Author Topic: Smash Bros. Character Merit (Ultimate Edition)  (Read 6079 times)

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Re: Smash Bros. Character Merit (Ultimate Edition)
« Reply #100 on: February 18, 2019, 12:14:46 AM »
I think Sakurai said he didn't actually put it in for the memes and said it was a fairly recognizable character.
In that case Toad should have gotten in instead.

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Re: Smash Bros. Character Merit (Ultimate Edition)
« Reply #101 on: February 18, 2019, 12:29:08 AM »
I imagine the challenge of creating a moveset for a character with such an unorthodox body type was appealing.
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Re: Smash Bros. Character Merit (Ultimate Edition)
« Reply #102 on: February 18, 2019, 01:24:17 PM »
I think Sakurai said he didn't actually put it in for the memes and said it was a fairly recognizable character.

I've been seeing what Sakurai's been saying yeah. But nothing he's said has exactly changed my opinion. One of the things he said was that he didn't just want another hero for more variety but uh... there's many, many, more villainous choices then a Piranha Plant. More recently Sakurai has stated what most suspected why Piranha Plant was chosen for specifically the moveset and having to get a little more creative with the moves. But it's still some of his wording that I disagree with.

"In addition, Piranha Plant is a very well known character." Piranha Plant isn't a character, it's a recognizable obstacle and/or regular enemy.

It's almost just better to view it as the joke/meme/etc. inclusion, because trying to take it as seriously as any other fighter (Even the previous so-called joke/WTF characters in Smash have a reason they'd one-up the plant on merit) just makes it worse merit-wise.

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Re: Smash Bros. Character Merit (Ultimate Edition)
« Reply #103 on: February 18, 2019, 01:58:52 PM »
What about...
Steve.
Y'know, from Minecraft.
He seems to be quite the popular choice for leaks.

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Re: Smash Bros. Character Merit (Ultimate Edition)
« Reply #104 on: February 18, 2019, 02:33:12 PM »
What about...
Steve.
Y'know, from Minecraft.
He seems to be quite the popular choice for leaks.

STEVE

Level of Want

Oh boy, it's that character that I see complained about everywhere who people would swear is the worst inclusion ever because of how much they find Minecraft overrated, it's fanbase annoying, and/or it's a threat to a certain sacred bear & bird duo

...And yet, I'd be perfectly ok with it. Granted I can't say it's a character I particularly WANT in Smash but yes, I would take Steve's inclusion in stride while almost the whole rest of the Smash Bros. corners of the internet goes nuts. Feel free to say how ugly and unfitting Steve's design for Smash is. But we have to keep in mind Minecraft's one of the most successful games ever. There's a reason Microsoft has put the game on everything including it's competitor's consoles where you're perfectly able to change to Master Chief skins for your character through DLC even on your Nintendo Switch. Minecraft has more outreach then any indie game (Though kind of hard to say Minecraft is Indie now, it certainly began as an Indie back when Notch was head of the game but it's in Microsoft's hands now and is selling merchandise and even online subscriptions specifically for the game). And if Steve is capable of bulding blocks on the stage it might make for some interesting fun on Smash Bros. maps. Hell, I'd be interesting in seeing a casual 8-player all Steve match to see what people could do with building blocks without necessarily trying to fight eachother. It's be fun to see something like that. If Steve is indeed coming, bring him on. He's very much an icon of modern gaming right now, I too would like to see Banjo come first but if he's coming to Smash at any point in history. Banjo may have to deal with either just not being relavent known or a package deal with Steve where Steve is for the younger and casual fans and Banjo is for the hardcore. Though I'm not sure about the likelihood of Microsoft getting half of the remaining Fighter Pass characters.

Estimated Chance

I do however feel that his chances are somewhat overstated. Yeah people have said he's inevitable because *insert potential insider/leaker* said this or that. But even for the ones like Verge that have gotten things correct about this game before, the Minecraft stuff has just strangely been the one thing still yet to appear. Now I don't blame Verge himself for possibly being wrong, he has multiple sources and not all of them trustworthy. It's possible that whoever's been telling him that Minecraft content is coming to Smash is not exactly truthful. I think Verge got a really good hand in the base game, he however does seem to be slipping in terms of DLC and/or outside Smash stuff (Such as believing the new zelda was not Link's Awakening related... oof). Microsoft also seems to be very buddy buddy which is definitely odd for current console competitors (I mean Xbox Live services will be offered on the Switch for crying out loud) though we can't be for sure if it will lead to any Smash inclusions for either Steve or even Banjo-Kazooie at this rate. If Microsoft does allow a character in Smash it will almost be certaintly Steve and/or Banjo-Kazooie. Steve on the somewhat more likely scale just because of Minecraft's popularity. But if a 2nd fighter's pass happens ever, I'd actually keep a look out for the bear and bird.

In short, I think Steve's still one to at least keep an eye on as a possibility. But I wouldn't consider it a near certainty like many of the characters Vergeben mentioned during the base game speculation period.

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Re: Smash Bros. Character Merit (Ultimate Edition)
« Reply #105 on: February 18, 2019, 02:58:38 PM »
What's your opinion on a character from Puyo Puyo such as Arle getting in?

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Re: Smash Bros. Character Merit (Ultimate Edition)
« Reply #106 on: February 18, 2019, 03:04:57 PM »
Quote
But I wouldn't consider it a near certainty like many of the characters Vergeben mentioned during the base game speculation period.

VergeBen?

Listen...

Did he say Joker was in?

No.

Is he in?

Yes.

Facts are in. Dude's not right on it here.

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Re: Smash Bros. Character Merit (Ultimate Edition)
« Reply #107 on: February 18, 2019, 03:11:29 PM »
Quote
But I wouldn't consider it a near certainty like many of the characters Vergeben mentioned during the base game speculation period.

VergeBen?

Listen...

Did he say Joker was in?

No.

Is he in?

Yes.

Facts are in. Dude's not right on it here.

That's why I said base game speculation specifically (As in from the month or two before E3 all the way to November 1st). Joker's DLC. I know even in Base game Verge wasn't perfect (He never mentioned K. Rool though he did ask about him at some point) but he had a pretty good track record during the base game of Smash Ultimate otherwise. To say he didn't at one point pretty much get 90% of his claims right during that period is denial.

@SGoW I'll get to Arle sometime soon. Just wait a little longer

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Re: Smash Bros. Character Merit (Ultimate Edition)
« Reply #108 on: February 18, 2019, 03:18:09 PM »
I mean yeah he HAS proven himself in base game.

Looks like we misunderstood each other I guess or it's probably me who was being an idiot as always.

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Re: Smash Bros. Character Merit (Ultimate Edition)
« Reply #109 on: February 18, 2019, 07:41:53 PM »
ARLE NADJA

My Level of Want

Only played a bit of Puyo Puyo. Most I've seen of Arle is renting Puyo Puyo Tetris on the Switch. Arle is yet another Sega owned character. So in some ways it's not exactly a character I'm all for because if it's still even possible to get more characters under Sega's ownership after we already have Sonic, Bayonetta, and Joker. I'd want them to give Sonic another character. Preferably Tails. I'd be all for Sega getting the "Too much Fire Emblem" treatment if we managed to get Tails. But I'd understand why they may want to push Arle instead. Puyo Puyo is pretty popular in Japan. Just not as much worldwide. (They recently released an eSports version back in October of last year. It's however in areas in or near Japan and not in the US or Europe). And it'd actually be a proper puzzle game rep rather then just Dr. Mario which doesn't really bring any puzzle stuff to his gameplay. So it'd definitely hit a good niche and I'd be interested how they implement a puzzle fighter.

Estimated Chance

I feel Arle's among the many Sega characters that just got any remaining hope they had for DLC dashed by Joker's inclusion. And even if there is to be yet another Sega character, it's not a sure thing she'd be next as maybe next time Sega gets another choice they actually do decide to get Sonic another character. Or there's other potential series like Yakuza or even another Atlus or Platinum owned character. Also regarding Puzzle characters, Nintendo does have one of it's own it could promote. That being Lip. However, she was made a Mii costume for the Swordfighters. Mii costume may be good signs for potential characters for the next game, but as for being promoted in the same game their mii costume came first seems a bit doubtful. So I'm not so sure why they'd include a 3rd party puzzle character before Lip

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Re: Smash Bros. Character Merit (Ultimate Edition)
« Reply #110 on: June 12, 2019, 05:02:32 PM »
Wow, Iíll just say. That merit wise, both of the newcomers announced are pretty high up there. One may be particularly higher the other (Though perhaps fans in Japan will disagree with my and many others in the westís takes). But regardless, as someone who is neutral on both of these franchises. These are all well-deserved and definitely bring things back on the upswing after Newcomers have kind of gone a little bit downhill post-K. Roolís release (No offense meant to Isabelle, Incineroar, or Joker. But itíd be hard to say they match K. Roolís hype)

Letís start with the lesser of the two. At least in the eyes of the West anyway, Iím sure if I were born in Japan instead. Maybe the two characterís hype here would be switched.

THE HERO (AKA Luminary/Eight/Erdrick/Solo)

We may have technically known a Dragon Quest character was coming as far back as January of this year. Though the expectation for a while that was going to be Erdrick and Erdrick alone. But what turned out happening is indeed a DQ character was added. But Erdrick isnít even the default, albeit he is kind of in a 2nd best situation considering heís the next different alt.

At first, it looked like Erdrick was getting Smash 4 Chromíd by the newest Dragon Quest protagonist. But instead, they pull out multiple protagonist into one character that might actually multiply the merit then had Erdrick came in alone. Because from this, it feels like more of a representation of Dragon Quest as a whole. And while people can complain that itís yet another anime (Hell, the art for Dragon Quest most notably being done by Akira ďDBZĒ Toriyama himself) swordsmen. The franchise definitely left itís mark on gaming history, even if that history is much more appreciated back in Japan then it does in the West.

It doesnít help that we were kinda spoiled on this nearly a half a year and may have been better served showing us in the direct that had a big segment to the new game months ago especially since the main character was indeed the default for Smash. But perhaps either they didnít have the trailer ready and/or they wanted to make sure E3 would have at least more then one character to show. Which if thatís the case was understandable.

When these heroes drop, I expect it to perhaps be the final nail in the coffin (If the spirit wasnít already that) for Geno as the Mii costume will probably come back. Though hopefully the content is more generous then with Final Fantasy and Cloud. But anyway, I;m sure there were many overjoyed japanese fans made happy with these charactersí inclusions. And while many of us in the west wonít exactly share the same sentiment. Perhaps in time weíll come to find just what Japan sees in these characters that made them the video game equivalent of rock stars over there. I am certain to give them a shot.

BANJO-KAZOOIE

I would say I have no words for this (In a good way), but you know Iím going to be super glowing about this inclusion that I may end up just saying too much.

Iíll say it right now. This may not be just a really awesome inclusion, this might be the best merited inclusion of this gameís speculation period. Maybe even the most merited 3rd party besides perhaps Mega Man and maybe Pac-Man too. And keep in mind, Iíve hardly played much of the Banjo Kazoo games. Most I remember is renting Tooie for a short while and most I remember was Bottlesí death at the start. This isnít coming from a biased, longtime Banjo-Kazooie fan. Even from a neutral perspective I understand what it means to have Banjo back alongside many Nintendo characters for the first time since the N64 era as well as the many hardships that the franchiseís fans have gone through ever since Rare was purchased by Microsoft. Which has been and funnily enough still is supposed to be a competing console maker.

Just really think about this. Had Microsoft never bought Rare, Banjo might of been in Smash as early as Melee or at the very least came in for Brawl. It feels like a long lost son had reunited with his family after 2 2 decades of being apart, because their adopted family has never allowed them to see or even talk with the old family until recently.

Let me just list down the comparisons of why Banjo is one of the biggest 3rd party inclusions (Again not THE biggest. Megaman and Pac-Man I feel still have a huge leg up on that department in some way or another). Despite at itís surface, being what may be an obscure franchise to newer gamers by now.

Snake was our very first 3rd party character which was mind-blowing for Smash on itís own. Yet despite Metal Gear having a history that started out on Nintendo. At the time Snake made it in Smash, Metal Gear felt more closely associated with Sony more then Nintendo. Not that I donít think Snake wasnít fun to have, I was happy among many others when he showed up in the Everyone is Here trailer. But as more and more 3rd parties have shown up. Heís still kind of on the lesser half of the 3rd party characters despite being the one that opened the window for all of them in the first place.

Sonic, while heíll always be very dear to my heart. When he got in Smash, he had already been 3rd party for about 7 years. He was very possible, and he wasnít ever as dormant as Banjo has been. Always love that Sonic was the first 3rd party to get in from legit popular demand. But even as a Sonic fan. There are 3rd parties that outrank him on Merit. Megaman, Pac-Man, and with how centric to Nintendo Banjo had been at one point. I think Banjo is higher then Sonic on merit as well.

Ryuís a little harder to argue since he did help put fighting games on the map and it all started on Nintendo. Though out of the mainline games (As in not counting ports and/or just numbered titles), they havenít released them onto Nintendo systems since Street Fighter II. Hell, Street Fighter got on the Dreamcast before anything on the N64 or Gamecube arrived. Ryuís still very much a worthy addition, but compared to fellow Capcom brethren Mega Man. He just kind of felt like the Nintendo centric 3rd party merit has decreased over the years instead of generally remaining stable like Mega Man has. Maybe thatís a tad hypocritical since Banjo has had appearances not on Nintendo consoles over the years what with the maligned Nuts and Bolts on Xbox 360 and the guest appearance in the first Sonic and Sega All-Stars Racing exclusive to the 360 version. But I donít know, Banjo-Kazooie just seemed to keep the feeling that they were very much Nintendo characters. I guess in a way never getting Three-ie has kind of helped that feeling, like they canít get a proper game or big reappearance without it being on a Nintendo platform.

Cloudís a little easier to argue being that of course Cloud himself at least until FF7 finally found itís way on a Nintendo system via the Switch release was always kind felt like he was with Sony. Though the Final Fantasy series as a whole has more merit for sure then Banjo. That said these two are pretty similar inclusions in some ways. Going back to the family analogy from before, Cloudís like a son that after a nasty divorce between Square and Nintendo, left off and had huge success on his own elsewhere has finally reconciled. And this is also kind of the closest weíll really get to feeling like Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft all banded together to bring some of these characters together. Sony didnít exactly play a part of this at all. Snake, Cloud, Joker, and arguably Ryu are all characters that probably would increase the star power if there was ever another Playstation All-Stars attempt. Yet theyíre here in a Nintendo exclusive fighter. And here we have Microsoft fully playing along and allowing Banjo to appear here. Microsoftís even in the long credits that will be on the title screen and everything! Which is surreal on itís own. They still want to sell more Xbox ones and exclusive games for said systems. They have a new system coming soon that will inevitably try to butt heads with Nintendos in competition over consumers. Yet through what seems to be pure magic and willpower on both sides of the deal, we still managed to get Banjo back on a Nintendo system. And in some ways, Banjo probably has Cloud to at least partly thank for it. Cloud feeling very much like the symbol of a missed opportunity back in the mid-90s for Nintendo. Yet heís found his way to Nintendo. Even if of course his remake still isnít going to be anywhere near Nintendo. At least not yet anyway.

Simon may actually be another case that is arguably higher then Banjo. Where Castlevania is more closer to a Mega Man kind of inclusion where it just like a fiddle amongst many of the classic NES characters. Of course you could also say because Simon isnít always the protagonist, Banjo has more clout to his own franchise. But thatís probably being a bit disingenuous.  Just a bit of a spoiler warning Iím still probably going to have Banjo higher in the rankings later. But I think thereís a few outlying factors in Banjoís favor that'll explain why when I get there.

And I donít think I even need to go into detail why I think Banjo outranks both Bayonetta and Joker.

Though it kind of also goes a bit further then just all the 3rd parties. Banjo might be the most merited Ultimate newcomer thus far as well. Amongst the first party cast, only Ridley and K. Rool are his competition for the top spot.

Starting with K. Rool, they are very similar in that both are very much characters that are synonymous with Rareís legacy. Though I look at it like this. Banjo is the main character of his own franchise, while K. Roolís the villain of Donkey Kongís. In most cases, I think a new franchise should have more merit then an additional rep (Though general age of the character and/or franchise may make this vary) from an already represented franchise even in cases of K. Rool having been one of, if not the most requested newcomer in the ballot. Maybe thatís a little hypocritical since I still have K. Rool above Simon. But one of the factors I get into ranking is how much the general Smash fanbase has supported them. Not saying thatís the only factor, like if Geno ever got in this game he wouldnít immediately be at the top just because heís had this huge cult following since Brawl (Iíd still probably at least put him above Isabelle at least as Iíd count Geno as kind of the legacy character of the Mario RPGs, but below Simon for sure). Another example regarding new franchises vs. more reps of already represented franchise, imagine if Tails got in who is my most wanted after Sonic. Iíd probably do a joke ranking at first where I immediately put him on top. But on the actual honest ranking, Iíd probably put him where Geno would be too. Below Simon, but above Isabelle. Regardless, itís awesome to have both these beloved characters that were designed by Rare back in full glory in Smash. Banjoís trailer being like a sequel to K. Roolís was very appropriate.

And now as for Ridley. Honestly copy and paste a few things I said during K. Roolís. Ridleyís an additional Metroid character. While Banjo is his own beast per se. Banjo does have a similarity with Ridley in they seem to be both characters people have wanted to play as since Melee. Just because of legalities, Banjo has felt like he was impossible. Even more so then the dreaded size arguments that Ridley has gone through over the years. I do think thereís probably a fair share of quiet Banjo fans that have submitted to Banjo never happening all because of Microsoftís hold on the franchise, so while they have Banjo in their hopes and dreams. They generally flocked to other characters. But perhaps a strong showing at the ballot, willing partners on Microsoftís side like Phil Spencer, and Microsoft seeing the dollar signs in their eyes of Smash DLC. Really brought Banjo to the limelight here.

And itís that seeming difficulty and impossibility that I think really brings Banjo over the top here. Banjo is a character that might of gotten in as far back as Melee, he was even mentioned in the old polls. Microsoft buying out Rare changed things immensely in an unfortunate way for many fans of the bear and bird duo. Aside from a strange GBA game, there wasnít much in store for the franchise until the Xbox 360 eraÖ where the fanbase was graced with Nuts and Bolts. Which is best summed up by a certain JonTron reaction.



After that, itís just remained dormant under Microsoftís watch aside from an aforementioned appearance in the first Sonic and Sega All-Stars Racing game. Which was cool for certain, but still not exactly a big return that the franchiseís old fans have wanted. It wasnít just that Banjo was owned by Microsoft, it was also because he was generally neglected that resulted in people thinking he was an impossibility. Like even if Microsoft did agree to let a character in, there was talk that they may prefer say Master Chief for a full mind blow or even Minecraftís Steve (Which I reiterate, I wouldnít have had such a bad reaction to it myself. But itís what most Banjo fans were fearing) simply because it looked like they wouldnít care.

But then what sounded like a miracle came during the time for Smash 4ís DLC period. Phil Spencer, the head of Xbox. Gave his consent.

Though even at that time it still felt a little too good to be true. Sure Phil would say that, but if Banjo still never made it. Itíd only go back in history as among the many companies who would say as part of a marketing ploy saying that theyíd like their characters in Smash. But never actually even gets that far. (Though to fair, that did kind of get us the Shovel Knight assist trophy and Shantae spirits). But it must of had an impact, because as it turned out this Ballot was more so for Ultimate more then it was for Smash 4. I just think the whole deal with Microsoft definitely had to make it wait for DLC though.

Regardless, just think about the perspective here. Nintendo made a deal with a company that is in outright competition with them for consumers. Again, Microsoft is still trying to sell Xboxes. And again, Microsoft plans to continue making new consoles in the future. Because of this. Banjo getting in Smash feels closer to if Sonic had gotten in the first Smash Bros. or even Melee. Fresh off the rivalry between the two companies back in the early 90ís. Yet somehow whether thatís through the sheer prestige of Sakurai, the Smash Bros. franchise as a whole, and/or just very willing partners on both side of the negotiating table. They brought back on what was surely a very requested character that doesnít even have any new games coming that would be profitable to market yet for Microsoft unless you count Rare Replay which are just ports of the games. And a long-lost Nintendo character that has finally at least for this one game, come back home where many fans who grew up with a Nintendo 64 was waiting for them.

I very much heartily welcome Banjo & Kazooie to Smash Bros. The most ultimate newcomer of Smash Ultimateís additions.



And now finally the rankings. Hero just manages to jump over Simon for representing multiple generations of Dragon Quest history. As well as Dragon Quest itself being an influential franchise on gaming as a whole for JRPGs. Characters like Cloud and Shulk have a lot to thank Dragon Quest for. But where they kind of falter is how they werenít exactly characters that popped up a lot in terms of Smash choices compared to the likes of Ridley and K. Rool. Though itís very possible that the Japanese side of the ballot had many Dragon Quest characters requested and thatís how The Hero came to have multiple iterations of the protagonist.

Meanwhile, Iíve kind of already said enough about Banjo. Has been a want since Melee, is a brand new franchise, and the sheer perceived difficulty and the return of a character that has been pretty dormant for years just amplify this to huge levels that somehow bring this above both the end of the Too Big memes and perhaps the most requested first party Newcomer from the ballot. Banjoís the type of inclusion that reminds me again why I love awaiting who the next Smash character will be. I may hit bumps and falls along the way such as with Dark Pit, or Piranha Plant. But at the end of the day, Smash still provides us with some of the best and most welcome inclusions ever. Not every inclusion will hit itís mark with everybody. But when you get a character that truly, truly, belongs or at least you really, really wanted. For longtime gamers, thereís almost nothing better then that feeling.

UNIQUE RANKINGS

#1. Banjo-Kazooie
#2. Ridley
#3. King K. Rool
#4. The Hero
#5. Simon Belmont
#6. Isabelle
#7. Inklings
#8. Incineroar
#9. Joker

ECHO FIGHTER RANKINGS

#1. Ken
#2. Dark Samus
#3. Chrom
#4. Daisy
#5. Richter Belmont

SONICMARIO.EXE IS BROKEN

#WHO CARES? BANJO IS HERE!. Piranha Plant

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Re: Smash Bros. Character Merit (Ultimate Edition)
« Reply #111 on: June 12, 2019, 08:40:43 PM »
I must say, Banjo & Kazooie was a pretty dang amazing reveal.  I mean, I have literally no history with his games, but knowing just how much of a dream come true that was for many people...I fully agree with what you said.  Truly the most ultimate newcomer for Ultimate yet.

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Re: Smash Bros. Character Merit (Ultimate Edition)
« Reply #112 on: June 13, 2019, 02:00:19 AM »
And while many of us in the west wonít exactly share the same sentiment. Perhaps in time weíll come to find just what Japan sees in these characters that made them the video game equivalent of rock stars over there.
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