.
 
They wasted no time forcing their minions to go through tutorials too! D:
 
Mcmadness said:
In a 40 hour game, they spend about half of it sitting in a castle doing nothing.
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It's a pretty classic villain strat
 
Bloc Québécois said:
Mcmadness said:
In a 40 hour game, they spend about half of it sitting in a castle doing nothing.
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It's a pretty classic villain strat
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Aye, I just wish we saw more of them either leading up to that point or while we were traveling like in PM.
 
I honestly think if they were going to go for Bowser betraying a new villain, it at least should've not come at the time period it did. Antasma was the only non-Bowser antagonist in any Mario RPG between BIS and SSS+BM. So for those of us who enjoy new villains, having Bowser usurp the new villain in a period where new villains barely happen at all, wasn't the right move. He could've been the sole antagonist, in which case it would've been his best portrayal as an antagonist since Paper Mario 64 and wouldn't carry the "faked out with a new villain" disappointment.

But Antasma in general, even past the betrayal, wasn't used to his full potential. He had one awesome boss fight but other than that is only spoken of by NPCs as an evil from the past, but barely does anything in the present. Considering how much he was hyped up from the first glimpse we had of him (which looked like some badass fusion of Cackletta and the Dark Star), he was handled pretty poorly, which is why I think he shouldn't have just... swelled up and exploded at the end. It was like once Bowser came into the picture they didn't care anymore. However thanks to that exact same animation being used for the Koopalings and Kameks in Paper Jam, and for Fawful in the Superstar Saga remake, I feel like if Antasma is already put down in their books as dead that's not very fair. I think he has potential for another appearance.
 
For the M&L series it was the perfect time for it to happen. What Paper Mario does is irrelevant.

And Antasma really doesn't have all that much potential. His design was uninspired, just a lame rehash of Cackletta but purple, and his personality wasn't very entertaining.

Him not being the final boss doesn't change the fact that he is incredibly boring as a badguy and I have no desire to see him come back.
 
I think for Antasma, his accent is the extent of his personality.
 
That was a problem with a lot of characters in DT. They had nothing of note beyond their speech gimmick.
 
Mcmadness said:
That was a problem with a lot of characters in DT. They had nothing of note beyond their speech gimmick.
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The beef brothers were the worst. Felt like the writers (or is it the localizers?) were trying way too hard to make the next Fawful
 
Their subplot also lasted too long. Which goes in line with I said about the game having too many bosses/sections that have really nothing to do with Antasma/Bowser.
 
Glowsquid said:
Mcmadness said:
That was a problem with a lot of characters in DT. They had nothing of note beyond their speech gimmick.
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The beef brothers were the worst. Felt like the writers (or is it the localizers?) were trying way too hard to make the next Fawful
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Are you kidding? The Massif Bros. were the best!

“BEEF! STEAK! HUGE HAMS!!!”
 
Glowsquid said:
The beef brothers were the worst. Felt like the writers (or is it the localizers?) were trying way too hard to make the next Fawful
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Localizers mostly I'd say.
 
Qayin said:
Their subplot also lasted too long. Which goes in line with I said about the game having too many bosses/sections that have really nothing to do with Antasma/Bowser.
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Wasn't their subplot all about just rerouting where you needed to go, making Mario & Luigi's milk run into marathon?
 
Mario and Luigi: Dream Team as a whole had potential to be one of the better Mario and Luigi games, yet it squandered it. Believe it or not, Dream Team is one of those Mario games that would have actually benefitted from not having Bowser in it, and him betraying Antasma is exactly why. Seeing Bowser take the title of main villain from Antasma is just downright insulting. Antasma should have been the final boss, since he was the bat king of nightmares who terrorized the land in the past, but instead, the final boss is against the same guy who has been the main villain in almost every Mario game ever since 1985, which has gotten very stale at times by this point in the franchise. Not having Bowser would have given Antasma more time to shine in the spotlight.

In terms of gameplay, Neo Bowser Castle takes four hours to beat. Even The World That Never Was from Kingdom Hearts 2 isn't even half that length. Also, Bowser overshadows Antasma in terms of representation because the only part of it that feels like an Antasma Castle is the purple vines and only two Antasma enemies. You're also doing the same thing you've done throughout the game that is packed to the brim with pointless filler. Also, you fight Kamek three times, each not feeling that different from the last, except for a broom attack that even a third grader can easily avoid.

There's also the atrocious Giant Bowser fight, wherein the attacks are predictable and easy to dodge as ever, a Spear Guy attack which is unavoidable, and the gyroscope controls that make Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric's controls look responsive by comparison. As mentioned before, we get one of the worst plot twists in the series: it is revealed that Bowser has been the main villain of Dream Team this entire time. We could have had Antasma be the main villain, but nope, it's the same guy who has almost always been the main villain. Before you argue that it would be too predictable, I would like to say that sometimes, it's better to be predictable than to have an anticlimactic ending, because at least predictable endings can still feel tense at times.

Antasma has proven that he would make a spectacular final boss, especially when you may have to deal with nightmare torture devices. How is that not intimidating? What does Bowser give us? Well, he tries to use the Dream Stone to kill Mario and Luigi, but Peach and Starlow are forced to destroy it to prevent him from doing so. Could it be? Peach actually does something useful? Maybe it could make up for her once again being kidnapped. I wish, but it doesn't matter: Bowser inhales the Dream Stone's fragments to absorb its power, thus ruining the only useful thing Peach does in this entire game.

What does Bowser do with this awesome source of power? He decides to play the Flip a Coin game which doesn't belong in a fight like this, cover his head in a way that doesn't look like how one would defend himself in a climactic final battle, summon multicolored versions of his lousy minions, and the best part: eating a bunch of meat during the finale. I know someone's going to say, "but that's how he healed in the last game." I don't care. It still ruins the suspense of the battle. Now I know how those who fought Jasper Batt Jr. feel. The fight is also cheap (though not to the extent of Elder Princess Shroob) with how long it takes to beat his minions, so unless you have the Zee Egg, which requires you to rescue all of the Pi'illo folk who are already annoying to find, you probably won't be able to beat them all before Bowser restores too much health. It doesn't help that they wasted an awesome song on such an insulting final boss.
 
Not having Bowser there wouldn't have suddenly made Antasma better. Like I said years ago, dude is a bland character whose only notable gimmick was that he spoke in Vs.
 
Never finished Dream Team (thought it was boring as hell) but I always thought Antasma had a cool design. Also making him the tutorial fight is very funny to me, especially since it uses his sinister ass battle theme.
 
I am a huge lover of DT and of Antasma, and honestly I have fairly mixed feelings about the whole thing.
I definitely think Antasma was an underused and underdeveloped villain. I also think that the timing is very unfortunate as DT came right after Sticker Star, which did a complete 180 on stories and characters that Mario RPGs had previously been so great for, and DT came before PJ which was the last non-remake M&L game, and the only bad one at least insofar as story/characters goes (of course, PJ had Bowser as the main villain and final boss and had a hinted betrayal plot that never went anywhere). Antasma was the last original main villain until King Olly 7 years later, and DT tossed him aside in favour of Bowser as the main villain and final boss. I love Antasma and feel he has underused potential because he's original, he has ties to the background lore and to Dreambert, he's got a really cool appearance, name, music, and powers. A huge part of me wanted to see Antasma have more importance, representation and development, and for him to be the final boss.

On the other hand, DT does do Bowser some very good character development, as this time Bowser betrays and outsmarts the original villain, this time Bowser is smart, serious and a threat, this time Bowser isn't suffering any fools, this time Bowser is the final boss in his own right, not being brainwashed or possessed or cloned. It's also a clever 180 on player expectations, as DT had earlier been hinting that Antasma would betray Bowser, which would be more usual/expected than the other way around. PM64 had many of these elements, but as far as the M&L series goes, this is a first for the King of the Koopas.

I honestly can't decide how I would have preferred DT to have handled this situation. I feel like the main feasible options I see are

1) Cut Bowser from DT entirely, or reduce his role to that of a minor villain similar to PiT, and make Antasma the main villain and final boss with no betrayal plot twist

2) Shift Bowser's betrayal of Antasma to much earlier in the game, and give Antasma a redemption arc (as it's potentially hinted that Antasma wasn't really that evil but just wanted freedom, having been imprisoned for aeons).

3) Have Bowser betray Antasma, but Antasma manages to overpower him anyway and still be the main threat at the end. This could potentially involve the Dark Stone, which I know was destroyed, but the Dream Stone was restored after being destroyed so at least potentially the Dark Stone could be (idk so much about this option).
 
You know, characters speaking in foreign accents make me wonder if there's like, a Mario version of Romania, or if Antasma literally DID come from Romania.

Maybe he's faking it too, idk, he speaks so cartoonishly exaggeratingly that maybe he just wants to be Dracula
 
Mcmadness said:
Not having Bowser there wouldn't have suddenly made Antasma better. Like I said years ago, dude is a bland character whose only notable gimmick was that he spoke in Vs.
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I wish they did more with Antasma, because they really wasted him, and he had so much potential to be an awesome villain. It's not like Bowser, who, during the 2010s (prior to Super Mario Odyssey at least), not only dragged his own character down, but dragged another character (Princess Peach) down with him for the price of one. Having Bowser kidnap Peach has gotten really stale, and he almost ruined Super Mario Odyssey, one of the greatest Mario games ever created, especially considering he's been the main villain in almost every Mario game ever since 1985. When will another mainline Mario game get a fresh new villain who isn't Bowser for once? Also, I'm glad Peach isn't a damsel in distress in The Super Mario Bros. Movie (2023), and although they kind of went overboard, this version of Peach is the waifu she should have been in the games. Also, the movie is Bowser's first good role (for me, at least) since Super Mario 3D World.
 
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Sorry but I don't see the potential for Antasma like at all? He's just another Mario villain in the gallery of Mario villains. Honestly if I wanted a dream-themed Mario villain, I'd rather go with Wart and expand on him.

And if I wanted a fresh nonBowser villain, Wario would absolutely be my number one pick, he hasn't been a villain in a Mario game for AGES and I think nowadays his "rivalry" with Mario is just a footnote.
 
Ray Trace said:
if there's like, a Mario version of Romania,
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antasma wakes up from the dead with a rejuvenated thirst for evil: this time, he wants to take control of this country and bring it to ruin for his own sick fantasies. however, this proves a difficult feat because the country is a bit too big and his powers were weakened following the events of Dream Team. so he makes a treaty with surrounding world powers Shiveria and the Ot-Toad-man Empire, each chomping at the bit to own Antasma's beautiful land, to split 30% of the country's historical territories with them so he can lower the country's strength and morale. he then casts a curse on the locals, turning them into sheep with an "enlightened" anti-nationalist sentiment to suppress remaining dissent.

Mario and Luigi are dispatched to defeat antasma once more and restore order in the country, because if the totally-not-xenophobic castlevania anime taught us anything, romanians are too incompetent to take care of their internal affairs and need le western aryan blue-eyed savior to do it for them. the land is so fertile that you can collect twice the amount of beans of previous games.
 
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