The Clone Wars: General discussion on clones in the SSB series

GalacticPetey

Donkey Kong
One of the most controversial aspects of the franchise is the implementation of clone characters into the game. Smash 64 had Luigi and arguably Jigglypuff (really stretching for that one), but Melee was the game that really went to the extreme with clones. Luigi received changes which turned him into a semi-clone and Kirby received new moves that distanced him even further from Jigglypuff. In addition, we received Dr. Mario, Young Link, Ganondorf, Pichu, Falco, and Roy who were clones of existing characters. Ganondorf had three unique moves, Pichu had one, but the rest had copied moves. However, the clones had different physics and properties on their moves that greatly changed how they played. Fox and Falco in melee play nothing alike and Marth and Roy are worlds apart on the tier list.

Brawl did away with a few clones. Getting rid of Doc, Young Link, Pichu, Roy (and Mewtwo, but that's another story). Falco and Ganondorf stayed due to them being more relevant characters and they got more changes to promote them to semi-clone status. Luigi got altered even further. We received two new semi-clones, being Toon Link and Lucas. Unlike the Melee clones, these two had much more variety in their moveset. Now I'm sure you're wondering, what about Wolf? Well, I don't even consider Wolf to be a semi-clone. This page does a great job breaking down the differences between clones in games and formulates a percent base don how similar they are. As you can see, only about 28% of Wolf's moves are derived from Fox. Even then, they differ greatly in their usage and appearance. One other interesting thing to note is that Dr. Mario and Roy were actually planned for Brawl. Make you wonder how, or even if, they would have been decloned.

Smash 4 brought back the more Melee-like clones. Dr. Mario made his return alongside Dark Pit and Lucina. Sakurai has gone on record saying these three were planned as alts and were made into their own characters for a number of reasons. He felt Dr. Mario using fire and FLUDD would look weird and he didn't want to alienate and offend the people who played Doc in Melee. Do to changes to Mario as well as a few new tweaks to Doc, he doesn't feel as much like a 1-1 reskin of Mario. Not enough to be considered a semi-clone though. Dark Pit was altered because it would be odd for him to use the Three Sacred Treasures. Dark Pit has a slightly different side b and a different final smash, but for the most part, he plays identically to Pit. Hell, Smashboards actually combined their character boards. Lucina's moves are all identical to Marth's except for the damage done. Marth's blade has a sweetspot at the tip and Lucina's is the same throughout. Unless you're bad at spacing, not much point in playing Lucina. It's interesting to note that Alph was planned to be a semi-clone that used Rock Pikman, but was cut.

Luigi returns, with even more changes. A new down throw, some more unique animations, and vastly different customs from Mario are really seperating the two characters. Toon Link, Falco and Ganondorf don't receive as many changes as they did during the transition to Brawl, but they all have unique custom moves unlike Doc, Dark Pit, and Lucina who share customs. Roy and Lucas return as DLC. Not much has changed with Lucas, but Ness now has his moves as customs. Roy has received many changes in animation to his attacks, along with a new ftilt, fsmash, and down air. Marth's changes to his neutral b have also separated the pair.

So what do you guys think of clones? Love 'em? Hate 'em? Indifferent? Here are a few topics for discussion:

-Do you mind the addition of clones? Do you enjoy them or see them as a hindrance to the game?

-If Doc and Roy did come back in Brawl like intended, how do you think they would have been changed?

-How would you change any of the clones?

-What clone characters would you potentially want to see?

-Should Doc, Lucina, and Dark Pit have been kept as alts? Should Alph have been playable as well?
 
GalacticPetey said:
-Do you mind the addition of clones? Do you enjoy them or see them as a hindrance to the game?

For me it's a case-by-case basis. I am definitely okay with the type of clones we got in Brawl where at their core they seem very similar to another character. But fundamentally actually play quite different. Just because I like playing as Ness doesn't mean I have the same feel for playing Lucas as trying to play as Lucas doing the same strategies you do as ness just doesn't work for many reasons. It's some of the Melee Clones plus Dark Pit that grind my gears a little though. They feel like unnecessary padding.

-If Doc and Roy did come back in Brawl like intended, how do you think they would have been changed?

We'll never really know for sure. I think the massive work that was put on Subspace is what prevented the Forbidden 7 from inclusion. If Brawl had been more like Smash 4 where there wasn't some big mode that was a hinderance on the development. Then we certainly could of gotten everybody found within in the data files. Possibly more. It's one thing where the lack of a big mode actually helped Smash 4 because more focus could be put on the Characters and at the end of the day that's what people care about most in Smash.

-How would you change any of the clones?

It seems weird that in Smash 4 that Fox has the better air-game and Falco has the better ground games since of course Falco is a bird and Fox is well... a Fox. I'd kinda think that'd be switched up. So maybe Falco could use a little aerial help.

Ganondorf no doubt is one that'd be nice to see some changes. But probably won't for as long Sakurai is involved. There is the obvious need for Ganon's sword. But some more dark magic moves would be very appreciated too. Or at the very least, keep Ganondorf as he is now. And have a Classic Ganon as a newcomer. Every Zelda newcomer since Melee has been one of or an alternate version of the Triforce 3 so... why not?

Toon Link is an improvement upon Young Link in Melee. Though it would be nice to have some more Wind Waker stuff get included in the moveset.

For the others I'm either fine as they are or don't really care enough about the character to talk about making them different.

-What clone characters would you potentially want to see?

Well no one wants a true clone. But some ideas for good and iconic potential semi-clone characters certainly go on my mind. If K. Rool can't make it, just add Dixie who'd be a change-up from Diddy. And I think Tails would make a good Sonic Semi-Clone as long as the similar moves are mainly the Spin Dash, and a speed that's relatively similar. (I imagine'd Tails as lighter, weaker, maybe a tiny bit slower then Sonic, but more combo potential and a great recovery)

-Should Doc, Lucina, and Dark Pit have been kept as alts? Should Alph have been playable as well?[/b]

Doctor Mario and Dark Pit, definitely yes. Lucina's kinda weird. Sure they had Wii Fit Trainer, Robin, and coming soon Corrin. But the difference is they're the same character whether they're male or female. Marth and Lucina are different characters through and through and it may feel a little odd to have a popular Awakening character just share a spot with Marth. Yes there's the Koopalings but that'a a different situation that the Clown Car is what puts out most of the attacks for the exception of when the Hammer is being used. So it's relatively easy to just have a different model for the Driver.

And on Alph, I certainly would have taken Alph being made a clone over both Dr. Mario and Dark Pit. I would of accepted Lucina and Alph. The fact that Alph is an alt just makes Dr. Mario and Dark Pit's inclusion even more baffling.
 
I don't know why people hate on them so much, people cry over Dark Pit "taking King K. Rool's place", but he most likely took less than 1% of development time. Dark Pit and Lucina were going to be costumes but Sakurai decided to make them playable characters to make their fans happy. It would be nice if Ganon was given a more unique moveset though.
 
I like clones. I usually tend to gravitate towards them

Like

Dr. Mario>Mario
Toon Link>>>>Link
Young Link>>>Link
Roy>>>Marth
Falco>>>Fox
Luigi>>>>>>>Mario

So I don't mind them getting added. What I do mind is that it takes extra time to 100% the game.
 
I like the idea of having alternate playstyles of a character, even if one tends to be much better or worse than their counterpart (Fox and Falco in Melee/Brawl were lucky). I'd rather see altered moves be on clone characters instead of some diarrhea move swap system like custom specials turned out to be, either way.

Northern Verve said:
It seems weird that in Smash 4 that Fox has the better air-game and Falco has the better ground games since of course Falco is a bird and Fox is well... a Fox. I'd kinda think that'd be switched up. So maybe Falco could use a little aerial help.
Pretty sure Falco has better air movement and aerials and Fox has way better smashes and tilts but whatever
 
Naturally they have different attributes and moves. Some choose to ignore those factors and just hate the character because they share a few moves.
 
Kirby and Ike share a move (two if Kirby swallows Ike) and...they're not even considered semi-clones.
 
Fundamentally, pretty sure all characters share at least one move with another if you're willing to stretch things that far.
 
Tiff said:
The moves are similar, but there are a enough differences to make them feel different.
*slow claps*

Toon Link would like to have a word with you.


(Also, Final Smash. These types of Final Smashes are common, yes, but that plus Final Cutter/Aether and Ike being swallowed could make Kirby considered a semi-clone.)
Baby Luigi said:
Fundamentally, pretty sure all characters share at least one move with another if you're willing to stretch things that far.
But not three two and a half.
 
Kirby isn't even close to being a semi-clone of Ike. He has completely different properties than Ike. I can't even begin to describe the differences from each other.
 
Baby Luigi said:
Kirby isn't even close to being a semi-clone of Ike. He has completely different properties than Ike. I can't even begin to describe the differences from each other.
This.

There's only so many ways you can show vertical movement with a sword, so there will be similarities. Is Link an Ice Climbers semi-clone because they both have down airs where they thrust their weapon down?

Also, why are you including Kirby swallow moves? By that reasoning everyone's a Kirby semi-clone, which is ludicrous.
 
Baby Luigi said:
Kirby isn't even close to being a semi-clone of Ike. He has completely different properties than Ike. I can't even begin to describe the differences from each other.
some random guy on the Smash Wiki said:
As of Smash 4, Luigi's position as semi-clone of Mario is heavily debatable, as the characters' physics are noticeably different, over half of their standard & special attacks are unique, and even several of their shared moves have different hitbox placements and function differently from each other.
GalacticPetey said:
Baby Luigi said:
Kirby isn't even close to being a semi-clone of Ike. He has completely different properties than Ike. I can't even begin to describe the differences from each other.
This.

There's only so many ways you can show vertical movement with a sword, so there will be similarities. Is Link an Ice Climbers semi-clone because they both have down airs where they thrust their weapon down?

Also, why are you including Kirby swallow moves? By that reasoning everyone's a Kirby semi-clone, which is ludicrous.
First off, Kirby swallow moves are what everybody uses when they use Kirby.
Second off, *rubs eyes* The Ice Climbers are a semi-clone of Link?!
 
That argument doesn't mean that Kirby and Ike are any closer to each other than Mario and Luigi are to each other.

The fact that there's even a debate surrounding Luigi's status as a semi-clone to Mario as opposed to Kirby and Ike should tell you that Kirby and Ike are as obvious as day they are not semi-clones.
 
The only two similar specials between Kirby and Ike are Kirby and Ike's up special, and Kirby's down special, and Ike's neutral special. The latter is only slightly similar when used on ground, and isn't similar in air.
 
Time Turner said:
GalacticPetey said:
If Fox and Wolf aren't even semi-clones, then Ike and Kirby are about as far away as you can get.
They aren't? Some of their moves have different properties, but they're ostensibly the same.
Aside from their specials, which all have pretty different properties, they share no moves.
 
A meeting during the development of Brawl:
Sakurai: Alright, we need a new Fire Emblem character. Any ideas?
Developer 1: How about Ike? He's a main character in the new Fire Emblem.
Sakurai: Good idea. But what should his moveset be?
*a moment of silence as everyone thinks*
Developer 2: How about... we make him a clone of, uh... Kirby? *looks hopefully at Sakurai*
*awkward silence*
Sakurai:...
Sakurai: THAT'S THE GREATEST IDEA I'VE EVER HEARD!!!
*Developer breathes a sigh of relief as everyone cheers*
 
Baby Luigi said:
That argument doesn't mean that Kirby and Ike are any closer to each other than Mario and Luigi are to each other.

The fact that there's even a debate surrounding Luigi's status as a semi-clone to Mario as opposed to Kirby and Ike should tell you that Kirby and Ike are as obvious as day they are not semi-clones.
Mmm-hmm. Kirby and Ike are more similar in the special move category.
GalacticPetey said:
If Fox and Wolf aren't even semi-clones, then Ike and Kirby are about as far away as you can get.
another guy from the Smash Wiki said:
Fox and Wolf are sometimes seen as semi-clones due to their special moves and Final Smash being mostly identical in operation.
Luigi 64DD said:
A meeting during the development of Brawl:
Sakurai: Alright, we need a new Fire Emblem character. Any ideas?
Developer 1: How about Ike? He's a main character in the new Fire Emblem.
Sakurai: Good idea. But what should his moveset be?
*a moment of silence as everyone thinks*
Developer 2: How about... we make him a clone of, uh... Kirby? *looks hopefully at Sakurai*
*awkward silence*
Sakurai:...
Sakurai: THAT'S THE GREATEST IDEA I'VE EVER HEARD!!!
*Developer breathes a sigh of relief as everyone cheers*
This.
 
SuperDoom said:
Mmm-hmm. Kirby and Ike are more similar in the special move category.

Ping me back the day Ike can turn into a rock, suck in people to eat them, and can wield a fiery wooden hammer.
 
Baby Luigi said:
Ping me back the day Ike can turn into a rock, suck in people to eat them, and can wield a fiery wooden hammer.
Now that brings up an interesting mental picture.
 
Baby Luigi said:
SuperDoom said:
Mmm-hmm. Kirby and Ike are more similar in the special move category.

Ping me back the day Ike can turn into a rock, suck in people to eat them, and can wield a fiery wooden hammer.
PM me the day Ike drops his sword. The side specials are very similar, just Ike's charges.
 
SuperDoom said:
Baby Luigi said:
SuperDoom said:
Mmm-hmm. Kirby and Ike are more similar in the special move category.

Ping me back the day Ike can turn into a rock, suck in people to eat them, and can wield a fiery wooden hammer.
PM me the day Ike drops his sword. The side specials are very similar, just Ike's charges.
You're really stretching. Is any horizontal, disjointed hitbox the same now?
 
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