"Memes" section on "List of Mario references on the web" page

In my opinion, it's probably worth mentioning Mario-related memes on the List of Mario references on the Web page, if not the main articles. Other NIWA wikis, such as Bulbapedia and SmashWiki, make minor references to memes, and occasionally hold news articles about them, so I don't see why MarioWiki shouldn't mention memes on a page entirely about fan references to Mario on the web.

However, there should also be standards in place, so I propose only creating sections for entries that have a "confirmed" status on KnowYourMeme (bonus points if the meme also has an explanation video, like with Weegee). Some would be in the appropriate sections (such as "Luigi wins by doing absolutely nothing" being in the YouTube section), while others not related to any specific site/game would be in their own section (labeled "Memes"). Would this be acceptable?

our editors have traditionally reverted mention of memes on game pages, but the truth of the matter is that way back in 2012, the staff talked about it and we agreed it was acceptable t off-handely mention memes like weegee and youtube poop in trivia sections, but it died because nobody could write an entry everyone liked. And well, writing about weegee wasn't exactly top-priority.

Some may reflexely balk at the thought of covering ~dank memes~, but the content isn't that far removed from pages created in recent years like http://www.mariowiki.com/List_of_rumors_and_urban_legends_about_Mario and http://www.mariowiki.com/List_of_Mario_knockoffs_acknowledged_by_Nintendo . I mean, if Donkey Kong Country's creators make "expand dong" jokes...

I think the biggest concern is that stuff about memes and fan culture invariably attract terrible editors and... low-quality content... but the if the AIDS is quarantined to one page and there are objective standards for inclusion, I think this could work out OK. I'm completely opposed to mentioning memes on character and game pages, though.

(Incidentally, I don't know if you're the editor who just added a ton of meme listing on the Web references page, but if you are: it's a generally adviseable idea to refrain from adding controversial content *until* the discussion has come to a consencus)

If we're going to cover memes and other similar Internet content, I'd prefer if we stuck to ones that have been referenced by Nintendo in some way. If only to prevent the gates from bursting open.

Ryu said:

However, there should also be standards in place, so I propose only creating sections for entries that have a "confirmed" status on KnowYourMeme (bonus points if the meme also has an explanation video, like with Weegee). Some would be in the appropriate sections (such as "Luigi wins by doing absolutely nothing" being in the YouTube section), while others not related to any specific site/game would be in their own section (labeled "Memes"). Would this be acceptable?

Click to expand...

What are the criteria for inclusion in KnowYourMeme's?

Because I'm up for extremely rigorous standards on memes. Also, we need to address their longevity before we can go around including them. Weegee is pretty much classic at this point, but I don't know how long "expand dong" "jokes" are going to last or if they're going to die off quickly.

Time Turner said:

If we're going to cover memes and other similar Internet content, I'd prefer if we stuck to ones that have been referenced by Nintendo in some way. If only to prevent the gates from bursting open.

Click to expand...

Hmm, like the Luigi Death Stare one...

I'm mostly against the inclusions of memes though. Do we mention fan-games that get really popular 'round the web? Like, say, Super Mario Bros. X or mods like Newer Super Mario Bros. Wii? No? Why don't we? Mostly because, even though it's a slippery slop fallacy, the criteria of what belongs in that page and what doesn't is extremely foggy and it could open gates to more of these things because of their vagueness around the web. We aren't dealing with precise information and documenting what happened, we're going off by multiple and various of these things and only listing them because they're "popular" around the web, no matter how prevalent they are. However, there are various memes that are acknowledge by Nintendo, mainly the death stare thing from Mary-o Kratt Ate, in which I think that's fine listing because it's precise information, instead of mowing around in internet forums and whatnot.

We do mention Super Mario Bros. X and other notable fan projects:

http://www.mariowiki.com/List_of_Mario_knockoffs_acknowledged_by_Nintendo

We acknowledge them only if Nintendo took like legal action against them, in which.....in SMBX's case....they sorta did according to the creator, but it's not confirmed for that. As for memes, is there a single time where Nintendo referenced the Expand Dongs or Weegees?

Baby Luigi said:

As for memes, is there a single time where Nintendo referenced the Expand Dongs

Click to expand...

Nintendo no, but Playtonic Games (which is made of Rare alumnis that worked on the DKC series) did: https://twitter.com/PlaytonicGames/status/582937158253719552

Memes reflect the impact of Mario on popular culture, so I agree that it's worth listing the legitimately popular ones on the refs page, as long as we don't go crazy and mention every last shitty little meme (like, every new meme needs to be discussed, maybe use google search result numbers as a bellwether, etc.), mention them everywhere (the MiM's sprite's second life could be worth mentioning on the game page, and a note on how Hotel Mario's cutscenes are infamously bad but no specific reference to YT poops could be fine), or start making articles about 'em (a "Weegee" redirect notwithstanding - currently it links to Luigi, but perhaps it could go to the meme list instead? A disambig page would probably be too much tho, lol). Nintendo/developer-acknowledgement definitely works as a criteria, so yes to the Death Stare and Expand Dong; Weegee is SO pervasive, it'd be silly to NOT say anything, and as long as we don't link to any specific poops; mentioning how Hotel Mario provides lots of fodder would make sense too (i.e. "all toasters toast toast" nets over 100,000 Google hits, "wendy's pennies pinch back" has 277,000, "lotsa spaghetti" over 90,000, and "where there's smoke, there's fire mario" has 132,000 - a lot of those are probably bycatch, but still, as a whole, it's a fair chunk of meme); maybe the Lanky Kong stuff too, but I dunno that one too well.

Time Turner said:

If we're going to cover memes and other similar Internet content, I'd prefer if we stuck to ones that have been referenced by Nintendo in some way. If only to prevent the gates from bursting open.

Click to expand...

I agree with this stance. I'm fine with it if Nintendo references it or acknowledges it in a later game.

Walkazo said:

Memes reflect the impact of Mario on popular culture, so I agree that it's worth listing the legitimately popular ones on the refs page, as long as we don't go crazy and mention every last *bleep*ty little meme (like, every new meme needs to be discussed, maybe use google search result numbers as a bellwether, etc.), mention them everywhere (the MiM's sprite's second life could be worth mentioning on the game page, and a note on how Hotel Mario's cutscenes are infamously bad but no specific reference to YT poops could be fine), or start making articles about 'em (a "Weegee" redirect notwithstanding - currently it links to Luigi, but perhaps it could go to the meme list instead? A disambig page would probably be too much tho, lol). Nintendo/developer-acknowledgement definitely works as a criteria, so yes to the Death Stare and Expand Dong; Weegee is SO pervasive, it'd be silly to NOT say anything, and as long as we don't link to any specific poops; mentioning how Hotel Mario provides lots of fodder would make sense too (i.e. "all toasters toast toast" nets over 100,000 Google hits, "wendy's pennies pinch back" has 277,000, "lotsa spaghetti" over 90,000, and "where there's smoke, there's fire mario" has 132,000 - a lot of those are probably bycatch, but still, as a whole, it's a fair chunk of meme); maybe the Lanky Kong stuff too, but I dunno that one too well.

Click to expand...

I agree with your reasoning. There's a fine line between acknowledging Mario's impact on internet culture and randomly saying "look guys it sounds like he said 'Gay Luigi!'" on a wiki page. Maybe there can be a set of guidelines for whether to acknowledge a meme or not on the page. You're definitely right that Weegee and the death stare are significant enough; Expand Dong is more debatable, but the fact that Playtonic Games themselves used the meme gives it a bit more credibility. I'll go delete the HE entry since it's barely significant compared to the others so far.

Perhaps "confirmed" status on KYM can be a necessary, but not sufficient, condition for acknowledging a meme, since it's a good barometer of whether a meme is worth considering in the first place. Here are the site's guidelines, in case it helps: http://knowyourmeme.com/blog/rules-and-guidelines

BTW, about YouTube Poop, there were interviews with both Marc Graue and Phil Harnage where they acknowledged it and gave their opinions on it. Maybe that'll give it more credibility, but whatever the case, individual poops or catchphrases used in them shouldn't be referenced on the wiki IMO - only the phenomenon in general, if at all.

Raigh said:

Time Turner said:

If we're going to cover memes and other similar Internet content, I'd prefer if we stuck to ones that have been referenced by Nintendo in some way. If only to prevent the gates from bursting open.

Click to expand...

I agree with this stance. I'm fine with it if Nintendo references it or acknowledges it in a later game.

Click to expand...

I personally think that would be a bit too strict. It'd probably be one of the easiest guidelines to implement (short of banning meme mentions entirely), but it hardly makes sense when you realize that almost all the non-meme entries on the list of references have not been acknowledged by Nintendo.

I understand that a lot of people add poor-quality information on memes when they're allowed on MarioWiki (I've seen a few myself). However, given that Bulbapedia, ZeldaWiki and other NIWA wikis allow them to be mentioned, being overly restrictive about it kinda makes us seem jarringly oblivious to Mario's influence on internet culture, which has become pretty big at this point. As a side note, it also makes us come across as the uptight "no fun allowed" guys - which is ironic when the franchise we're covering has a more fun and colorful vibe than the other wikis'. As such, I'd be more than willing to help make sure that any references to memes are high-quality and make sense (akin to Bulbapedia's standards), whether or not they're restricted to the references page.

. As a side note, it also makes us come across as the uptight "no fun allowed" guys - which is ironic when the franchise we're covering has a more fun and colorful vibe than the other wikis'.

Click to expand...

I'm not opposed to covering dank may-mays on the wiki, but this is bad reasoning for several reasons:

1: The only criteria for joining NIWA is being an independantly-hosted Nintendo wiki with a reasonable amount of content. One of NIWA's principle is that it won't impose changes on its members, unlike the wiki farms it rant(ed) against. What Other Wikis Do is not relevant.

2: The same "it makes us look uptight and no fun" reasoning can also be used toward justifying undesirable (for us) stuff other wikis do, but we don't. Zelda Wiki has fan theories pages, Bulbapedia has shipping pages, Smashwiki covers the competitive scene... etc. I can safely say preciously few of our members wants to have shipping pages.

3: You're making it sound like meme coverage is unanimously desired by our readers, when opinion on that kind of content is a lot more mixed. Like a month ago, someone here linked to a (now-deleted) Gamefaqs thread where the OP complained about... the lack of memes on the wiki... but the thread backfired, with most of the responses being among the lines of "Wait, this wiki doesn't cover stupid memes? That's great!"

Per Glowsquid.

The fact that we don't deal with "fun" things like mods and fanfiction is a good thing - if anything, I'd be more concerned about degrading that image if we act too willy-nilly with the memes. But as long as we're discriminate about what we include, professional in the write-ups, and keep it focused on the pop culture influence stuff and isolated to where that material is appropriate, it should be fine.

Ryu said:

Walkazo said:

Memes reflect the impact of Mario on popular culture, so I agree that it's worth listing the legitimately popular ones on the refs page, as long as we don't go crazy and mention every last *bleep*ty little meme (like, every new meme needs to be discussed, maybe use google search result numbers as a bellwether, etc.), mention them everywhere (the MiM's sprite's second life could be worth mentioning on the game page, and a note on how Hotel Mario's cutscenes are infamously bad but no specific reference to YT poops could be fine), or start making articles about 'em (a "Weegee" redirect notwithstanding - currently it links to Luigi, but perhaps it could go to the meme list instead? A disambig page would probably be too much tho, lol). Nintendo/developer-acknowledgement definitely works as a criteria, so yes to the Death Stare and Expand Dong; Weegee is SO pervasive, it'd be silly to NOT say anything, and as long as we don't link to any specific poops; mentioning how Hotel Mario provides lots of fodder would make sense too (i.e. "all toasters toast toast" nets over 100,000 Google hits, "wendy's pennies pinch back" has 277,000, "lotsa spaghetti" over 90,000, and "where there's smoke, there's fire mario" has 132,000 - a lot of those are probably bycatch, but still, as a whole, it's a fair chunk of meme); maybe the Lanky Kong stuff too, but I dunno that one too well.

Click to expand...

I agree with your reasoning. There's a fine line between acknowledging Mario's impact on internet culture and randomly saying "look guys it sounds like he said 'Gay Luigi!'" on a wiki page. Maybe there can be a set of guidelines for whether to acknowledge a meme or not on the page. You're definitely right that Weegee and the death stare are significant enough; Expand Dong is more debatable, but the fact that Playtonic Games themselves used the meme gives it a bit more credibility. I'll go delete the HE entry since it's barely significant compared to the others so far.

Perhaps "confirmed" status on KYM can be a necessary, but not sufficient, condition for acknowledging a meme, since it's a good barometer of whether a meme is worth considering in the first place. Here are the site's guidelines, in case it helps: http://knowyourmeme.com/blog/rules-and-guidelines

BTW, about YouTube Poop, there were interviews with both Marc Graue and Phil Harnage where they acknowledged it and gave their opinions on it. Maybe that'll give it more credibility, but whatever the case, individual poops or catchphrases used in them shouldn't be referenced on the wiki IMO - only the phenomenon in general, if at all.

Click to expand...

A confirmed KYM entry could also definitely be a requirement, but I'd rather we be a lot more choosy than the site as a whole, so not necessarily every meme they cover, we'd cover. On the other hand, being acknowledged by Nintendo and/or staff involved in the development of the source material of the meme would pretty much guarantee inclusion, but if we can agree that an unacknowledged meme is major enough, we should be able to include them too (on that note, your other post's point that the rest of the page's contents aren't acknowledged is quite valid). Of course, importance is very subjective: approaching or over 100,000 Google hits could be another thing to keep in mind, but ultimately, every meme should be discussed first, like how Guest Appearances (MarioWiki:Coverage#Guest_appearances) can't be added without a proposal (but just discussions for memes, not proposals).

God to know about the YT Poop mention by those guys - getting the links to the interviews would definitely be essential for that section.

the source for marc graue is http://cdii.blogspot.ca/2008/07/marc-graue-voice-over-of-mario-in-hotel.html

Awesome.

https://twitter.com/SuperMarioFact/status/679119598470475777

hahaha, brilliant

Why does the wiki call it "angry"? It's not, it's just determined. Angry would be, like, twitching Luigi from Strikers Charged.

I'm neither for or against covering memes on here and I'll accept the staff's decision on it.

If they decide to allow it, I agree that we need to be highly selective on which ones should be allowed. They should be very notable while acknowledgement by official sources (such as developers like Nintendo or staff from the cartoons) should take a higher priority. For example, Luigi's death stare could be a candidate since some news sources have picked it up. On the other hand, Drunken Mario/Mario's golden shroom tequilas could NOT be a candidate since only 3 other people (before I brought it up here) are aware of it because that came from my Super Mario World stream and said 3 other people were my pals who were watching it.

Also would it be possible to prevent new users from editing it to reduce the chances of low-quality content on the "list of memes" article? Like set it to where you need to have been active for about a month before editing it? You guys can fine tune the requirements to whatever's most suitable.

The web reference page is already protected so that you need to be autoconfirmed to edit it.