Author Topic: Suggestions for next year  (Read 1761 times)

Anton

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Suggestions for next year
« on: August 11, 2017, 09:08:32 PM »
In a continuous effort to improve, please tell us things that could be changed, or new ideas, new awards, nominees, what worked, what didn't work, anything, we will look over everything posted in here.

I'll lob some thoughts and ideas in here eventually, such as:

*Do Something about Biggest Missed Opportunity, as it's routinely a Herculean effort to tally and edit, even with a bot to help



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Re: Suggestions for next year
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2017, 09:27:10 PM »
let's do the scavenger hunt again

this thing is complicated and sometimes sneaky and i really like it

Anton

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Re: Suggestions for next year
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2017, 09:37:58 PM »
Quote
21:36   Snack   17   O. Mario Kart: Double Dash!!   4   0.18% tfw this is in m29
21:36   Anton{Politoed}   whoops

this reminds me, next year we're moving the generations so GCN/GBA are Classic



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Re: Suggestions for next year
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2017, 09:44:21 PM »
next year we're moving the generations so GCN/GBA are Classic
It's a subtle message to Nintendo to put Gamecube games on Virtual Console.

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Re: Suggestions for next year
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2017, 02:57:08 AM »
Maybe have Favourite Mario Party Board as a new award? It seems logical, we have favourite Mario Kart course and favourite battle course, so it would follow that we do the same thing for Mario Party, especially seeing as it has more instalments. All the boards have different designs, layouts and gimmicks, so it would give them all enough differentiation, and they're quite like the courses for the game anyway.

Anton

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Re: Suggestions for next year
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2017, 03:26:06 AM »
*Ensure that there is a 3 week work period (2 weeks normal, 1 after soft deadline) for presentations, as time isn't real and can create situations like this year where our general schedule of events doesn't change but we're allotted only 2 weeks



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Re: Suggestions for next year
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2017, 04:32:11 AM »
see write ins more critically, for example this year i saw things we had in favorite level/mario kart course and vice versa went into the opposite award as a write in (with multiple write ins)

Anton

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Re: Suggestions for next year
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2017, 04:44:43 AM »
see write ins more critically, for example this year i saw things we had in favorite level/mario kart course and vice versa went into the opposite award as a write in (with multiple write ins)

That's a goal every year and idk how exactly to put into words just how difficult this is with the sheer bulk of write-in votes that are cast.  It's no joke when I say these flubbed write-ins where they're flip-flopped between like Classic/Modern Game, 2D/3D/RPG Level, or even Mario Party Minigames that didn't exist and people just made up but sound like something could exist because we've got actual demons who vote in these polls, flooding the write-ins in the hundreds.  Errors this year that slipped through were certainly less than previous years, so it's improvement and making more improvements is always good, but I literally have no idea what else to do other than either have more people look over them for quadruple checking or having it take substantially longer to get the results out to people because remember that everything is tallied within pretty much 2 days before it starts setting everyone else back.

We try to rely on the presenters also having a keen eye, and that did help snag quite a few of them, but of course a few still did slip through.  With that said, the only thing I can propose to alleviate this without creating a cascade of delays would be to just push each presenter to be the final set of eyes on the quality check, because I know I'm not aware of every bit of detailed information in the entire Marioverse, but the person doing a specific detailed presentation just might be.



The most serious of these errors this year, being:
Quote
21:36   Snack   17   O. Mario Kart: Double Dash!!   4   0.18% tfw this is in m29
21:36   Anton{Politoed}   whoops
having only affected at most 0.03% of one placement, and 0.01% of a few others, none of this altering the placement of any others, of course.

I have just manually corrected and updated both the script and snack's presentation.  The rest are all individual write-ins that will not affect anything in a meaningful way other than just having to be removed.  In these cases, being you finding an error, please send me a PM about it.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 05:28:49 AM by Anton »



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Re: Suggestions for next year
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2017, 05:35:44 AM »
I guess so I just wanted to mention it again because things placing poorly in the award they're and being written in to another implies to me they're maybe in the wrong category

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Re: Suggestions for next year
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2017, 07:06:14 AM »
gbatoad brought this up a while ago and i wanted to make it public on his behalf

what should be done next year with awards mafia and killing game? having both will likely lead to one overlapping the other, like what happened this year, and could also lead to players not being as interested in whichever game comes after due to burnout or other reasons. one idea he had was starting one game right away, at the very start of all the tournaments, and having the other game start later into the season; another idea he had was simply going with one or the other, based off popular support, and cramming all our efforts into that game.

i'm honestly not sure myself what's the best course of action. killing game was a smash hit and i know a lot of people would want to do another, but awards mafia is a staple of the ceremonies as well, and has been for years, and i'd hate to see it go. what does everyone else think?



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Re: Suggestions for next year
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2017, 07:25:35 AM »
Well I did want to bring that up, but more towards the end of AM6 when we start evaluating player participation and what things worked/didnt work

Having two player-input heavy events back to back is stressful for people who want to participate in both, so its clear something needs to be done about the timing if we do both again next year.

Ideally, the number of players we have for each game remains the same as it did this year, and we only have to adjust the timing/end dates. Now that we have the experience to coordinate two games like this I don't see why we shouldn't have both if people still want both.

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Re: Suggestions for next year
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2017, 08:46:00 AM »
As someone who played in the KG and is still alive in Awards Mafia, I will say that having two back-to back games were you need to be active almost constantly is pretty time-consuming and can lead to being burnt-out quite easily. The KG in particular has a lot to go through in a phase, where every player needs to have day-to-day discussion and because it's not like mafia where most people are hiding their info, which means that there's a lot to catch up on. Going from the KG almost immediately to Awards Mafia kinda drained some of my motivation (being new to both probably didn't help either) and since both take at least two weeks to finish, a larger break would be welcome.

KG was a heap of fun so of course I want it next year, Awards Mafia is pretty good as well so far so I wouldn't want to see it go, even if it hasn't been as active as I thought it would be. It's much more complex than the other mafia games I've played here (granted, vanilla and vigilante-only mafias aren't exactly complex) which makes it a much more immersive experience than the rest. Ideally I want both with a larger break, like what GBA said. I'm not sure which order would be better to go in tbh, Awards Mafia should be longer theoretically so it would probably be better to have that last, like with this year.

You two (and Superchao) have had it even harder since you go from playing one straight into hosting. I think a larger gap would help out the hosts as well as the players.

Btw I feel like next years KG will probably have more players since people now know what it's about and how it works, so they'll want to join in, which could possibly mean it becomes even longer, so that's something we should make sure to factor in.

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Re: Suggestions for next year
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2017, 03:57:02 PM »
see write ins more critically, for example this year i saw things we had in favorite level/mario kart course and vice versa went into the opposite award as a write in (with multiple write ins)

That's a goal every year and idk how exactly to put into words just how difficult this is with the sheer bulk of write-in votes that are cast.  It's no joke when I say these flubbed write-ins where they're flip-flopped between like Classic/Modern Game, 2D/3D/RPG Level, or even Mario Party Minigames that didn't exist and people just made up but sound like something could exist because we've got actual demons who vote in these polls, flooding the write-ins in the hundreds.  Errors this year that slipped through were certainly less than previous years, so it's improvement and making more improvements is always good, but I literally have no idea what else to do other than either have more people look over them for quadruple checking or having it take substantially longer to get the results out to people because remember that everything is tallied within pretty much 2 days before it starts setting everyone else back.

We try to rely on the presenters also having a keen eye, and that did help snag quite a few of them, but of course a few still did slip through.  With that said, the only thing I can propose to alleviate this without creating a cascade of delays would be to just push each presenter to be the final set of eyes on the quality check, because I know I'm not aware of every bit of detailed information in the entire Marioverse, but the person doing a specific detailed presentation just might be.



The most serious of these errors this year, being:
Quote
21:36   Snack   17   O. Mario Kart: Double Dash!!   4   0.18% tfw this is in m29
21:36   Anton{Politoed}   whoops
having only affected at most 0.03% of one placement, and 0.01% of a few others, none of this altering the placement of any others, of course.

I have just manually corrected and updated both the script and snack's presentation.  The rest are all individual write-ins that will not affect anything in a meaningful way other than just having to be removed.  In these cases, being you finding an error, please send me a PM about it.

I would like to emphasize this, because it cannot be stressed enough.

I've been part of the tallying process during the 10th incarnation of the Mario Awards, and the amount of potentially erroneous votes is monumental. It's not just 5 odd votes per award, the number can and often does reach into the hundreds. That's per individual award, not in total. That amounts to thousands of votes that have to be cross-referenced, discussed, merged, discarded, or renamed. As Anton said, not all of the invalid votes are obvious. Some errors are subtle and blend in with others. Some require research and discussion. It's not just working through a checklist.

The total amount of votes that had to be manually checked and processed this year was 4487. Working on this was a team of around 4 people who were under a strict deadline and had to do this in two days. Errors can happen under this setup, and "pay more attention" is not going to rectify the situation. The people who do the tallying are human, and they did the best they could to minimize errors. The fact that, out of several thousands, all but a handful of votes that slipped through the cracks were correctly assigned is commendable, and should be seen as a net positive instead of a negative.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 03:58:34 PM by Mr. Edo »

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Anton

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Re: Suggestions for next year
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2017, 03:40:57 AM »
gbatoad brought this up a while ago and i wanted to make it public on his behalf

what should be done next year with awards mafia and killing game? having both will likely lead to one overlapping the other, like what happened this year, and could also lead to players not being as interested in whichever game comes after due to burnout or other reasons. one idea he had was starting one game right away, at the very start of all the tournaments, and having the other game start later into the season; another idea he had was simply going with one or the other, based off popular support, and cramming all our efforts into that game.

i'm honestly not sure myself what's the best course of action. killing game was a smash hit and i know a lot of people would want to do another, but awards mafia is a staple of the ceremonies as well, and has been for years, and i'd hate to see it go. what does everyone else think?

Well basically GBA's post
Well I did want to bring that up, but more towards the end of AM6 when we start evaluating player participation and what things worked/didnt work

Having two player-input heavy events back to back is stressful for people who want to participate in both, so its clear something needs to be done about the timing if we do both again next year.

Ideally, the number of players we have for each game remains the same as it did this year, and we only have to adjust the timing/end dates. Now that we have the experience to coordinate two games like this I don't see why we shouldn't have both if people still want both.
is the tl;dr of my opinion

I already talked with you directly on a solution a while back, though, that being running Killing Game earlier by having the sign-ups posted before June and then have the game start right away when tournaments open up, which is conveniently also what GBA suggested.  Also afaik mafia and kg didn't overlap this year, and if they did it was like the absolute tail end of one and the no-one's-actually-even-playing-yet of the other.

Mafia is indeed a staple and I would like it to stay, and I'm refraining from making too many comments about it now in fear of implying meta-game information on the one currently running but tl;dr if we're going to keep it people should actually want to play it, instead of just not doing a dang thing for 47 hours and then begging for an extension because you guys suddenly realized no one voted or sent in actions, as well as not relying on a strategy that's heavily built around randomly voting people and demanding they cough up all game knowledge they know and offer up an alternative vote, not being satisfied with that, then forcing 100% of their role out of them.  The mafia strategy this community employs is honestly super garbage and I don't understand how anyone can find it fun, and it certainly shows with how inactive people are.  A solution I proposed last year to help alleviate the stagnation of this would be to have a smaller mafia game or two (i.e. Uniju Mafia and similar) where people can have a mafia game experience without needing to dedicate their life and mental stability to it, and be short enough to hold interest for the full duration, with perhaps one being more light-hearted and another being more intensive based on individual player tastes.  Ideally the player amount will be lower, with there being another game as the remedy to more people wanting to play.

words

I agree with much of this post, except

Btw I feel like next years KG will probably have more players since people now know what it's about and how it works, so they'll want to join in, which could possibly mean it becomes even longer, so that's something we should make sure to factor in.

Having more players to it will directly make the game take longer, as it's 1 kill/night, with only rare exceptions that there's 2, and a host discretion of letting the final few survivors exit the game together instead of getting down to the last one standing.  As it was, KG this year necessitated the involvement of every player (minus a few slackers) for pretty much 24/7 for several weeks, with that hyperbole not being far from the actual truth.  Too many people had to focus on it for their entire free time to make it entertaining, and if we add more people to it that puts a large pool of the active tournament participants focusing on just one game for 1/3 of the summer.  I simply can't sanction that as part of the awards.  Simply saying "there needs to be more space" doesn't work when you're also saying KG should have more people and Mafia should theoretically be longer.  There's only so much time in the summer, and June being KG, July being presentations, and August being the ceremony with Mafia crammed around it literally will not work.  If a game that large is to be ran independently, gr8, but tournaments within the awards season under our umbrella need to cooperate with each other so everyone can fit in.

Additionally, as I have already discussed publicly in chat as well as more in detail with some people, I felt that KG relies way too heavily on host involvement and RNG, and I genuinely don't see how much actual gameplay there is to it when the short of it is that everyone sends in a story and then a name is pulled from a hat to see who gets killed, then the host just writes the story from that.  Now, I didn't actually play it, and didn't have too much time to observe every facet of this, but the people I've talked to who did play it didn't refute me when I stated things like that.  There needs to be less RNG.  That is a must.  There needs to be some higher level of player involvement in the story.  If a more complex plan is given more weight than "I kill someone because idk i just do" then gr8, keep up with that, and perhaps put more focus on it.  One solution was some rudimentary stats, a la dnd, and points during the night where players are given choices on how to proceed given certain events that have happened through the night, effectively giving them either a chance to defend themselves or a chance to set up other situations so that what happens isn't mostly reliant on how the host themselves pieces it together.



tl;dr on my ideas for solutions:

*KG needs to start earlier, and have either the same or less players as this year, and needs to actually be made more into a game rather than a patchwork RNG story.  I'm just sketched out that the host theoretically has that much power over what happens, and therefore who wins and subsequently how tokens are allocated.  If there's overwhelming interest in having more players, it absolutely needs to run faster and not require so much attention.
*Mafia is fine as it is assuming people actually bother playing it, but a smaller game or two wouldn't hurt to be tried



Also I do realize that this post is pretty heavy on the criticisms and light on elaborating my solutions, but putting a spotlight on what needs fixed is key in coming up with worthwhile solutions.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 03:42:35 AM by Anton »



Anton

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Re: Suggestions for next year
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2017, 03:56:32 AM »
Quote
3:53   Lord_Bowser   tbf a fair amount of the rng was due to the fact that i was running it alone this year
03:54   Lord_Bowser   i needed something to speed up the process so results and phases wouldnt take a really long time
03:54   Anton{Politoed}   ok so another host would fix that :thumbup:
03:55   Lord_Bowser   yeah many of your concerns would be alleviated with an additional host or two
03:55   Anton{Politoed}   but who
03:55   Anton{Politoed}   `lottery
03:55   GameServ   Mariofan169
03:55   Anton{Politoed}   you have been chosen

Rintarou Okabe

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Re: Suggestions for next year
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2017, 04:05:53 AM »
Well fwiw I wasn't even talking about errors but more like fundamentally misplaced choice options

Anton

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Re: Suggestions for next year
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2017, 04:16:39 AM »
I don't understand the difference you're trying to make, isn't that not an error subject to how we already addressed it?



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Re: Suggestions for next year
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2017, 04:29:20 AM »
No in my opinion that's not an error, not quite sure what you're referring to

Anton

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Re: Suggestions for next year
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2017, 04:46:00 AM »
I literally have no idea what you're saying or how it's immune to the response edo and I already made.  I clearly addressed the type of thing you're saying, whether you quantify it as an "error" in your personal vocabulary or not.

Edit:   if you're saying, for example, mkdd should have been in Classic game to begin with (i.e. "fundamentally misplaced choice option") I also already addressed that with the fact that we're budging the console generations down one to reshape Classic/Modern as we hurdle through time.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 04:55:17 AM by Anton »



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Re: Suggestions for next year
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2017, 05:13:55 AM »
yeah what you said in the edit + other categories this applies to

like for example if something placed badly in one category and has been written in to the other you could consider moving it (ie from worst x to best x), is all.